Fedora Freedom and linux-libre
jeff
moe at blagblagblag.org
Mon Jun 16 08:58:13 UTC 2008
Hans de Goede wrote:
> jeff wrote:
>> Hans de Goede wrote:
>>> Really, arguing that Fedora's stance is inconsistent, while in
>>> reality yours is doesn't gain you much respect. Either:
>>>
>>> 1) all firmware is software and must be free in which case support
>>> for evil hardware which comes with the firmware embedded must be
>>> removed from linux-libre!
>>
>> No, because the goal of linux-libre is to have a kernel which doesn't
>> distribute non-free software.
>>
>
> Oh, but promoting the usage and buying of devices which contain non-free
> firmware by supporting those is ok,
When have I ever done that??? You're just putting words in my mouth.
> because it isn't non-free firmware
> that is evil. It is the distributing of non-free firmware that is evil.
> Yes a very consistent and logical pov for which I applaud you!
I have never used the word evil wrt software. Again, you are putting words in
my mouth.
But not distributing non-free software is definitely a goal. It is also the
supposed mission of Fedora.
> Basicly the message you are sending is: people please by devices with
> firmware in rom, preferably otp rom, because then certainly there is no
> evil.
That's the message I'm sending?>?!? Again, you're just putting words in my
mouth. I've never said anything of the sort.
> Not being able to ever change the firmware is good, because as
> long as firmware never gets distributed separately from the hardware, we
> can pretend its not there and live our ignorance is bliss lifes thinking
> that we are in the all software in my house is free utopia. Because if I
> cannot see it it isn't there.
Uh, actually, I don't think that way at all. Again, you are just making things
up that you say I am thinking. For one, I know I'd *love* to remove the
non-free BIOS from my Eee, for example (and willing to pay developers to do that).
You're just making shit up.
> Really that I didn't think of this before, it is so brilliant! I guess I
> should do away with all my PC's and instead switch to an internet
> appliance device, because then I no longer have to worry about whether I
> have any non-free software at all. Certainly if I don't need to install
> the software myself it isn't there at all then.
We're talking about
* * * SOFTWARE THE FEDORA PROJECT IS ---> DISTRIBUTING <--- * * *
not about the hardware people already have.
>>> 2) all firmware is considered part of the hardware, independend of
>>> the distribution mechanism of that firmware (the Fedora pov).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---> No, the difference is Fedora is *DISTRIBUTING* the non-free
>> bits. <---
>
> So the goal of linux-libre is to not distribute non-free software. Do
> you ever buy a PC / laptop?
Yes.
> If so you're involved in a transaction which
> almost certainly involves the distribution of non-free firmware. Worse,
> not only are you involved in such a transaction, you are _paying_ for
> the system of which the non-free firmware is an integral part and thus
> you are paying for non-free firmware, thereby promoting the production
> of non-free firmware.
Yes, and that sucks. And stallman had to originally write emacs on SunOS or
whatever he used. It doesn't mean we should stop trying to make things free.
> Do you ever sell any of you PC hardware (motherboard, latop, printer)
> second hand and / or give it away to friends / family, then you are
> *DISTRIBUTING* non-free firmware. Really, they should put you in prison
> for that!
...
> Please stop being so hypocritical.
I'm not being hypocritical.
> Putting it simply there are 2 possible stances on non-free firmware:
Only 2?
> 1) Its evil
Well, this is wrong from the start because I don't even believe in evil. Anyway.
> and as such should be erradicated, therefor I will not buy
> or use
> any devices with it. Nor will I add support for any devices containing
> non-free firmware to my Free operating system
I see it more like RMS originally writing emacs on a proprietary system. Though
removing devices that *only* run with proprietary firmware may be a
possibility, though many devices run fine without the firmware (for example,
the tg3 will run without the firmware that's in the kernel).
> 2) Its evil, but allas it is here, so although we are not in favor it we
> condone it.
3) non-free software sucks and we should do our best to not distribute it.
But you're not *condoning* it you're ***DISTRIBUTING*** it.
> The its evil, but ok as long as not distributed vision is just plain
> hypocritical, so you are happy *USING* it, and passing device which
> contain it along to friends / family, but distributing it in a way where
> it is not hidden inside a device is not OK?
But I'm not claiming that is free software if I hand someone a macbook or
whatever. I'm also not happy if there is non-free software in there (but i'd
just install free software on there).
I think the "not OK" part comes in when you say that you are distributing
free/open software when you aren't and you know it.
> Anyways this will be my last mail in this thread, I cannot argue against
> so much hypocrisy and bend around corners logic.
So much hypocrisy? You just put tons of words in my mouth that I've never said.
Pfft.
-Jeff
More information about the fedora-devel-list
mailing list