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FDSCo Meeting 2009-03-26 IRC log



Mar 25 20:00:00 <Sparks>	Roll Call!
Mar 25 20:00:00 *	Sparks has changed the topic to: Welcome to the Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings
Mar 25 20:00:08 *	Sparks is here
Mar 25 20:00:38 *	jjmcd yo
Mar 25 20:00:58 *	n9986_ (n=nandeep 59 176 80 223) has joined #fedora-meeting
Mar 25 20:02:10 <Sparks>	Where is everyone?
Mar 25 20:02:42 *	glezos is here
Mar 25 20:03:14 <glezos>	afk, but pingable
Mar 25 20:03:17 *	laubersm is here
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Mar 25 20:07:20 2009

Mar 25 20:07:20 *	Now talking on #fedora-meeting
Mar 25 20:07:20 *	Topic for #fedora-meeting is: Welcome to the Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings
Mar 25 20:07:20 *	Topic for #fedora-meeting set by Sparks at Wed Mar 25 19:59:50 2009
Mar 25 20:07:22 <ke4qqq>	which one?? I only see beta release notes
Mar 25 20:07:27 <ke4qqq>	and f10 admin something
Mar 25 20:07:34 <Sparks>	Sorry about that, my computer went stupid.
Mar 25 20:08:37 <Sparks>	Let's start over again...  :)
Mar 25 20:08:42 <Sparks>	Roll call!
Mar 25 20:08:45 *	Sparks is here (I think)
Mar 25 20:08:46 *	ke4qqq is here
Mar 25 20:09:05 *	jjmcd qrv
Mar 25 20:09:10 *	laubersm is here
Mar 25 20:09:25 *	stickster_afk is now known as stickster
Mar 25 20:09:47 *	Sparks has changed the topic to: Docs Project - Beta Announcement
Mar 25 20:10:12 *	ianweller rolls in
Mar 25 20:10:23 <Sparks>	Okay, there was a fairly good discussion on f-docs-l about how to author the Beta Announcement...
Mar 25 20:10:27 <Sparks>	and what should be in it...
Mar 25 20:10:36 <Sparks>	and how much detail to put into it...
Mar 25 20:10:38 *	mdomsch (n=mdomsch cpe-70-124-62-55 austin res rr com) has joined #fedora-meeting
Mar 25 20:10:46 <Sparks>	and who are target audience is.
Mar 25 20:10:57 *	ryanlerch (n=rlerch nat/redhat/x-9e2fb1f14674b40d) has joined #fedora-meeting
Mar 25 20:11:11 <Sparks>	Let's see if we can get those questions answered.
Mar 25 20:11:17 *	stickster shows up late -- sorry
Mar 25 20:11:39 <Sparks>	Does anyone have any concerns about how the Beta Announcement looks right now in Gobby (or on the wiki)?
Mar 25 20:12:24 <Sparks>	https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F11_Beta_Announcement
Mar 25 20:12:38 <jjmcd>	last week we talked about three groups of no more than five bullets  I see we have added some, I don't have a problem with that but are we all agreeing that more bullets is ok?
Mar 25 20:12:47 <laubersm>	I like it - though with the way the other discussions are going I wonder about making the link to the Beta Release Notes more prominent
Mar 25 20:12:49 *	ianweller takes a peek
Mar 25 20:13:07 <stickster>	The audience for the announcement falls into a couple groups
Mar 25 20:13:17 <stickster>	1. community members and users, i.e. most likely testers
Mar 25 20:13:31 <stickster>	2. journalists and web aggies
Mar 25 20:13:56 *	Sparks notes stickster has made a change in Gobby...
Mar 25 20:14:26 *	stickster changed the kimono thing, which always sounded silly-naughty as opposed to the more neutral car talk version
Mar 25 20:14:49 <jjmcd>	Kinda borrowed that from Icom's IC7800 announcement
Mar 25 20:14:54 <Sparks>	jjmcd: I don't like being held to an arbitrary standard (three groups of five bullets).
Mar 25 20:15:07 <Sparks>	jjmcd: If we have more to say or less to say then we should just say what we need to say.
Mar 25 20:15:20 <ke4qqq>	the gcc line doesn't make sense to me.
Mar 25 20:15:30 <jjmcd>	Yeah, well, that wasn't my recommendation, but I didn't want others to think it was too gangly
Mar 25 20:15:58 <Sparks>	ke4qqq: good catch
Mar 25 20:16:20 <ke4qqq>	there is at least a period missing
Mar 25 20:16:40 <jjmcd>	Well, that needs more prominence.  C++ code is affected by the change
Mar 25 20:16:58 <jjmcd>	Some existing code will break
Mar 25 20:17:10 <stickster>	I just sent a bunch of stuff to the wrong channel... I'm such a dweeb.
Mar 25 20:17:22 *	stickster transcribes
Mar 25 20:17:23 <stickster>	One other thing that I am still on the fence about is the call-out of the Linux Format cover blurb.
Mar 25 20:17:30 <stickster>	The whole blurb, for those who haven't seen it, was "Fedora 10 kicks Ubuntu's ass."
Mar 25 20:17:35 <stickster>	Whether or not you tend to agree, I think calling that particular blurb out is skirting a troubled line.
Mar 25 20:17:40 <stickster>	We don't need to make someone else look worse for us to look good, I think.
Mar 25 20:17:42 <jjmcd>	We took out Ubuntu
Mar 25 20:17:42 <ke4qqq>	so utilizes doesn't carry the notion that it's been upgraded.
Mar 25 20:17:50 <jjmcd>	replaced it with ...
Mar 25 20:18:01 <ke4qqq>	stickster: +1 we don't care about Ubuntu
Mar 25 20:18:12 <stickster>	jjmcd: I realize that, but it's not going to be hard for people to trace the quote and then take that as us having a chip on our shoulder.
Mar 25 20:18:15 <ke4qqq>	and certainly don't want to call attentiont to them in our own release announcement.
Mar 25 20:18:32 <jjmcd>	Ahhh, yeah, prolly right.
Mar 25 20:18:41 <stickster>	From a marketing perspective, that's a total party foul.
Mar 25 20:19:10 <jjmcd>	would anyone bother?
Mar 25 20:19:22 <quaid>	yep
Mar 25 20:19:24 *	stickster doesn't want to test those waters.
Mar 25 20:19:28 <ianweller>	should we be using https for wiki urls?
Mar 25 20:19:34 <jjmcd>	Yeah, I see that
Mar 25 20:19:37 <quaid>	ianweller: I thought not?
Mar 25 20:19:43 <jjmcd>	ianweller I thought I caught those
Mar 25 20:19:48 <quaid>	or you mean to get the 'latest' without caching
Mar 25 20:20:05 <ianweller>	well it bothers people who are logged in but i guess if we're caching, then don't
Mar 25 20:20:07 <stickster>	Do people without a login get an annoying credentials input box if they use https://?
Mar 25 20:20:22 <ke4qqq>	no
Mar 25 20:20:26 <jjmcd>	No, I don't thnk so
Mar 25 20:20:30 <ke4qqq>	they just have to do the entire session thing
Mar 25 20:20:33 <ke4qqq>	with ssl
Mar 25 20:20:39 <Sparks>	and that's bad?
Mar 25 20:20:39 <ke4qqq>	which is more expensive for our infrastructure
Mar 25 20:20:40 <stickster>	Oh, that's no fun then.
Mar 25 20:20:44 <ke4qqq>	computationally
Mar 25 20:20:48 <quaid>	and we don't get the ncaching benefit
Mar 25 20:20:56 <ke4qqq>	right
Mar 25 20:21:03 <stickster>	Yeah, use http:// unless it's going to an audience you know is entirely (or almost entirely) credentialed
Mar 25 20:21:09 <ke4qqq>	that too
Mar 25 20:21:11 <Sparks>	+1
Mar 25 20:22:16 <stickster>	One other issue that was raised by someone in Marketing -- apparently "Is a better OS than Fedora 10 even possible?" comes off as a very offensive statement in at least one other language
Mar 25 20:22:20 <ke4qqq>	I just pulled the kicks ass sentence out. flame me if you wish
Mar 25 20:22:51 <quaid>	stickster: huh, really?
Mar 25 20:22:59 <Sparks>	stickster: Really?  I wonder what it translates to.
Mar 25 20:23:11 <ke4qqq>	stickster: I gotta admit if we aren't transliterating what is the evil inference?
Mar 25 20:23:20 <ke4qqq>	s/admit/ask
Mar 25 20:23:25 <stickster>	I think it's an idiomatic or cultural thing, as opposed to "when you translate this, it says 'I would like to date your teenage daughter.'"
Mar 25 20:23:51 <stickster>	What if we restated that in some way?
Mar 25 20:24:19 <ke4qqq>	How about - While a better OS is hard to imagine - Fp.o has made the beta of Fedora 11 for you to realize how good it is now
Mar 25 20:24:19 <Sparks>	Can you get any better than Fedora 10?
Mar 25 20:24:21 <stickster>	Like, "Users, sysadmins, and press agree -- Fedora 10 outdid itself in terms of <blah, blah, blah>"
Mar 25 20:24:23 <ke4qqq>	or something along those lines
Mar 25 20:24:26 <stickster>	Sparks: We'd better hope so
Mar 25 20:24:32 <stickster>	Oh, that was a suggestion, oops :-D
Mar 25 20:24:38 <Sparks>	stickster: Gees
Mar 25 20:25:31 *	radsy (n=scott 124-171-172-73 dyn iinet net au) has joined #fedora-meeting
Mar 25 20:25:40 <Sparks>	Ummm... Do we even have "JUICY QUOTE 1"?
Mar 25 20:25:57 <ke4qqq>	Sparks: we at least have Fedora 10 kicks ubuntus ass
Mar 25 20:25:59 <quaid>	+1 to reference the agreed sources that Fedora 10 rox'd
Mar 25 20:26:03 <stickster>	Sparks: Shouldn't be hard to find
Mar 25 20:26:08 <stickster>	We got great press coverage.
Mar 25 20:26:11 <stickster>	ke4qqq: :-D
Mar 25 20:26:18 <Sparks>	:)
Mar 25 20:26:18 <laubersm>	arg - give him a minute - he'll find one. :)
Mar 25 20:26:32 <Sparks>	laubersm: nice type on top of the page... :)
Mar 25 20:27:04 <laubersm>	did I get it all back out correctly?
Mar 25 20:27:15 *	mdomsch has quit ("Leaving")
Mar 25 20:27:22 *	laubersm has too many things and windows going on
Mar 25 20:27:23 *	Pikachu_2014 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
Mar 25 20:27:40 <stickster>	I'm looking up some press now, sorry, FF is slow
Mar 25 20:27:46 <Sparks>	laubersm: yeah...  
Mar 25 20:27:51 <stickster>	by which I mean "Not instantaneously mind melding."
Mar 25 20:28:11 <ke4qqq>	cause of course you are using minefield in rawhide :)
Mar 25 20:28:21 <Sparks>	Is the bugzilla link supposed to be https://?
Mar 25 20:28:28 <ianweller>	Sparks: yes
Mar 25 20:28:36 <Sparks>	ianweller: TU
Mar 25 20:28:37 <ianweller>	it doesn't accept http:// connections and redirects to https anyway
Mar 25 20:28:45 <ke4qqq>	yeah http redirects to https
Mar 25 20:29:02 <Sparks>	laubersm: Don't like contractions?
Mar 25 20:29:10 <quaid>	nope
Mar 25 20:29:14 <laubersm>	nope
Mar 25 20:29:23 <Sparks>	sound clunky to my southern ear
Mar 25 20:29:46 <ke4qqq>	mine too
Mar 25 20:29:46 <laubersm>	they also do not always translate well - even if most translators know how to deal with them
Mar 25 20:30:03 <ke4qqq>	true
Mar 25 20:30:04 <quaid>	http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_Style_Guide_-_General_Guidelines#Contractions
Mar 25 20:30:10 <laubersm>	that too
Mar 25 20:30:40 <Sparks>	quaid: Oh we can change that... it's in the wiki...
Mar 25 20:30:55 <ke4qqq>	P in project is capitalized right?
Mar 25 20:31:10 <quaid>	yes
Mar 25 20:31:16 <quaid>	the formal project name
Mar 25 20:31:19 <ke4qqq>	just making sure I wasn't crazy
Mar 25 20:31:46 <quaid>	for those curious about various comments here
Mar 25 20:31:53 <quaid>	we are writing together via gobby
Mar 25 20:32:01 <Sparks>	ke4qqq: That top part is commented out.  Should we use some of that or just open up the document with "The wait is over."
Mar 25 20:32:02 <Sparks>	?\
Mar 25 20:32:06 <ke4qqq>	why is Gnome 2.26 and kde 4.2 not on their own line
Mar 25 20:32:18 <quaid>	ke4qqq: contraction :)
Mar 25 20:32:20 <Sparks>	ke4qqq: Because we were trying to conform
Mar 25 20:32:37 <laubersm>	ke4qqq, we condensed to a single bullet of updated desktops...
Mar 25 20:32:49 <ke4qqq>	combining them makes it seem like an insignificant update
Mar 25 20:32:52 <quaid>	G then K is alpha
Mar 25 20:32:53 <Sparks>	Personally, I think they are big ticket items and could be separated if we have enough "stuff" to put behind them
Mar 25 20:33:24 <quaid>	isn't 4.2 in F10
Mar 25 20:33:25 <quaid>	?
Mar 25 20:33:44 <ke4qqq>	yes, but is debuting in F11
Mar 25 20:33:49 <ke4qqq>	iirc
Mar 25 20:34:03 <jjmcd>	I think it was in the talking points
Mar 25 20:34:07 <quaid>	honey, she can't re-debut
Mar 25 20:34:13 <quaid>	:)
Mar 25 20:34:42 <ke4qqq>	sure - just like xfs support :)
Mar 25 20:34:47 <laubersm>	Sparks, How much "stuff" do you want in the *announce* page?
Mar 25 20:34:58 <laubersm>	that is the question that keeps comin round
Mar 25 20:35:06 <Sparks>	Just enough to reel them in.
Mar 25 20:35:11 <jjmcd>	Exactly - I would argue the gnome and kde updates ARE minor
Mar 25 20:35:16 <Sparks>	You don't want to say you have a car for sale
Mar 25 20:35:25 <Sparks>	You want to say you have a fast, red car for sale
Mar 25 20:35:39 <jjmcd>	Hey - you ain't selling my car!
Mar 25 20:35:48 <Sparks>	jjmcd: too late
Mar 25 20:36:03 <ke4qqq>	so since press is one of our target demographics - I think a column listing 'importnant' stuff is important, if they have to read the details it may not get covered.
Mar 25 20:36:05 <quaid>	can't we link them to longer info?
Mar 25 20:36:16 <jjmcd>	We do
Mar 25 20:36:29 <jjmcd>	We link to the beta rn's and also to the beats
Mar 25 20:36:31 <quaid>	then lots of shortness is better than fewer longer bits
Mar 25 20:36:33 <laubersm>	anyone who is looking for it will find it with a single bullet saying that all the desktops have been updated to the latest version and
Mar 25 20:36:35 <Sparks>	Yeah to the release notes
Mar 25 20:36:49 <laubersm>	those that don't know they need it won't care that it is not separate bullets
Mar 25 20:36:55 <Sparks>	Then you have a grocery list
Mar 25 20:37:01 <laubersm>	The RN then has all the details in their own sections
Mar 25 20:37:06 <quaid>	Sparks: with adjectives
Mar 25 20:37:13 <jjmcd>	We also have a link to the feature list
Mar 25 20:37:22 <quaid>	Fantastic new sparkling beans in a can!
Mar 25 20:37:29 <quaid>	v .
Mar 25 20:37:32 <quaid>	beans
Mar 25 20:37:42 <ke4qqq>	latest vintage sparkling beans in a can :)
Mar 25 20:37:48 <Sparks>	yikes
Mar 25 20:37:52 <Sparks>	no more beans!  :)
Mar 25 20:37:59 <jjmcd>	And you don't learn that you need a fancy new $1000 can opener until you get to the beats
Mar 25 20:38:10 <laubersm>	and btw - the feature list needs some love too - there was a request to f-d-l a while back to wordsmith it and I have done some but it needs much more...
Mar 25 20:38:20 <Sparks>	The desktop statement just sounds bland to me
Mar 25 20:38:38 <jjmcd>	It kind of is ... there are no really cool user features
Mar 25 20:38:55 <Sparks>	Didn't they do anything to spice up the desktop?
Mar 25 20:39:09 <ke4qqq>	they moved to kde 4.2 and gnome 2.26
Mar 25 20:39:18 *	Pikachu_2014 (n=Pikachu_ 81-66-20-24 rev numericable fr) has joined #fedora-meeting
Mar 25 20:39:21 <Sparks>	so they just changed the number?
Mar 25 20:39:29 <laubersm>	and fixed the bugs
Mar 25 20:39:44 <laubersm>	they changed how sound works in gnome
Mar 25 20:39:57 <laubersm>	and broke it elsewhere
Mar 25 20:39:58 <jjmcd>	I think there were some enablers there, too, but nothing earth shattering
Mar 25 20:39:58 *	zwu|gone is now known as zwu
Mar 25 20:40:11 <ke4qqq>	20 second startup?
Mar 25 20:40:12 *	laubersm is kidding
Mar 25 20:40:33 <ke4qqq>	Auto Bug Reporting Tool?
Mar 25 20:40:36 <Sparks>	Gnome 2.26 has been updated to include new sound controls, a faster startup, and an ATM that will funnel money directly into your pocket
Mar 25 20:41:10 <ke4qqq>	tbird3
Mar 25 20:41:39 <ke4qqq>	delta rpms? preso
Mar 25 20:41:42 <ke4qqq>	presto
Mar 25 20:41:44 *	joat (n=joat ip70-174-79-200 hr hr cox net) has joined #Fedora-Meeting
Mar 25 20:41:55 <ke4qqq>	ohhhh the  big one
Mar 25 20:41:57 <laubersm>	ke4qqq, are you suggesting we replace some of the existing bullets with these other choices?
Mar 25 20:41:58 <ke4qqq>	OPENCHANGE
Mar 25 20:42:10 <ke4qqq>	I am answering Sparks question
Mar 25 20:42:18 *	laubersm looks back....
Mar 25 20:42:27 <Sparks>	ke4qqq: What was my question?!?
Mar 25 20:42:34 <Sparks>	Oh
Mar 25 20:42:36 <Sparks>	Bah
Mar 25 20:42:40 <laubersm>	ahh
Mar 25 20:42:41 <ke4qqq>	20:38 < Sparks> Didn't they do anything to spice up the desktop?
Mar 25 20:42:50 <ke4qqq>	but we HAVE to cover openchange
Mar 25 20:42:53 <ke4qqq>	that's HUGE
Mar 25 20:43:05 <ke4qqq>	first distro to have it
Mar 25 20:43:05 <laubersm>	ke4qqq, but those are not parts of the desktop envirment themselves... they are separate apps
Mar 25 20:43:05 <stickster>	We don't need to cover every single change in the Beta announcement
Mar 25 20:43:07 <Sparks>	Openchange?
Mar 25 20:43:20 <ke4qqq>	native mapi library for linux
Mar 25 20:43:32 <ke4qqq>	corporate drones like me rejoice
Mar 25 20:43:35 <laubersm>	wow!!!
Mar 25 20:43:36 <Sparks>	:)
Mar 25 20:43:38 <laubersm>	what's that mean?
Mar 25 20:43:53 <ke4qqq>	native exchange access for evolution and kdepim
Mar 25 20:44:05 <laubersm>	ick
Mar 25 20:44:10 <Sparks>	Are we really going to say "Microsoft" in our announcement?
Mar 25 20:44:13 <jjmcd>	Not nearly as HUGE as qtel
Mar 25 20:44:17 <Sparks>	That's just bad juju right there
Mar 25 20:44:21 <laubersm>	but I can see why corp drones rejoice
Mar 25 20:44:46 *	Nirmal has quit ("Leaving")
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Mar 25 20:44:57 <ke4qqq>	perhaps my perspective is skewed on that point
Mar 25 20:45:05 <ke4qqq>	I'll defer to the wisdom of others
Mar 25 20:45:11 <quaid>	Sparks: it's a trademark
Mar 25 20:45:21 <ke4qqq>	though I think it's huge.
Mar 25 20:45:25 <ke4qqq>	jjmcd: what's qtel?
Mar 25 20:45:36 <quaid>	it's just habit to use trademarks of other people correctly, it's respectful
Mar 25 20:45:36 <jjmcd>	echolink client - huge to a different audience
Mar 25 20:45:46 <laubersm>	we are already saying Microsoft - with the cross compiler.
Mar 25 20:45:47 <stickster>	We can get away with just the first one, though, which is also standard
Mar 25 20:45:55 <quaid>	Sparks: also, I don't like to concede the generic word 'windows' to MSFT
Mar 25 20:46:03 <Sparks>	Yeah... but it points out that there are other OSs to deal with.  We shouldn't be point out anyone else's OS... IMO
Mar 25 20:46:13 <stickster>	quaid: The problem is, now it reads like it's a Microsoft product we're including.
Mar 25 20:46:13 <quaid>	stickster: not really iirc aiui
Mar 25 20:46:24 <quaid>	ok then reword it
Mar 25 20:46:32 <Sparks>	stickster: yeah
Mar 25 20:46:35 <quaid>	how about
Mar 25 20:46:45 <stickster>	dammit, that's not right either
Mar 25 20:46:58 <stickster>	There you go
Mar 25 20:47:02 <quaid>	not MS
Mar 25 20:47:04 <Sparks>	Cross compiler for that "OtherOS"
Mar 25 20:47:16 <quaid>	heh
Mar 25 20:47:17 <Sparks>	")
Mar 25 20:47:19 <Sparks>	:)
Mar 25 20:47:42 <jjmcd>	"Windows from that evil empire in Washington"?
Mar 25 20:47:55 *	G_work_ is now known as G_work
Mar 25 20:48:23 *	laubersm seems to remember that same issue/discussion when that item reached feature review as well....
Mar 25 20:48:37 *	ke4qqq notes we are 47 minutes into the meeting. 
Mar 25 20:48:40 *	EvilBob (n=EvilBob fedora/bobjensen) has joined #Fedora-Meeting
Mar 25 20:49:01 <quaid>	who summoned EvilBob ?!?!
Mar 25 20:49:13 <jjmcd>	But we have made huge improvements in the announcement
Mar 25 20:49:14 <Sparks>	ke4qqq: We are going over tonight
Mar 25 20:49:18 <quaid>	ok, working meeting is tough
Mar 25 20:49:28 <quaid>	Sparks: do you want to cover anything else within the hour
Mar 25 20:49:30 <ke4qqq>	I am not objecting - just keeping us mindful
Mar 25 20:49:35 <stickster>	Is there not Publican stuff on the agenda?
Mar 25 20:49:36 <ke4qqq>	of the time
Mar 25 20:49:37 <quaid>	just in case ppl have to go?
Mar 25 20:49:47 <Sparks>	Yeah, does anyone need to bail at the top of the hour?
Mar 25 20:49:50 <quaid>	we could take apause on the announcement
Mar 25 20:50:00 <stickster>	Sparks: Unfortch, I do
Mar 25 20:50:00 <quaid>	I just read it top to bottom and did a few edits, it's quite there
Mar 25 20:50:03 <Sparks>	bah
Mar 25 20:50:06 <Sparks>	Okay... 
Mar 25 20:50:14 *	Sparks has changed the topic to: Docs Project - Publican Discussion
Mar 25 20:50:25 <Sparks>	We'll jump back on the announcement in a few...
Mar 25 20:50:36 <Sparks>	So there is a problem.
Mar 25 20:50:51 <jjmcd>	multiples, actually
Mar 25 20:50:55 <Sparks>	We've been trying to shoehorn Publican into Fedora for the past three releases...
Mar 25 20:51:16 <Sparks>	and I know that I've gone rounds with Publican trying to get it to meet my needs...
Mar 25 20:51:18 <stickster>	Er, two, right?
Mar 25 20:51:21 <Sparks>	with some success.
Mar 25 20:51:24 <stickster>	Anyway, it's been a while coming.
Mar 25 20:51:38 <Sparks>	I'm going to count three problems...
Mar 25 20:51:58 <Sparks>	1) The naming schema does not match Fedora naming schema.
Mar 25 20:52:21 <Sparks>	2) The Translators don't get statistics from Publican packages.
Mar 25 20:52:37 <Sparks>	3) Support is lacking for changes that need to be made for Fedora.
Mar 25 20:52:47 <ke4qqq>	?
Mar 25 20:52:49 <quaid>	on #2, stats are available via CLI tools only, which breaks team workflow
Mar 25 20:52:56 <Sparks>	quaid: Thanks
Mar 25 20:53:02 <quaid>	on #1, this is packaging naming in specific
Mar 25 20:53:08 <Sparks>	right
Mar 25 20:53:09 <jjmcd>	It also looks as if the structure of the various langs produced by Publican is different and something else we may need to deal with
Mar 25 20:53:16 <quaid>	ke4qqq: go ahead
Mar 25 20:53:24 <quaid>	jjmcd: good point
Mar 25 20:53:31 <quaid>	previous tools put all langs in one package
Mar 25 20:53:35 <stickster>	Another note on #2, Spot and I have been working on some folks internally to break loose some hours to pitch in code that lets Tx handle Publican.
Mar 25 20:53:37 <quaid>	publican produces 1 package per lang
Mar 25 20:53:49 <quaid>	meaning we have x*y new packages
Mar 25 20:54:05 <Sparks>	and each has to be evaluated
Mar 25 20:54:14 <stickster>	1 SRPM per lang?
Mar 25 20:54:14 <ke4qqq>	can you explain #3 - should I be taking that as upstream doesn't want to help us, or that they are abandoning?
Mar 25 20:54:33 <ke4qqq>	stickster: what has your success level been?
Mar 25 20:54:36 <jjmcd>	But if we need to hack the rpm, we *MAY* be able to fix that anyway
Mar 25 20:54:43 <stickster>	ke4qqq: Hang on, let's resolve these questions first
Mar 25 20:54:46 <ke4qqq>	ok
Mar 25 20:54:47 <quaid>	ke4qqq: features requested have primarily been met with an answer that they are not pertinent to the Publican audience.
Mar 25 20:54:53 <stickster>	quaid: Is that 1 SRPM per lang?
Mar 25 20:54:56 <Sparks>	ke4qqq: I have moderate success with getting things fixed upstream but I've also been told that fixes for "silly" Fedora problems won't be fixed.
Mar 25 20:55:02 <Sparks>	which is a problem
Mar 25 20:55:04 <jjmcd>	stickster: yes
Mar 25 20:55:10 <quaid>	ke4qqq: and either cannot be done as it is written or there are no resources to fix but a patch is welcome.\
Mar 25 20:55:11 <stickster>	Oh. Ew.
Mar 25 20:55:36 <quaid>	yeah, forgot about that one
Mar 25 20:55:52 <Sparks>	yeah, that one has been brewing for a while
Mar 25 20:55:53 <ke4qqq>	wow - guess that's one way to get package count up
Mar 25 20:56:02 <quaid>	*snort*
Mar 25 20:56:10 <stickster>	That should be part of any spec file fix that we brew up, if we bother at all.
Mar 25 20:56:13 <Sparks>	Does anyone have any questions about #1?
Mar 25 20:56:38 <Sparks>	(I'm going to dig up an email in a sec...)
Mar 25 20:56:39 <jjmcd>	does our package HAVE to be called f-r-n
Mar 25 20:56:52 <quaid>	jjmcd: ask f13
Mar 25 20:57:12 <Sparks>	jjmcd: The problem stems from the product number being put into the name.
Mar 25 20:57:18 <stickster>	jjmcd: It needs to carry the word "fedora-" at the front, AIUI, since it's part of the branding that would be removed in a remix.
Mar 25 20:57:42 <f13>	... what name would you prefer?
Mar 25 20:58:11 <Sparks>	It is the difference between fedora-security-guide and fedora-security-guide-10
Mar 25 20:58:20 <jjmcd>	I was wondering why not allow Publican to put the release number in the package name
Mar 25 20:58:35 <f13>	eeew
Mar 25 20:58:39 <Sparks>	Well, right now you can't turn it off
Mar 25 20:58:42 <f13>	versions should never be in the name.
Mar 25 20:58:54 <Sparks>	and the Security Guide is not tied directly to ANY specific release of Fedora
Mar 25 20:59:15 <jjmcd>	Why not allow people to install the NEXT version of release notes to study before installing?
Mar 25 20:59:21 *	kolesovdv has quit (Remote closed the connection)
Mar 25 20:59:27 *	Tsagadai (n=ccurran nat/redhat/x-3dbd5f30fc89cdd7) has joined #fedora-meeting
Mar 25 20:59:31 <quaid>	jjmcd: right, that's the use case being argued for
Mar 25 20:59:33 <stickster>	jjmcd: That was kind of my question. It's actually a useful thing IMHO
Mar 25 20:59:43 <quaid>	but it's a packaging committee discussion, really
Mar 25 20:59:51 <quaid>	and someone has to care enough to take it there
Mar 25 20:59:55 <f13>	you can upgrade your release notes
Mar 25 21:00:11 <f13>	do you think that somebody would want to go back and read the old ones locally once that has been done?
Mar 25 21:00:19 <quaid>	f13: it's for sysadmins
Mar 25 21:00:25 <f13>	(and why would they install the package when the newer release notes are available on the web?)
Mar 25 21:00:25 <quaid>	to have multiple versions of one guide
Mar 25 21:00:25 <stickster>	f13: And for writers.
Mar 25 21:00:27 <quaid>	one per package
Mar 25 21:00:27 <laubersm>	f13: yes
Mar 25 21:00:39 <ke4qqq>	so do we have someone lobbying FPC for this?
Mar 25 21:00:51 <quaid>	ke4qqq: not from Docs
Mar 25 21:00:57 <quaid>	that I know of
Mar 25 21:01:02 <quaid>	nor do I see consensus that is the way to go :L)
Mar 25 21:01:04 <Sparks>	I don't have a problem having the number there but I want the option to turn it off.
Mar 25 21:01:17 <Sparks>	Because I don't want it in my document.
Mar 25 21:01:40 <jjmcd>	I'm not convinced it is the right answer, but I'm not convinced it isn't
Mar 25 21:01:46 *	kolesovdv (n=kolesovd 82 162 141 18) has joined #fedora-meeting
Mar 25 21:02:02 <quaid>	seems a legit use case to me
Mar 25 21:02:09 <quaid>	but it's freaking late to bring the case
Mar 25 21:02:15 <stickster>	Sparks: So the problem here is that Publican doesn't predict any documentation that's not tied to a specific software release
Mar 25 21:02:17 <Sparks>	I'd be happy to fight the battle with the FPC but Publican is broken for me
Mar 25 21:02:24 <jjmcd>	Yeah, whatever we do we need to work with the tools we got
Mar 25 21:02:50 <Sparks>	stickster: You cannot tell Publican to NOT use the product number.  So everything HAS to be tied to a specific release.
Mar 25 21:03:04 <quaid>	how much work would it be to add PDF to fedora-doc-utils and package the whole thing?
Mar 25 21:03:23 <quaid>	s/add/fix/
Mar 25 21:03:25 <Sparks>	quaid: Would you like me to paste the five options?
Mar 25 21:03:32 <jjmcd>	And my leaning is to continue down the Publican path, so we are at least a baby step closer come F12 time
Mar 25 21:03:54 <Sparks>	jjmcd: We wouldn't be
Mar 25 21:04:07 <Sparks>	Okay... earlier I posted an email to the f-docs-l...
Mar 25 21:04:23 <stickster>	I would like to try my hand at fixing this problem, but it's hours that I don't tend to have anymore :-(
Mar 25 21:04:24 <Sparks>	that had five options for moving forward because I don't tread water that well...
Mar 25 21:04:31 <quaid>	jjmcd: someone from the wide community needs to be a Publican contributor, work on Fedora Docs needs, and maybe take over the package.
Mar 25 21:04:39 <Sparks>	1. Use Publican for a guide but munge through to an RPM that Fedora will
Mar 25 21:04:39 <Sparks>	consume; use jjmcd's script or a new .spec file
Mar 25 21:04:39 <Sparks>	2. Fork Publican and remove the variable that puts the version # in the
Mar 25 21:04:39 <Sparks>	name
Mar 25 21:04:39 <Sparks>	3. Get the Packaging Committee to amend the rules
Mar 25 21:04:39 <Sparks>	4. Use Publican for HTML + PDF and fedora-doc-utils for RPM
Mar 25 21:04:39 <Sparks>	5. Use f-doc-utils exclusively
Mar 25 21:04:40 <stickster>	Because I *think* we could add needed support to the publican-fedora brand pacakge.
Mar 25 21:04:43 <stickster>	*package.
Mar 25 21:05:21 <Sparks>	I don't have a problem with forking the development at this point.
Mar 25 21:05:21 <quaid>	jjmcd: iirc jfearn has stated that he'd love to not maintain the package
Mar 25 21:05:32 <laubersm>	I like the idea of a FPC exception for F11 name with version and long term fix publican to allow no version number
Mar 25 21:05:37 <stickster>	I don't think a fork is required, we could put needed support in the Makefile.fedora
Mar 25 21:05:41 <quaid>	jjmcd: without that level of commitment from some general Fedoran, I fear we'll always be second citizens in the Publican audience
Mar 25 21:05:50 <ke4qqq>	I am rapidly favoring the fork option. Especially if upstream considers these "silly"
Mar 25 21:06:11 *	stickster thinks we should not rush to using the word "fork" if people here simply aren't aware of what we can apply to the publican-fedora package.
Mar 25 21:06:12 <jjmcd>	I don't think the number is the only problem
Mar 25 21:06:18 <stickster>	Let's put that term aside for a moment.
Mar 25 21:06:46 <Sparks>	stickster: It's not in the makefile
Mar 25 21:06:57 <Sparks>	stickster: It is in the core of Publican
Mar 25 21:07:20 <stickster>	Sparks: Well, the thing creating the specfile is an XSL sheet, yes?
Mar 25 21:07:55 <Sparks>	stickster: No idea.  I don't remember where I pulled that line of code out and beat it with a hammer.
Mar 25 21:08:18 <Sparks>	stickster: But if it were that easy, why all the problems four months later?  
Mar 25 21:08:21 <stickster>	So, as a fellow Docs guy, I'm not really comfortable with people yelling "Fork! Fork!" when we don't fully grok the technical stuff
Mar 25 21:08:32 <stickster>	Because then it seems like we really don't know why we're forking.
Mar 25 21:08:39 <Sparks>	Spoon!  Spoon!
Mar 25 21:08:42 <stickster>	heh
Mar 25 21:09:01 <jjmcd>	But it does look to me, at least for F11, that option 4 is the straightest line
Mar 25 21:09:29 <stickster>	jjmcd: The problem is that fedora-doc-utils won't work with Publican formatted materials, and vice versa.
Mar 25 21:09:32 <stickster>	They are mutually incompatible.
Mar 25 21:09:56 <stickster>	(at least, not without some hacking, which, if we're going to do it, we might as well try to do with Publican.)
Mar 25 21:10:02 <stickster>	er, publican-fedora
Mar 25 21:10:02 <jjmcd>	But since all we need is basically a specfile, is it really that big of a deal?
Mar 25 21:10:08 <Sparks>	yeah, we need to get PDF action into fedora-doc-utils IF that is something we want to offer
Mar 25 21:10:13 *	FergatROn (n=Marc c-24-126-129-136 hsd1 ga comcast net) has joined #fedora-meeting
Mar 25 21:10:39 <stickster>	I'll take a task of looking at Publican up through this weekend to see what we can fix. If I don't think it can be done, I should at least explain why to the list.
Mar 25 21:10:45 <jjmcd>	Publican makes docs we can use, it just doesn't package them
Mar 25 21:11:01 *	FergatROn has quit (Client Quit)
Mar 25 21:11:32 *	stickster notes that if jfearn is amenable to our taking over publican-fedora, we should try and implement fixes there.  But if the architecture doesn't allow it, we move on.
Mar 25 21:11:42 <stickster>	Or at least, I will :-)
Mar 25 21:11:44 <Sparks>	jjmcd: We make docs we can use... That last step is putting them in the hands of everyone else
Mar 25 21:12:02 <jjmcd>	Yes, but all that really is is packaging
Mar 25 21:12:15 *	stickster has to bail, late
Mar 25 21:12:24 *	laubersm too
Mar 25 21:12:26 <jjmcd>	ciao
Mar 25 21:12:34 <stickster>	I'll catch up on the log and see what I can do with publican-fedora over the rest of the week
Mar 25 21:12:55 <Sparks>	Okay, I think we should let stickster do some investigating and maybe he can tell us something next week.
Mar 25 21:12:57 <Tsagadai>	option 6 is far easier
Mar 25 21:13:41 <Sparks>	Anything else before we go back to the Beta Announcement?
Mar 25 21:13:57 <jjmcd>	PDF
Mar 25 21:14:02 <Sparks>	yes?
Mar 25 21:14:06 <jjmcd>	Is that something we want,and where
Mar 25 21:14:07 *	stickster is now known as stickster_afk
Mar 25 21:14:22 <ke4qqq>	yes
Mar 25 21:14:24 <Sparks>	Good question.  What are we going to do with a PDF?
Mar 25 21:14:29 <quaid>	jjmcd: we want them for all docs, on docs.fp.o
Mar 25 21:14:48 <jjmcd>	Personally, I like PDFs, but since we don't have them I don't see their place
Mar 25 21:14:53 <quaid>	alongside tarball, html one page, etc.
Mar 25 21:14:56 <Sparks>	quaid: In lieu of html?
Mar 25 21:14:59 <quaid>	jjmcd: long requested feature
Mar 25 21:14:59 <jjmcd>	OK, that would be good
Mar 25 21:15:00 <quaid>	no
Mar 25 21:15:04 <quaid>	alongside html
Mar 25 21:15:20 <quaid>	ppl want to print the Installation Guide, etc.
Mar 25 21:15:24 <Sparks>	+1
Mar 25 21:15:25 <jjmcd>	yepper
Mar 25 21:16:09 <Sparks>	Okay, anything else?
Mar 25 21:16:12 *	laubersm is now known as laubersm_afk
Mar 25 21:16:14 <ke4qqq>	quaid: they might not this release :)
Mar 25 21:16:43 <jjmcd>	because the IG is unhelpful?
Mar 25 21:16:54 <ke4qqq>	because it's up to 172 pages
Mar 25 21:17:17 <jjmcd>	That hard to install, huh
Mar 25 21:17:39 <Sparks>	Okay... back to the announcement
Mar 25 21:17:49 *	Sparks has changed the topic to: Docs Project - Beta Announcement Part 2
Mar 25 21:17:58 <Sparks>	Any other changes?
Mar 25 21:18:53 *	openpercept (n=openperc unaffiliated/openpercept) has joined #fedora-meeting
Mar 25 21:19:39 <Sparks>	I see jjmcd making a few changes
Mar 25 21:19:52 *	dychen_ has quit ("Ex-Chat")
Mar 25 21:20:11 *	dychen_ (n=dingyich d122-105-171-109 rdl15 qld optusnet com au) has joined #fedora-meeting
Mar 25 21:20:44 <jjmcd>	I still keep wondering about gcc.  I feel like we should be warning ppl, but it doesn't seem right in an announcement
Mar 25 21:21:02 *	nman64 (n=n-man fedora/nman64) has joined #fedora-meeting
Mar 25 21:21:33 <jjmcd>	Do we need to talk about replacing HAL?
Mar 25 21:21:42 <jjmcd>	Maybe for the geeks
Mar 25 21:21:50 <Sparks>	the gcc thing still sounds weird
Mar 25 21:21:53 <ke4qqq>	not replacing - but perhaps what replaced it
Mar 25 21:23:00 <Sparks>	volume control model ???
Mar 25 21:23:10 <ke4qqq>	indeed!!!
Mar 25 21:23:14 <Sparks>	Should that just be volume control?
Mar 25 21:23:31 <jjmcd>	yeah
Mar 25 21:23:31 *	ke4qqq thought we were talking about going up to 11
Mar 25 21:23:49 *	jjmcd is still stressing over gcc ... ...
Mar 25 21:24:09 *	n9986 (n=nandeep unaffiliated/n9986) has joined #fedora-meeting
Mar 25 21:25:12 <Sparks>	jjmcd: Is there anything in the RN about power management or "greeness"?
Mar 25 21:25:18 <jjmcd>	ke4qqq - any better?
Mar 25 21:25:36 <jjmcd>	I don't recall seeing anything
Mar 25 21:25:40 *	openpercept has quit ("Leaving.")
Mar 25 21:25:47 <ke4qqq>	worksforme
Mar 25 21:25:55 <ke4qqq>	q
Mar 25 21:25:59 <Sparks>	I thought there was some changes coming for powertop
Mar 25 21:27:06 <jjmcd>	Nothing in the talking points
Mar 25 21:27:22 <Sparks>	Make ext4 the default files system for anaconda-driven installs (replacing ext3). User should notice generally better performance, and benefit from things such as persistent preallocation when using updated torrent clients, and so forth.
Mar 25 21:27:26 <Sparks>	and so forth?
Mar 25 21:28:15 <ke4qqq>	torrent clients seems too much detail
Mar 25 21:28:26 <ke4qqq>	how about better performance?
Mar 25 21:28:29 <ke4qqq>	and end it there?
Mar 25 21:28:58 <jjmcd>	There is a kind of motherhood and apple pie statement in the feature list about power
Mar 25 21:29:05 <ke4qqq>	and so forth?
Mar 25 21:29:47 <ke4qqq>	do my changes to ext4 rile anyones feathers?
Mar 25 21:29:54 <Sparks>	I don't like the "and so forth"
Mar 25 21:30:13 <ke4qqq>	well that disappeared with some other stuff
Mar 25 21:30:17 <Sparks>	jjmcd: What is it?
Mar 25 21:30:32 <Sparks>	ke4qqq: Remove generally?
Mar 25 21:30:44 <ke4qqq>	ok
Mar 25 21:30:47 <jjmcd>	Looking at the feature page for power management and it looks pretty good
Mar 25 21:31:02 <jjmcd>	not so sure it will be easy to say in 25 wors or less
Mar 25 21:31:22 <Sparks>	ke4qqq: how's that?
Mar 25 21:31:24 <Sparks>	jjmcd: link?
Mar 25 21:31:35 <ke4qqq>	why add read/write - one of the cool improvements is fsck time
Mar 25 21:31:44 <jjmcd>	Features/Power_Management - sorry on another box
Mar 25 21:31:48 <ke4qqq>	how about filesystem
Mar 25 21:31:50 <ke4qqq>	?
Mar 25 21:32:29 <ke4qqq>	will is much stronger +1
Mar 25 21:33:00 <Sparks>	:)
Mar 25 21:33:07 <ke4qqq>	am I crazy or does a not belong there?
Mar 25 21:33:08 <Sparks>	YOU WILL!
Mar 25 21:33:17 <Sparks>	where?
Mar 25 21:33:22 <ke4qqq>	shall we move to #fedora-docs?
Mar 25 21:33:42 <ke4qqq>	nm it's addressed now
Mar 25 21:33:50 <ke4qqq>	the a part not the moving
Mar 25 21:33:51 <Sparks>	I don't like ext4, still
Mar 25 21:34:07 *	n9986_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
Mar 25 21:35:34 <Sparks>	Anyone have anything else for the meeting?
Mar 25 21:35:42 *	Sparks has changed the topic to: Docs Project - Anything else?
Mar 25 21:36:24 <Sparks>	Thanks everyone for coming!
Mar 25 21:36:40 <Sparks>	</meeting>

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