[Ambassadors] 2009-03-05 FAMSCO Meeting Summary

[Thomas Canniot <thomas canniot mrtomlinux org>]

Hello and welcome to this seventh FAMSCO weekly meeting summary.

The latest meeting was hold on March 05th 2009 on #fedora-meeting

Attendees:
Francesco Fugolini
Max Spevack
Joerg Simon
ThomasCanniot
David Nalley
Rodrigo Padula

Regreted attendees:
Susmit Shannigrahi


Francesco starts by announcing the meeting agenda :
1. Ambassadors Policies Coordination
2. Current tasks review
3. Budget

1. Ambassadors Policies Coordination
Francesco reminded everyone the aim of FAmSCo

"We are policy makers, we were elected to organize Ambassadors 
Project, and one of the main way is through policies".  

The conversation focused on the differences between "regional" 
decisions, and "global" decisions.

Everyone agreed that the way we handle these two decisions are 
different.

For regional decisions -- what events to attend, how much swag to 
purchase, etc. -- the authority is left to the regional leaders.

For global decisions -- policy that impacts all Ambassadors -- the 
authority is left to FAmSCo.

We then discussed the specific issue of the Country List page, and the 
best way to clean that page up, and maintain it in the future.

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/CountryList

While this sort of decision is a "global" one that should be left to 
FAmSCo, we were not clear about making that known last week, and that 
led to a confusing thread that ended up on Fedora Ambassadors list.

"Please REPLY to this mail (or you will be *removed* from the 
Ambassadors Country list.)"  

To prevent misunderstandings like this in the future, we decided:

-- FAmSCo has to be more firm about the decisions it makes in his 
meetings.

-- FAmSCo is not going to micromanage the Ambassadors regions, and 
leaves this to Regional Leaders.

-- The CountryList page is to be made obsolete, then deleted, and 
replaced by an automatically created wiki page, based on Fedora 
Account System information. This task is to be handled by Joerg Simon.

-- Contact wiki pages, on the responsibility of Regional Leaders, are 
to be created for each region with primary contacts information in 
them. These will be used as entry points for people who need to 
contact Ambassadors. This task is to be handled by Max Spevack.  

By this time, we were over an hour, and the rest of the agenda was 
cancelled.

Francesco adjourned the meeting.

You can read the attached meeting log for detailed information.

Title: 2009-03-05-famsco.log

2009-03-05-famsco.log

fugolini	10 minutes, then FAmSCo meeting	18:49
RodrigoPadula	Hello Guys!	18:58
ke4qqq	hi RodrigoPadula	18:58
RodrigoPadula	famsco meeting now ?	18:58
fugolini	hi	18:59
fugolini	yes, one minute	18:59
MrTom	hi	18:59
fugolini	Ok, who is here?	19:00
* ke4qqq is		19:00
* MrTom is		19:00
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fugolini	So, roll call please:	19:02
fugolini	Francesco Ugolini	19:02
MrTom	Thomas Canniot	19:02
ke4qqq	David Nalley	19:02
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spevack	Max Spevack	19:03
spevack	ke4qqq: sorry you had to miss the trip to CUE	19:03
RodrigoPadula	Rodrigo Padula	19:03
... leave!#fedora-meeting -> mcepl()		19:04
kital	JoergSimon	19:04
fugolini	Great! Now, today agenda:	19:04
* RodrigoPadula low power :(		19:04
fugolini	1. Ambassadors Policies Coordination	19:04
fugolini	2. Current tasks review	19:04
fugolini	3. Budget	19:04
ke4qqq	spevack: me too!	19:04
fugolini	RodrigoPadula: I'll be brief	19:04
fugolini	1. Ambassadors Policies Coordination	19:04
fugolini	Let me start with this really important task.	19:04
fugolini	As you know one of our primarily task is making policies	19:05
fugolini	what this mean? We should be able to understand What to do, how to do it and, then, make sure what we have decided will be applied in the best way possible.	19:06
fugolini	FAmSCo cannot monitor case per case (for material reasons) the correct application of the approved policies. This means it's necessary the involvment of local contacts in order to point each country in the right direct.	19:06
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fugolini	In a schematic way this is what this means: <Ambassadors> FAmSCo -> Local Contacts -> Country coordinators </Ambassadors>	19:06
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spevack	!	19:07
fugolini	spevack:	19:07
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* fugolini is talking about policy application		19:08
spevack	just a clarification in terms -- I prefer to say FAMSCO -> Regional Leaders -> all other ambassadors	19:08
spevack	does that change the meaning of what you are trying to say?	19:08
spevack	Regional/Country Leaders is most correct, I suppose3	19:09
spevack	EOF	19:09
fugolini	no, it's correct. I just add country coordinators, because I see each country, or more of the existing one, have some people who are in contact with Regional leader	19:09
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spevack	ok.  sorry to interrupt!	19:10
fugolini	spevack: no problem, interrupt me when it's needed	19:10
fugolini	From the current experience, I see that sometime there are missing chain passage (starting from FAmSCo), that leave country coordinators a not well defined guidelines.	19:11
fugolini	See, for example, the "CountryList transformation" discussion. It's clear that we need to give all the details needed to have a equivalent application of the policy around the world.	19:11
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fugolini	but, before this, we need to be in direct, constant contact with Regional Leader: after they will get in touch with the local community	19:12
fugolini	(and, if not directly, through local coordinators)	19:13
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fugolini	spevack: tell me if something seems not clear	19:14
spevack	fugolini: it seems to me that what you are getting at is this:	19:14
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spevack	FAMSCO needs to take personal responsibility for ensuring that the conversation between regional leaders is happening often, and that we are doing everything we can to make sure that there is clear communication to them, because they are the ones who are then leading those regions/countries.	19:15
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spevack	fugolini: for example, there is a NA regional meeting tonight.	19:15
fugolini	spevack: 100% right :), in few words you focus the concept	19:16
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spevack	for me, it is at 3 AM, so I cannot attend.  But I know to talk with ke4qqq and herlo and inode0 after the meeting to make sure that we share information	19:16
spevack	EOF	19:16
fugolini	spevack: great	19:16
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* RodrigoPadula come back		19:16
kital	?	19:16
fugolini	kital:	19:16
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kital	fugolini what do you mean with "one of our primarily task is making policies"	19:17
* RodrigoPadula at BR Sales Kick-off		19:17
fugolini	that one of our main task is giving a structure that could simplify but	19:18
fugolini	coordinate ambassador project	19:18
fugolini	*and	19:18
spevack	RodrigoPadula: they still won't write me back about the duplicator.  i'm getting angry.  you see my emails.	19:18
fugolini	It's not the only one. I'm not talking about Ambassadors Project task, I'm talking about FAmSCo	19:18
fugolini	kital: have i clarified the point?	19:19
kital	maybe i get it later ;)	19:19
kital	thanks	19:19
kital	eof	19:19
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spevack	kital: i think fugolini means that one of famsco's jobs is to deal with the "global policies" that all ambassadors follow, like event reports, etc.	19:20
fugolini	We are policy makers, we were elected to organize Ambassadors Project, and one of the main way is through policies	19:20
fugolini	spevack: right	19:20
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fugolini	I want this point to be clear in order to move forward. Isn't it?	19:21
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kital	it is clear	19:21
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fugolini	So, this is, concretely what I have in mind:	19:21
fugolini	1. When we take a decision/ approve a policy we need to set some deadlines.	19:22
fugolini	this is a must. We need to be able to give Regional Leader some guidelines to better address the changes (i'll talk briefly about this during the "country list" example)	19:23
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fugolini	2. Regional leader should work talking with the community and make sure it has understand: the aims, the consequences and the actions to do	19:25
fugolini	3. FAmSCo should monitor policy application	19:26
kital	ok - but what policy?	19:26
spevack	this seems fine.  What are the decisions that currently need to be made?	19:26
spevack	kital: exactly :)	19:26
fugolini	sure, here it is:	19:27
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fugolini	You know we decided to work on the Country List transformation (forgive me if i used this word)	19:27
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fugolini	We have missed the first point of this scheme. We had to give all the details needed to have a equivalent application of the policy around the world.	19:28
fugolini	*an	19:28
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spevack	fugolini: i'm a bit confused, i'm sorry.	19:28
spevack	I understand the *general* point that you are making	19:28
spevack	and I agree with it.	19:28
fugolini	Re: [Ambassadors] Please REPLY to this mail (or you will be *removed* from the Ambassadors Country list.)	19:28
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spevack	ahhh	19:29
spevack	now i understand!	19:29
fugolini	We have broken the chain since the beginning and this was the result.	19:29
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fugolini	It was mine fault and this is why I thought to discuss with all the local contacts and FAmSCo members	19:29
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* MrTom still doesn't		19:29
kital	!	19:29
fugolini	kital:	19:29
spevack	!	19:29
kital	i know that what i say now is very unpopular but we can only change the quality of ambassadors if we establish a higher entry level	19:30
kital	in nearly every other group you have to prove your willingness and ability to contribute	19:30
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fugolini	kital: the problem is not what it was asked, but how it was asked.	19:30
spevack	hang on, everyone	19:30
kital	we can not have both good quality and good quantity	19:30
spevack	we have two different topics coming together here	19:30
spevack		19:30
spevack	the fist topic is what francesco is talking about in a *general case*.	19:31
fugolini	http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassador_status_discussion	19:31
spevack	That is this: "FAMSCo believes that there is a better way to organize the Country List, and we would like to make that a task that we are going to pursue."	19:31
kital	this is what i mean with quality	19:31
kital	we have a closed list to reduce stupid answers	19:31
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kital	but	19:31
kital	even after big STOP from me as the list admin the users did not stop	19:32
fugolini	kital: now, I'm not talking about the content of the emails, just the way the policy application was handle locally.	19:32
spevack	fugolini's point is that we decided we wanted to do something about the country list -- and that this decision is *related* to the active/inactive question -- but before we clearly had a plan of action, one region of the world started an email chain about removing people.	19:32
kital	the only thing what i will do next time is put them on moderation	19:32
kital	eof	19:32
spevack	Francesco's point is that this email chain should never have been started, because that wasn't the plan that we had agreed upon.	19:32
fugolini	+1	19:33
spevack	And francesco's further point -- and this is IMPORTANT -- is that the fault for this is not with susmit, but with FAMSCO collectively -- for not being more clear	19:33
spevack	that last point is the MOST IMPORTANT ONE that francesco is trying to make.	19:33
spevack	EOF	19:33
spevack	fugolini: am i right?	19:33
fugolini	100% right	19:33
spevack	MrTom: does that make more sense now?	19:33
MrTom	yep thanks	19:34
spevack	fugolini: so the solution to this is that we must be more firm in our meetings and on famsco-list about saying "we have decided to do $FOO, and here are the steps and responsibilities"	19:34
spevack	that's all.	19:34
spevack	it's a learning lesson for everyone.	19:34
spevack	EOF	19:34
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fugolini	spevack: right	19:34
ke4qqq	?	19:34
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fugolini	this what at the end the point	19:34
fugolini	ke4qqq:	19:34
ke4qqq	so I am concerned that I don't want us to micromanage the regions or locales.... for instance my knowledge of the LATAM environment is next to nil, I know a handful of people there, but that's it, I'd feel awkward telling them how to do something	19:35
spevack	ke4qqq: that's a good point.	19:35
ke4qqq	and more broadly trying to make every region the same	19:36
spevack	and in my opinion, there are two separate issues again.	19:36
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spevack	the day to day management of a region -- organizing events, getting swag to the right places, trusting people with budget -- this is left entirely to the regional leadership	19:36
spevack	though budget stuff does include me by necessity at times.	19:36
spevack	and i don't think we should mess with that at all	19:36
spevack	we have built a model of local accountability that is good.	19:36
spevack		19:36
spevack	now	19:36
spevack	the slightly separate issue	19:37
spevack	is in this particulare case of a global initiative -- here something as simple as cleaning up the CountryList page	19:37
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spevack	which really doesn't have anything to do with a particula region	19:37
spevack	was suddenly turned into a regional issue, when it didn't need to be, and led to a lot of distraction, confusion, etc.	19:37
spevack		19:37
spevack	so the lesson	19:37
spevack	IMHO	19:37
spevack	is to separate the regional management, which we have done well i think, from the administrative global stuff, which we are supposed to take care of without causing trouble for the regions.	19:38
spevack	EOF	19:38
spevack	ke4qqq: your thoughts, sir.	19:38
ke4qqq	that's a good delineation I think	19:38
spevack	fugolini: does that make sense?  is that what you're trying to say?  do you agree?	19:38
fugolini	absolutely. You are better than me giving the right concept in few word	19:39
fugolini	*s	19:39
fugolini	I think we should take note of this, maybe creating a wiki page, in order to have a memory of this	19:40
fugolini	and we have to apply it now with the current discussion	19:40
fugolini	we have set as goal: clean CountryList and we have to achive this one, isn't it? :)	19:41
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spevack	fugolini: and who is responsible for that goal?	19:41
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fugolini	I could work on this task, naturally, if there are volunteers I don't want to	19:42
kital	!	19:42
fugolini	predominate	19:42
fugolini	kital:	19:42
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kital	the country list is planned as a list where regional leaders have their local contacts ?	19:43
fugolini	sure	19:43
kital	not the Country List we have already - and where the cleanup should happen	19:44
kital	?	19:44
spevack	my opinion:	19:44
spevack	this page	19:44
kital	i hope by the end of the month toshio will establish the new FAS changes	19:44
spevack	https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/CountryList	19:44
spevack	is relatively useless.	19:44
spevack	why is it useless?	19:44
spevack	because it requires a manual update, and while this was ok 2 years ago	19:45
spevack	now Ambassadors is too big, and growing too fast.	19:45
spevack	just look at the list of people on there	19:45
spevack	who don't even have a wiki home page.	19:45
spevack		19:45
spevack	now	19:45
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spevack	it should be replaced with TWO SEPARATE things	19:45
kital	then we are able to use  people_by_key to create the automated countrylist	19:45
MrTom	and because it duplicates informations ... we shloud have the country list extracted from fas	19:45
spevack	(1) an automated country list	19:45
spevack	coming from FAS	19:45
spevack	exactly right	19:45
spevack		19:45
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spevack	(2) a simple page that shows the primary contacts for any given region	19:46
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ke4qqq	!	19:46
spevack	like thi sone	19:46
spevack	https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/NA/Regions	19:46
spevack	but for the whole world	19:46
spevack	EOF	19:46
kital	ok thats a statement :)	19:47
fugolini	+1	19:47
ke4qqq	so I like the idea of (2) but honestly don't see the purpose of (1) even if automated. Is there one?? If the intent is to have people contact regional leaders then at best it dilutes (2)	19:47
spevack	ke4qqq: (1) simply fills the need for people who care about a global directory of ambassadors, but yeah, i kind of agree with you.  (2) is far more important than (1)	19:48
spevack	and (1) actually takes work, where (2) is a little bit of work, but mostly organizational	19:48
ke4qqq	spevack: who are those people?	19:48
MrTom	well, isn't the NA wiki page a local "country list" page ? I find it too big (or maybe NA is too big and the list very small)	19:48
spevack	ke4qqq: i don't know :)	19:48
spevack	ke4qqq: but i'm not one of them	19:49
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ke4qqq	MrTom: it is, and It should be condensed	19:49
spevack	MrTom: you refer to this page	19:49
ke4qqq	spevack: neither am I	19:49
spevack	https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/NA/Regions	19:49
kital	10 minutes left for the meeting	19:49
ke4qqq	I think we should prefer to purge the countrylist page	19:49
fugolini	I think for point 2, the collaboration of local leaders is needed	19:49
ke4qqq	and create (2)	19:49
spevack	ke4qqq: +1	19:49
spevack	fugolini: and those local leaders are all here in famsco	19:49
fugolini	in fact :)	19:50
MrTom	and maybe 2 or 3 local contacts would be enough	19:50
kital	so the automated country list is no longer needed?	19:50
MrTom	for each regions	19:50
spevack	kital: what do you think?	19:50
ke4qqq	kital: it has a place, but I don't think it should be public, personally.	19:50
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kital	ok	19:50
spevack	if we were to vote, here is how I would write it -- "Should we remove the CountryList, and replace it with a regional contact page for the entire world, based off of the work that the North American region has already done?"	19:51
kital	last week this was high prio :P	19:51
fugolini	MrTom: I think local contacts should be whatever could be able to give a usefull answer to people	19:51
fugolini	*whoever	19:51
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fugolini	spevack: I think we should make a vote, just to have a point to start	19:52
kital	Should we remove the CountryList - not for me	19:52
MrTom	would the local contact list be manually created ?	19:52
spevack	MrTom: in my vision, it would be manually created by the leaders of each region.	19:52
spevack	kital: may i ask why you feel we need the CountryList, either in its manual or automated form?	19:53
fugolini	that's the reason of a coordination	19:53
kital	when i want to be a Ambassador and do not want to depend on a regional leader how can i be found	19:53
kital	is it a must to be a team player?	19:53
ke4qqq	perhaps we'd have each region have a page and transclude it to a single page?	19:53
ke4qqq	kital: not you don't have to be a team player....but it does solve the problem that started this entire conversation	19:53
kital	btw - i am a teamplayer ;)	19:54
ke4qqq	:)	19:54
fugolini	kital: we are a horizontal community, with someone with more responsability. I think we are all a team, but we working in local team. I think we should encourage team (group) work	19:54
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spevack	look	19:54
spevack	i think compromise is easily reached here.	19:55
spevack	sort of what i said earlier.	19:55
spevack	while I personally tend to agree with ke4qqq that the CountryList might not be needed, I do understand why some people might find it useful, for reasons like what kital says.	19:55
spevack	so i would say that If and only If we can automate its generation, then it is still worth having as an "index of all ambassadors, generated fro FAS"	19:55
ke4qqq	kital: CountryList was one of the top 10 viewed pages on the wiki iirc.... I'd rather when people look at that they see people who we know will respond to them (assuming the people looking are outside the community) If we need such information - seems like we could build a script to query fas for famsco and the like.	19:56
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spevack	but the regional contact/leadership page, built in coordination with the regional leaders, is far more important.	19:56
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fugolini	ke4qqq: +1111	19:56
spevack	Let me ask this simple question:	19:56
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kital	ok how is the decission?	19:56
spevack	Do we all agree that the equivalent of CountryList should *either* be automatically generated or *not exist at all*?	19:57
spevack	That the manual process is broken?	19:57
kital	+1	19:57
spevack	Can we get a +1/-1 to that?	19:57
spevack	+1	19:57
ke4qqq	+1	19:57
fugolini	+1	19:57
MrTom	+1	19:57
spevack	RodrigoPadula: ?	19:57
spevack	i think rodrigo will agree ;)	19:58
RodrigoPadula	+1	19:58
spevack	either way, that's a lot of +1s	19:58
spevack	so.	19:58
RodrigoPadula	sorry, i'm slow because I'm in a meeting	19:58
spevack	so, now that we all agree on that.	19:58
spevack	I think that we should indicate on the CountryList page that it is going away in its current form and is going to be automated if possible.	19:59
kital	automated Countrylist will replace the verification page	19:59
spevack	great.  The question that remains is simply "who is leading this effort?"	20:00
kital	ich	20:00
kital	me	20:00
spevack	wonderful!  thank you!	20:00
spevack	now that this decision is made	20:00
spevack	the second decision is simple:	20:00
spevack	We use the NA regional page as an example, and ask each region to produce something similar, and NA to "refresh" their page.	20:01
... join!#fedora-meeting -> rharrison(n=rusharri nat/cisco/x-e6f601b7a18ade03)		20:01
spevack	then we combine it all together, and advertise the page like crazy.  It should become the most viewed page in all of Fedora Ambassadors	20:01
MrTom	+1	20:01
kital	+1	20:01
fugolini	That's why we need coordination, and I volunteer to help in this way	20:01
fugolini	+1	20:01
... signoff!#fedora-meeting -> stickster_food(Killed by ballard.freenode.net (Nick collision))		20:01
kital	ok my task is Countrylist will replace the verification page	20:02
delhage	?	20:02
... join!#fedora-meeting -> stickster_(n=nnnpfrie ip72-205-14-2 dc dc cox net)		20:03
spevack	delhage: go ahead	20:03
delhage	is that 1 page or 1 page per region?	20:03
fugolini	sure, I think we have brake the rule	20:03
... signoff!#fedora-meeting -> mdomsch("Leaving")		20:03
spevack	delhage: not sure yet, IMHO.	20:03
delhage	ok	20:03
ke4qqq	delhage: each region does a page and we transclude to a single, at least that's what I see.	20:03
spevack	delhage: maybe one landing page that links to individual regional pages.  One page would get really long.	20:03
delhage	makes sense	20:04
fugolini	right	20:04
spevack	ok...	20:04
ke4qqq	though countrylist is gigantic by those standards :)	20:04
spevack	so, that was a long hour, but I think in the end we all have managed to understand each other, make some decisions, and determine ownership of tasks, so I also consider it a valuable hour.	20:05
fugolini	ok, 1. we had kital for automated process	20:05
kital	yes	20:05
... signoff!#fedora-meeting -> stickster_(Connection reset by peer)		20:05
fugolini	1.  Automatically generated country list -> kital	20:05
spevack	fugolini: assign #2 to me	20:06
... join!#fedora-meeting -> stickster_(n=nnnnpfri ip72-205-14-2 dc dc cox net)		20:06
fugolini	ah ok	20:06
spevack	fugolini: the regional pages	20:06
fugolini	2. individual regional pages -> spevack	20:06
* spevack will also take care of the meeting log for tonight.		20:06
... nick!stickster_ -> stickster		20:06
fugolini	For the clarification of the wide process I'll write an email to Ambassadors, in order	20:06
fugolini	to avoid other broken-chain effect	20:07
spevack	fugolini: for double clarification, would you send your email to famsco-list first, so that we can see if there is anything in it that might cause more confusion? :)	20:07
... nick!stickster -> stickster_afk		20:07
... nick!stickster_afk -> stickster		20:07
MrTom	spevack, shouldn't i do it as i already write the summary ?	20:07
spevack	stickster: stop spamming our channel with your nick changes :)	20:07
fugolini	spevack: no problem. I'll do this.	20:07
spevack	MrTom: i was just going to run irc2html and send it to you :)	20:08
spevack	MrTom: but whatever, you can do it all :)	20:08
MrTom	if it's done, send it to me, i'll take care of it from next meeting	20:08
spevack	MrTom: ok	20:08
fugolini	spevack: anything from budget side to say?	20:08
spevack	fugolini: nothing that can't wait until next week :)	20:08
fugolini	perfect	20:09
fugolini	so we can adjourn the meeting, if there isn't something special to add.	20:09
fugolini	3	20:09
fugolini	2	20:09
spevack	thanks to all for your time tonight	20:09
fugolini	1	20:09
fugolini	== Meeting adjourned ==	20:09
fugolini	thank you spevack to have lead this discussion	20:09
delhage	thanks for letting me crash the party at the end ;)	20:10
spevack	fugolini: my pleasure.  I think I am good at summarizing what everyone is trying to say in a way that everyone can understand	20:10
spevack	delhage: i hope you encourage the others in #fedora-ambassadors to be equally bold :)	20:10
delhage	:)	20:11
... join!#fedora-meeting -> sparli(n=sparli nat/redhat-in/x-923b0e8e79d84eed)		20:13
... join!#fedora-meeting -> sdziallas(n=sebastia p57A2CFCD dip t-dialin net)		20:14

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