kernel-devel in "Fedora" spin?

[Valent Turkovic]

On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 10:20 PM, Chris Snook <csnook at redhat.com> wrote:
> Josh Boyer wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 08:58:09PM -0400, Chris Snook wrote:
>>>
>>> Jesse Keating wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Back in December, I had made a change that blocked kernel-devel packages
>>>> from winding up in the install media for the Fedora spin.  I don't
>>>> recall getting any push back at the time, but I've gotten at least one
>>>> angry comment since then.  So I'm putting it out for more discussion.
>>>> Do we feel that the kernel-devel (5~megs) should be in the install
>>>> media?
>>>
>>> Yes please.  There's always new hardware we don't support yet, so some
>>> people will need to build drivers just to get online and access the repos.
>>>  If we ship it on the install media, it's much easier to distribute code
>>> that you're reasonably confident will work on a new install.  If people have
>>> to hunt down matching kernel and kernel-devel rpms, it's a moving target for
>>> people working on these device drivers.
>>>
>>> I'm not saying we should bend over backwards for out-of-tree drivers, but
>>> this is precisely the scenario that determines the first impression for
>>> someone trying this "Linux" thing on their shiny new bleeding-edge box, and
>>> it's pretty easy to accomodate.
>>
>> Erm... if this is the first time someone is trying a shiny new "Linux"
>> thing
>> on a bleeding edge box, and they have to grab a kernel-devel package and
>> build drivers _themselves_, then they are obviously smart enough  to run
>> 'yum install kernel-devel'.  Somehow I think your example is slightly off.
>> I don't know many Linux newbies that know 1) that they need to build a
>> driver, 2) what driver to build, and 3) what packages they need to build
>> it
>> all without knowing how to install anything.
>>
>> <jedi>
>> These are not the people you are targeting.  They know enough to not
>> require
>> kernel-devel on the install media.   You can move on to finding some other
>> use case that makes sense.
>> </jedi>
>>
>> josh
>>
>
> How are they going to 'yum install kernel-devel' with no internet
> connection? And how does the maintainer of the not-yet-merged driver ensure
> that his code always works with whatever kernel Fedora has rebased to today?
>  If you can be reasonably confident that every Fedora 10 user can at least
> get a certain matching kernel and kernel-devel, it's a lot easier to
> maintain drivers.  In theory you could build packages, but when you're doing
> this for Fedora, Debian, Ubuntu, CentOS, etc. it isn't really feasible.
>
> I know this is a niche use case, but it's a very large niche, and it's the
> niche that's most likely to become avid Linux users if we don't push them
> away the first time.  I know because I had this experience when I first
> started maintaining the atl2 network driver.  Tens of thousands of EeePC
> users, many of them technically savvy but Linux novices, wanted to replace
> the hacked up Xandros that ships on the Eee with something a bit more
> flexible, but they needed atl2 to make it work, and it wasn't merged in the
> distros yet.  When fast-moving distros like Fedora rebased their kernels to
> 2.6.24, my code broke, but the users who had kernel-devel or equivalent on
> their install media were fine, while the others either had to dig around to
> find a matching kernel and development headers, since only the latest were
> in the repos, or wait for me to fix it.
>
> The situation is much worse in the wireless world, where many of the drivers
> are reverse engineered and break on every new hardware rev, forcing users to
> install experimental stuff that isn't ready for merging in order to get
> their shiny new laptop online.
>
> I'm not saying that kernel-devel is an absolutely critical package to have
> on the install media, but it's extremely convenient at a time when users are
> most frustrated.  If we're going to trim the install media, which I'm not
> fundamentally opposed to, there are much more frivolous things that should
> go first.
>
> -- Chris
>
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>


+1

This package is extremely useful and would help a lot of users if it
was on the install media (too bad that Live CD has no space for it
also).

Cheers,
Valent.

-- 
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