FDSCo Meeting 2008-12-03 IRC log ... attached

Wed Dec 3 21:25:35 UTC 2008

Forgot to attach the log to the previous message. :)

-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
AD0E0C41
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11:20 -!- stickster changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Documentation
11:20 < quaid> <meeting>
11:20 < quaid> today I've got irc log and summary again
11:20 < quaid> ACTION: talk with FAMSCo, FESCo about time changes in room
11:20 < quaid> \-> quaid
11:20 < quaid> ACTION stickster to decree something project wide, s'il vous plait
11:21 < quaid> ok, then, welcome, and ...
11:21 < stickster> Yeah, done.
11:21 < bpepple> quaid: did you guys not move for DST?
11:21 < quaid> bpepple: we did, but FAMSCo didn't
11:21 < bpepple> ah.
11:21 < quaid> bpepple: we probably need to have everyone move with DST globally
11:21 < quaid> at the same time regardless of region
11:21 < quaid> "Fedora time"
11:21 < dwmw2_yoyo> 'dst globally' is a bit of a fucked up concept :)
11:22  * quaid does his MC Hammer imitation
11:22 < bpepple> quaid: yeah, seems reasonable.
11:22 < dwmw2_yoyo> you want them to move when Europe does, when the US does? when Argentina does?
11:22 < jjmcd> Pick a county in Indiana
11:22 < ke4qqq> dwmw2_yoyo: when Fedora does ...lol
11:22 < bpepple> dwmw2_yoyo: probably europe.  that's what we tried to do with FESCo.
11:22 < quaid> dwmw2_yoyo: I haven't researched so I'm doing what's called 'ideation' where we make up shit to see what is a good idea
11:22 -!- notting [n=notting at redhat/notting] has left #fedora-meeting ["Ex-Chat"]
11:22 < quaid> so i don't know how far off all those countries are
11:23 < quaid> hence, a decree and such
11:23  * quaid moves on to the Docs agenda now
11:23 < quaid> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Agenda_for_Next_Meeting
11:23  * ke4qqq thinks it is even more confusing - UTC is relatively simple and desont' change
11:23 < quaid> yet the reasons
11:23 < quaid> people pick meeting times
11:23 < jjmcd> ke4qqq: exactly
11:23 < quaid> are based on local time events
11:23 < dwmw2_yoyo> ke4qqq: well, there's a second at the end of this month...
11:23 < quaid> that move with DST
11:24 < quaid> ke4qqq: so less confusing, but fewer convience for all
11:24 < stickster> Right, humans move in local time.
11:24 < jjmcd> quaid: THere's good and bad to that.  If you move not only is it more confusing, but if you have a conflict you always have a conflict.  Keep UTC and you have a conflict half the time
11:24 < dwmw2_yoyo> whereas moving stuff around is much more confusing, and slightly more convenient for some while being _doubly_ inconvenient for others.
11:24 -!- j-rod [n=j-rod at static-72-93-233-3.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #fedora-meeting ["I give up!"]
11:25 < quaid> shall we take the discussion to fedora-devel-list about this topci?
11:25  * stickster getting ready to do the FAB thing
11:25 < dwmw2_yoyo> yeah. Meanwhile, can we rewind this channel an hour or so, so that I can attend the FESCo meeting?
11:25 < ke4qqq> regardless of what the decision is it needs to be something project wide
11:25 < quaid> stickster: ah, that's the place, thanks
11:26 < stickster> look for this thread on fedora-advisory-board, yup.
11:26 < quaid> ok, shall we move on?
11:26 < stickster> +1
11:26 < laubersm> +1
11:26  * quaid saw 5 min vaporize off topic while we are short of time today so ...
11:26 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs mtg :: Lessons learned from Fedora 10 cycle
11:27 < quaid> I'm looking for knurd's blog post ... so he doesn't have to say the same stuff here :)
11:27 < quaid> http://thorstenl.blogspot.com/2008/12/read-same-paragraphs-every-half-year.html
11:28 < quaid> so there are some points there and some I contend
11:28 -!- fozzmoo [n=fozz at 209.41.95.5] has joined #fedora-meeting
11:29 < knurd> quaid, I just watched myself on the second read and wrote things down ;-)
11:29 < fozzmoo> Here I am. The not-quite-ever-contributing contributor. Hoping to make more of a difference this time around.
11:29 < stickster> I think the "condensed version" has some merit
11:29 < knurd> turned out to be a rant; sorry, that wasn#t the initial plan
11:29 < quaid> understood
11:29 < stickster> But like all other ideas, they need hands to make them happen
11:29  * ke4qqq likes the single page idea as well. 
11:29 < quaid> oh, to be honest, I ignored the Big Idea part
11:30 < stickster> That should be easy to do
11:30 < quaid> in that, without hands, it's an idea
11:30 < quaid> while others are doable
11:30 < jjmcd> There is an issue with the level.  Bits are boring to the experienced user, others are impenetrable to all but the expert
11:30 < quaid> yeah, full page, downloadable tarballs of html, etc.
11:30 < quaid> jjmcd: one attempt this time was to order that somewhat
11:30 < quaid> so there was general interest up front
11:30 < quaid> and it worked back to depth and detail and technical level
11:30 < stickster> We should turn these ideas into a SOP such as the one used by Infra for release
11:31 < stickster> And stick to that script for the release
11:31 < quaid> which ideas?
11:31 -!- tkjacobsen [n=tkjacobs at pppoe2-ves.broadcom.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
11:31 < stickster> single-page HTML, any condensed version people show up to do, etc.
11:31 < stickster> That way they don't get lost in the shuffle
11:31 < stickster> We can debate them first, winners can go to the SOP.
11:32 < quaid> right
11:33  * quaid edits http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_release_standard_operating_procedures
11:33 < quaid> yeah, that is a lesson learned bit for me
11:33 < quaid> too much process stuck in the heads of too few.
11:33 < quaid> not by intention, of course :)
11:33 < stickster> quaid: We can collaborate on that page after this meeting if you've time
11:33  * quaid thinks . o O {This ain't the kind of job security I need}
11:34 < quaid> sure
11:35  * stickster gets the feeling quaid is writing :-)
11:35 < quaid> yeah, but also ... leaving room
11:35 < jjmcd> I could have taken some load off Karsten and Paul near the end if I understood the process better and I'm sure others could too
11:36 < stickster> Right, we are artificially limiting our scalability
11:36 < quaid> exactly
11:36 < stickster> It's a priority for me and Karsten to knock that barrier down.
11:36 < quaid> training during quiet times
11:36 < quaid> word!
11:36 < quaid> or, you know, die scaling it
11:37 -!- J5 [n=quintice at c-76-24-17-105.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
11:37 < ke4qqq> are we going to be imparting any of that at fudcon??
11:37 -!- llaumgui_ [n=llaumgui at cro34-2-82-226-153-125.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
11:37 < ke4qqq> or is that too short a timeframe
11:37 < quaid> yes, no
11:38 < quaid> Update helping-hand docs  quaid, stickster  03 Dec  17 Dec  Review, organize, rewrite, simplify, and categorize Docs team helper docs 
11:38  * quaid pulling from https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_admin_tasks_for_experienced_contributors#Task_table
11:40 < stickster> Hm, we'll need to update these dates
11:41 -!- hno [n=hno at pdpc/supporter/active/hno] has left #fedora-meeting []
11:41 -!- knurd is now known as knurd_afk
11:41 < stickster> *chirp chirp
11:42 < stickster> I can try to cut some time on a weeknight or three next week to help with this
11:42 < stickster> I'm finally coming down off the peak media activity for F10
11:43  * jjmcd thinks stickster likes being a celebrity
11:44 < stickster> It pays better than being a rock star so far
11:44 < jjmcd> ;-)
11:44 < stickster> But I was never that big a rock star :-D
11:45 < stickster> Did quaid leave us?
11:45 -!- jtibu [n=jtibu at uniaraxa.edu.br] has joined #fedora-meeting
11:45 < quaid> srry
11:45 < quaid> wrong channel?
11:46 < stickster> We can use classroom sessions for Docs work, if appropriate
11:46 < stickster> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/IRC/Classroom
11:47 < quaid> stickster started it by asking about stuff in the other channel
11:47 -!- rdieter is now known as rdieter_away
11:47 < quaid> :)
11:47 < stickster> I thought I was being a good boy by not going OT here! :-D
11:47 < quaid> no, I thought that was on topic
11:47 < stickster> Anyhoo...
11:48 < quaid> it's a task in the process of us updating those docs, or smtgh
11:48 < stickster> OK, just for sake of meeting thoroughness -- I talked about doing some virtual hackfesting over Christmas.
11:48 < quaid> ok, what else did we learn this release
11:48 < stickster> more on my topic later in #fedora-docs.
11:48 < quaid> yeah, I'll add a task
11:49 < stickster> We still need a more rigorous schedule for release notes updates via web and RPM
11:49 < quaid> updates after the release, right?
11:49 < stickster> right
11:49 < stickster> We don't need to make them for six months, but we should have one or two updates in the first 30-60 days.
11:50 < stickster> Since anaconda no longer barfs when you install updates interleaved with the original release, people will see these on their systems more immediately./
11:50 < quaid> ok
11:51 < quaid> let's see ... anything else come to mind today?
11:51 < quaid> I think I'll have more details pour out of me writing an SOP for each document
11:52 < quaid> s/pour/bleed/
11:52 < jjmcd> I've mentioned the difficulty for new beat writers to see what they need to do, but I don't think that is news
11:52  * stickster wants to seriously think about sweeping all our old DocsProject stuff into Archive somewhere, and making that the impetus to build leaner, meaner, better pages for new contributors.
11:53 < quaid> stickster: I think the page renaming accomplishes that somewhat
11:53 -!- J5 [n=quintice at c-76-24-17-105.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #fedora-meeting
11:53  * jjmcd is still from Missouri on page renaming
11:53 < quaid> just that we could use that as a place to send 80% to Archive
11:53 < quaid> s/place/method/
11:54 < stickster> quaid: I'm missing what you're saying.
11:54 < stickster> Probably the decongestants.
11:54 < quaid> stickster: seems like more work to discard and start over, but I could be wrong
11:54 < quaid> stickster: but I see lots of cruft in doing the page renaming
11:54 < quaid> that I've been pointing to Archive:
11:54 < stickster> A LOT of cruft.
11:55 < quaid> yes, under Docs/ as well (sep. topic)
11:55 < stickster> Many of those pages predate our new wiki, the new FAS, etc....
11:55 < quaid> yeah, so, I guess, step one in discarding is to finish the page renaming document
11:55 < ke4qqq> it almost would be a good idea to have a page owner
11:55 < quaid> and be the guinea pig first run of the process from the wiki team
11:55 < ke4qqq> who is responsible for keeping a page up to date
11:56 < quaid> ooh [Category:Quaid stewards this page]]
11:56 < quaid> easy way to steward and not lose track
11:56 < quaid> ke4qqq: sure then
11:56 < quaid> we can add that in the renaming; there is a column for new categories
11:57 < ke4qqq> and maybe a Category:unowned please adopt me soon
11:57 < quaid> jjmcd: which way is renaming losing you?
11:57 -!- danielsmw_ [n=danielsm at cu-nat-2.clemson.edu] has joined #fedora-meeting
11:57  * Sparks likes the "unowned" cat
11:57 < jjmcd> I'm not convinved that trying to make search work is worth loosing navigtation that does work
11:58 < jjmcd> But I'm waiting to see
11:58 < stickster> We have a {{needs love}} already
11:58 < stickster> Which is not the same as owned, but works fine for unowned IMHO
11:58 < quaid> jjmcd: the wikibot should fix links
11:58 -!- danielsmw_ [n=danielsm at cu-nat-2.clemson.edu] has quit [Client Quit]
11:58 < quaid> jjmcd: and setup page forwards
11:58 < stickster> Yes, it does.
11:59 < jjmcd> You can sort of find stuff in a hierarchy, tho.  With search you gotta know what to look for
12:00 < quaid> jjmcd: only if you know the hierarchy
12:00 < quaid> and only really if the hierarchy is totally standard
12:00 -!- danielsmw_ [n=danielsm at cu-nat-2.clemson.edu] has joined #fedora-meeting
12:00 < jjmcd> Certainly it is far from perfect
12:00 < quaid> so e.g. ProjectName/Join worked pretty well, but falls apart after that
12:01 < quaid> also, categorization is *key*
12:01 -!- danielsmw_ [n=danielsm at cu-nat-2.clemson.edu] has quit [Client Quit]
12:01 < quaid> each page must be in a category, and we find stuff by cat
12:01 < jjmcd> If we're liberal with categories that could help
12:01 < jjmcd> Only one bug reported against relnotes?  I better get posting.
12:02 < quaid> jjmcd: another reason, look what happens in a category when the pages are named hierarchically
12:02 < quaid> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Documentation
12:02 < stickster> Yup, hierarchy is ugly, because it encourages cliques
12:02 < stickster> "You must know our standard!"
12:02 < quaid> you have to visually drop /Docs/DocumentName for each page
12:02 < quaid> jjmcd: yeah, post bugs; we want to do an update soon
12:03 < quaid> ok, we are over the line
12:03 < quaid> timewise
12:03 < stickster> heh, almost jinx
12:03  * fugolini want to adivice FAmSCo members that FAmSCo meeting is moved in #fedora-ambassadors
12:03 < jjmcd> Yeah, my Palm keeps telling to get moving
12:03 < quaid> fugolini: we were going to move over ...
12:04 < fugolini> ah, ok, absoultely no problems, take your time
12:04 < fugolini> it's not sure we will have a meeting, since i will not do the roll call
12:04 < fugolini> call roll, I don't know which is the right form
12:04 < quaid> well, I think we hit the long tail of the discussion
12:04 < quaid> you call the roll to get the roll call
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12:05 < quaid> </meeting>
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