Using elvis?

[Karsten Wade]

Did you mean to take this off-list?  I accidentally sent this message
directly to you yesterday before bouncing a copy to the list ... since
you are addressing issues that others have brought up, I'm going to save
myself the breath and push this back to fedora-docs-list.

On Sun, 2004-08-01 at 05:10, Dave Pawson wrote:
> On Sat, 2004-07-31 at 19:18, Karsten Wade wrote:
> 
> > I mean something a little more than that.  If we had CVS access
> > immediately, we would have zero documents to post and zero changes to
> > make to the website.  We have a very few bugs files against just the
> > Documentation Guide.
> 
> I've handed two documents over to Tammy. They aren't available.
> At least if they were in CVS they'd be there for someone else to pick
> up?

True.

> > 
> > We, meaning all of us contributing to the docs project, are not in
> > control of CVS access.  We are in control of the rest of this.  We can
> > write patches to the Doc Guide and pass them around the (archived)
> > mailing list.
> 
> And if they are not seen to arrive as Fedora documentation, we'd soon
> get pissed off?

I can't help it if someone gets pissed off; to be honest, I'm not in
much of a better situation -- I just write stuff for this project, and I
currently can't write to the Fedora CVS.  Still, I'd rather have a
number of items in the queue for when CVS shows up, than have a bunch of
whining in the queue.

This is my style, so you can use it or abuse it:  I'd rather do
everything within my power _first_ instead of waiting for Mom to fix it
all for me.  I see there being many things we, as a group, can do while
waiting for CVS.

> > So, some suggestions:
> > 
> > * If you have a suggestion for something to fix on any of the
> > fedora.redhat.com pages, file a bug, and please reply back to us here
> > with the details and the bugzilla number.
> 
> Never having used bugzilla:
>   Where does (our project) recommend this process.
>   What documents need scrutiny?
>   Where's the bugzilla page | instructions whatever?
> More hurdles Karsten?

In the middle of the page at http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ it
has always said the following; it can't be much clearer than this:

"Bug Reporting, Testing, and Quality Assurance

Before you file a bug, please read through the list of current and
previous bugs for fedora-docs to determine if your bug has already been
filed. If your bug does not exists, enter a bug report using the
Bugzilla bug entry page. If your bug exists and has not been fixed, add
additional information to the existing bug. If your bug exists and has
been fixed, upgrade to the version in the bug report to determine if the
bug was properly fixed. If it was not, reopen the bug.

Some other interesting Bugzilla queries:

      * All open bugs for fedora-docs
      * The requests for enhancements (RFEs) for fedora-docs"

Bugzilla is the tool for reporting problems and requesting features with
any aspect of Fedora.  This is no more a hurdle for Fedora docs project
than it is for Fedora Core.  Ultimately, it's a better-than-nothing
project management tool for maintainers.  Much easier to do a bugzilla
search for all open bugs than comb through this mailing list looking for
someone's suggested fix.

> > When CVS opens for us, we will have a lot of work to do, but it will be
> > good work, instead of starting from scratch.
> No note of this as an interim on the docs project page?
> Its dead meat as far as a project page goes.
> Gathering dust.

I don't have access to update that page.  If I were to suddenly have
that access tomorrow, I still don't know exactly what needs to be
updated on that page.  If every message on this list reporting what 
needs to be changed was a bugzilla report, we'd be much further ahead
than we are now.

> > 
> > > > 4. What should be on the fedora.redhat.com/docs pages _right_now_?
> > > 
> > > http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/  
> > > Is that a documentation page for fedora?
> > > There's a link to rh9 doco.
> > > No document list... 
> > >   What is that page for please?
> > 
> > As I understand it, this should be a list all of the documentation that
> > this project produces.  It is up to this project and it's leader to
> > decide what should be on that page, which is directly related to all
> > these questions I'm asking.
> 
> I don't see a Fedora docs project/leader?
> I see a few people willing to write, others wanting to,
> and nix back from Fedora|Redhat. 

I take my philosophy from this page:

http://fedora.redhat.com/about/leadership.html

"Leadership

Leadership in the Fedora Project will be post-facto recognition of
acting leaders, not appointment of people to start acting as leaders
after appointment. The leaders that we will recognize will be those who
lead by example, whose goals as expressed in their words and actions are
aligned with our goals (as stated in the Project Objectives and which we
expect to refine over time), and who are willing to be officially
recognized as leaders.

Note that this necessarily means that there will be people acting as
leaders who are not officially recognized on this web page. This is not
meant to denigrate them, or to imply that their opinions are not
worthwhile, or to say that their points are not considered. If the only
leaders we have are the ones that are officially recognized, then we'll
be a dying community. ..."

Right now what this means to me is that if I just say, "I can't do
anything about this stuff except complain, that's the leader's job to
fix," then I'm part of the problem and not the solution.

> > Anywhere on fedora.redhat.com, the left side of the window has a blue
> > stack of links to pages, that open up to reveal somewhat of a tree.  If
> > you click on Docs in that link (as I think many visitors might do), it
> > expands to show two documents, the Release Notes and the Jargon Buster,
> > the only successful scratch-to-webpage document from the Fedora docs
> > project.
> 
> So its pure future then for documentation.

I don't understand this idiom.  Do you mean that the future is wide-open
for creating new documentation?  If so, then I agree.

> > That nav bar needs to have more documents, or feeds into versions or
> > areas of documents.  We should recommend how that information flows, and
> > of course we need to be filling in the blanks with content. :)
> 
> The challenge is to get a user view of documentation. I think its real
> hard to find your way to 'the hole where documentation will be'.
> 
> As I see it, the links should be there, the end point being a document
> that says docs wanted on subject X, Subjects Y,Z A are being worked on
> .....

So ... there's this thread I started with the subject "what is ready for
fedora.redhat.com."  I think we should use that thread to gain consensus
about what changes we think should take place on the two docs pages,
then file a bugzilla report detailing the changes.  Would you like to
contribute your ideas to that thread, maybe even try out the bug
reporting?

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten Wade, RHCE, Tech Writer
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