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Release Notes Meeting 2009-08-06 IRC log



15:01:18 <Sparks> #startmeeting Docs Project Release Notes Meeting
15:01:27 <Sparks> #topic Roll Call
15:01:28 * Sparks 
15:01:46 * jjmcd .
15:03:28 <jjmcd> I thought zack was gonna be here, don't know who else
15:03:28 * Sparks wonders if rudi fell asleep
15:04:04 <jjmcd> It is the middle of the night there,
15:05:04 <jjmcd> Maybe we'll just make a decision and move on
15:05:12 <Sparks> WORKSFORME
15:05:41 * Sparks was also thinking that we had to use -1 room because the regular meeting room was occupied.
15:05:45 <Sparks> Oh well...
15:05:51 <Sparks> #topic Old Business
15:06:07 <Sparks> jjmcd to determine the affected browsers and contact the developers for the homepage project
15:06:17 <Sparks> I think this was for "homepage"?
15:06:27 <jjmcd> identified browsers, haven't contqacted developers
15:06:45 <Sparks> Which browsers were affected?  Was it just Lynx?
15:07:07 <jjmcd> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Jjmcd/Drafts/Browsers
15:07:13 <jjmcd> Yes, just lynx
15:07:42 <jjmcd> Pretty inconsistent behavior from browser to browser, though
15:07:42 <Sparks> Cool.  That should be easy.
15:07:55 <Sparks> Ya...  What is the proposed fix?
15:08:20 <jjmcd> Probably an internal message like the other browsers would make sense
15:08:28 <Sparks> Ok
15:08:40 <Sparks> So we are depreciating homepage
15:09:02 <jjmcd> I can't see where it makes sense to keep it unless lynx wants to include it in their rpm
15:09:18 <jjmcd> But we should probably send a note to devel-list first
15:09:23 <Sparks> Ya
15:09:42 <jjmcd> So many things have embedded browsers who knows
15:10:12 <Sparks> #action jjmcd to contact lynx developers about homepage
15:10:31 <Sparks> #action jjmcd to contact #f-devel-l about deprecating homepage
15:10:34 <Sparks> anything else?
15:10:51 <jjmcd> I think that takes care of homepage, now, what else wants to be in the rpm
15:11:03 <Sparks> jjmcd to determine space differentials between the combined RN and the individual files in RPMs
15:11:10 <Sparks> ^^^ The other item from last week
15:11:17 <jjmcd> oh yeah, forgot that one
15:11:34 <Sparks> next week?
15:11:41 <jjmcd> I was more concerned about the whole text, html, xml think
15:11:45 <jjmcd> thing
15:12:03 <jjmcd> Should we make all these consistent?
15:12:19 <jjmcd> Should we drop the html which nobody can find anyway?
15:12:19 <Sparks> prolly
15:12:35 <Sparks> we should simplify everything
15:12:45 <Sparks> don't ship stuff that we don't need in formats no one uses
15:13:08 <jjmcd> Personally, I would like to see everything in yelp, nice consistent appearance, easy to find
15:13:29 <Sparks> Does that work in KDE and other desktop environments?
15:13:30 <jjmcd> there is a scrollkeeper tab in kde help, but it doesn't seem to do anything
15:13:42 <jjmcd> but then I am having trouble testing kde
15:13:59 * Sparks should probably install KDE on his box
15:14:04 <jjmcd> can't boot a stick, and my vm install seems weird
15:14:36 <jjmcd> I have kde as another wm, but that isn't the same as having a pure kde box
15:14:44 <Sparks> Ya
15:14:53 <zoglesby> Sorry I am late
15:14:59 <jjmcd> hi zach
15:15:18 <jjmcd> lessee -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Jjmcd/Drafts/Browsers
15:15:26 <jjmcd> I didn't contact the lynx guys yet
15:15:41 <jjmcd> zoglesby, do you us kde?
15:16:02 <zoglesby> no
15:16:11 <zoglesby> xmonad and sometimes gnome
15:16:30 <jjmcd> how does yelp work for you?
15:16:32 <Sparks> zoglesby: You can test xmonad for us, then
15:16:47 <zoglesby> test what?  yelp?
15:17:10 <jjmcd> Trying to decide whether we can get away with release notes in xml only
15:17:46 <jjmcd> We do have a bug, tho, that makes no sense to me.  Changelog doesn't show in yelp
15:19:08 <Sparks> doesn't Publican put the changelog inside the document?
15:19:13 <jjmcd> yes
15:19:28 <jjmcd> that why it makes no sense
15:19:42 <Sparks> just point to it and move on
15:19:45 <Sparks> IMO
15:19:59 <jjmcd> yeah, that one isn't high on my list
15:20:24 <jjmcd> so we have release notes, about fedora, readme, readme burning isos and readme live image all in yelp
15:20:35 <jjmcd> Whether separate RPMs tbd
15:20:48 <Sparks> Well...
15:20:55 <Sparks> let's address that now...
15:21:02 <Sparks> #topic What to include in the RN RPM
15:21:10 <Sparks> So there is...
15:21:28 <Sparks> About Fedora, readme, readme burning isos, and readme live image
15:21:41 <jjmcd> OK, I had readme accessibility as a separate topic in my mind, but we should address that, too
15:21:52 <Sparks> I think the last two shouldn't be distributed
15:22:08 <Sparks> I think we address those two topics in various guides and on the wiki
15:22:15 <jjmcd> because you already know if you got there
15:22:22 <Sparks> ya
15:22:23 <jjmcd> I can buy that
15:22:40 <Sparks> I say we remove those completely
15:22:53 <jjmcd> No complaints from this quarter
15:23:01 <Sparks> zoglesby: ?
15:23:06 <zoglesby> I agree
15:23:15 <Sparks> Okay.  What is the readme?
15:23:20 <jjmcd> ok a little less clutter
15:23:25 <jjmcd> what about accessibility?
15:23:29 <zoglesby> no point in telling a user how to burn a cd if its in the iso
15:23:37 <zoglesby> they cant see it until after they burn it
15:24:00 <Sparks> jjmcd: What is in the accessibility document?
15:24:42 <jjmcd> dunno
15:24:49 <jjmcd> it went missing around 9 or 10
15:25:08 <jjmcd> wait, I have an f8 box
15:25:14 <Sparks> I think that should probably be a guide.
15:25:28 * Sparks assumes it talks about using Fedora with screen readers and such
15:25:43 <zoglesby> that would be my guess
15:26:09 <jjmcd> Oh yeah, it talks about legal requirements and such
15:26:32 <jjmcd> lists a boatload of solutions
15:26:46 <Sparks> Can you send that to me?
15:26:58 <jjmcd> should be in git
15:27:22 <jjmcd> looking
15:27:43 * Sparks doesn't see it
15:28:35 <jjmcd> I don't either ... K, I'll send it.  Take some dancing tho, its on my firewall which is mostly devoid of software
15:29:06 <Sparks> http://cvs.fedoraproject.org/viewvc/release-notes/devel/README-Accessibility?root=docs&view=c
15:29:10 <Sparks> jjmcd: Is that it?
15:29:23 <jjmcd> I think so
15:29:27 <jjmcd> Lets recap
15:29:49 <jjmcd> yelp contains RNs, about-fedora, readme and readme-accessibility
15:30:00 <jjmcd> # of RPMs tbd
15:30:12 <jjmcd> We will somehow check that KDE can use
15:31:06 <jjmcd> That looks familiar
15:31:06 <zoglesby> I will check xmonad and evilwm
15:31:16 <Sparks> #idea We individualize all the packages and not ship them together.
15:31:47 <jjmcd> Perhaps we have an RN-gnome and RN-kde?
15:32:38 <Sparks> I think that's just more work
15:33:00 <jjmcd> I wonder whether that section 508 stuff has been expanded since 2000
15:33:44 * Sparks summons Kevin_Kofler to ask about KDE stuff
15:34:07 <Sparks> jjmcd: I used to do some of the accessibility stuff for East Carolina University
15:34:10 <jjmcd> Sparks, yeah, probably right.  If we can make yelp/scrollkeeper work in kde we should be happy with that
15:34:19 <Sparks> I want to Publicanize that document and make it a guide
15:34:50 <jjmcd> Will you make a guide rpm for yelp?
15:36:11 <Sparks> Well... I can make it a package and make it available in the repo.
15:36:30 * Sparks isn't sure how things get installed by default
15:36:44 <Sparks> But I think it might be helpful to have that information available BEFORE installing
15:36:56 <jjmcd> Well, if I installed selinux-guide it would be nice to see it in yelp with the rest of the docs
15:37:11 <Sparks> it doesn't?
15:37:35 <jjmcd> No, the guides are html
15:38:02 * Sparks sees his guides in System->Documentation
15:38:15 <Sparks> right above Help and About Fedora and...
15:38:26 <jjmcd> Look in help
15:39:09 <Sparks> That's an odd place for those... I mean... maybe not odd but I sure wouldn't go looking there
15:39:17 * Sparks isn't the "help" kinda guy
15:39:48 <jjmcd> Well, "Documentation" doesn't show up until you install a guide
15:40:21 <Sparks> Yes
15:40:46 <Sparks> I think it makes it stand out more.
15:41:01 <Sparks> Because you'll know that something has changed when you install the package
15:41:08 <Sparks> otherwise you might not know where to go and look
15:41:11 <jjmcd> Maybe it makes more sense to put About-Fedora, Readme, Readme-Accessibility and Release-Notes in "Documentation" and leave yelp for the gnome stuff
15:42:00 <Sparks> Maybe
15:42:04 <jjmcd> Again, though, what does that look like in kde?
15:42:13 <jjmcd> That kde menu is just plain weird
15:42:22 <Sparks> yeah.
15:42:34 <Sparks> Apparently no one in #fedora-kde want to come join us
15:42:40 <jjmcd> we need rudi
15:42:48 <Sparks> I'll install KDE later today and will start playing around
15:42:49 <zoglesby> rudi rudi rudi
15:42:55 <jjmcd> Maybe they're all in AUS
15:43:16 <jjmcd> I would if today wasn't so bloody full
15:43:17 <Sparks> Maybe
15:43:34 <zoglesby> the menu issue with kde 4 will be an issue with gnome 3 (shell) anyway
15:44:01 <zoglesby> at least from what I have seen about it
15:44:03 <jjmcd> I tried it on a stick this morning, no joy.  Then in a VM, only a few minutes to play tho.  I have a free partition on my big box, I just hate to reboot it to play
15:44:08 <jjmcd> Aaarghh
15:44:51 <Sparks> Okay
15:45:00 <Sparks> So Accessibility will be taken care of...
15:45:02 <Sparks> what's left?
15:45:23 <Sparks> About-Fedora and Readme
15:46:02 <Sparks> Where is the readme and do we really need that?
15:46:05 <jjmcd> Isn't that kinda small for a guide - acc I mean
15:46:21 <jjmcd> readme has a bunch of misc stuff, i think its pretty useful
15:46:38 <jjmcd> although currently most people will never find it
15:46:43 <Sparks> Maybe, but it is important and I think it should be available in as many formats and to as many people as possible
15:46:57 <jjmcd> now that it is publicanized and on the menu it is probably more useful
15:47:25 <Sparks> Well... I still think packaging everything separately is better
15:47:44 <Sparks> I don't really care if you want it or not...  if you think it is good then I say keep it!
15:47:58 <jjmcd> Yeah, I think we should.
15:48:32 <jjmcd> I notice the readmes weren't localized in F8
15:48:36 <jjmcd> interesting
15:49:06 <jjmcd> Oh, sorry, only accessibility wasn't localized
15:49:23 <jjmcd> hey
15:49:23 <Kevin_Kofler> So I was summoned?
15:49:29 <jjmcd> there's our kde expert
15:49:57 <jjmcd> We were trying to decide about formats for RN's, etc.
15:49:58 <Sparks> Kevin_Kofler: Oh do we have questions for you
15:50:07 <Sparks> RNs == Release Notes
15:50:32 <jjmcd> Right now we have an uneven mix of formats, some html, some text, some xml
15:50:37 <jjmcd> want to clean that up
15:50:58 <jjmcd> Our default is to put everything in yelp but we don't know what that does to kde
15:51:09 <Kevin_Kofler> That's horrible.
15:51:12 <Kevin_Kofler> KDE can't open Yelp files.
15:51:17 <Kevin_Kofler> And Yelp isn't on the KDE spin at all.
15:51:25 <Kevin_Kofler> As it requires the xulrunner stack.
15:51:32 <jjmcd> doesn't scrollkeeper read those files?
15:52:25 <Kevin_Kofler> I don't know. But it's not part of KDE either, I don't think we have this on the KDE spin at this time either.
15:52:46 <jjmcd> I found scrollkeeper in help on the kde live image, but it didn't seem to do anything
15:53:14 <Sparks> Kevin_Kofler: Can you install fedora-security-guide-en-US and tell us how it shows up on your KDE system?
15:53:15 <jjmcd> So, by default, publican puts files under a "Documentation" menu, does that work?
15:53:26 <Kevin_Kofler> Hmmm... http://scrollkeeper.sourceforge.net/browsers.shtml
15:53:47 <Kevin_Kofler> Looks like if you use Scrollkeeper format as opposed to Yelp's native format, you should get the doc to show up in both Yelp and KHelpCenter.
15:53:48 <Sparks> jjmcd: Publican == HTML, right?
15:53:59 <jjmcd> If that's what you build
15:54:14 <Sparks> jjmcd: make srpm-en-US
15:54:40 <jjmcd> yelp is just xml
15:54:41 <Kevin_Kofler> Hmmm, I'm still running F10, the XZ-payload RPMs won't install here. :-(
15:56:50 <Kevin_Kofler> What I do know is that KDE's help browser, KHelpCenter, won't open GNOME programs' Yelp documentations.
15:56:56 <Kevin_Kofler> It doesn't understand the format.
15:57:15 <jjmcd> hmmm, my kde help doesn't look remotely like that
15:57:26 <zoglesby> maybe we need to talk to the teams and get that fixed
15:57:47 <zoglesby> a format that works on both
15:57:49 <jjmcd> Well, there are a pile of auxiliary files, gnome might not provide them
15:59:30 <Kevin_Kofler> My recommendation is to go with plain HTML for the documentation, it works everywhere.
16:00:13 <Sparks> I think that is the output of Publican in srpm mode
16:00:38 <jjmcd> Well, not "plain" html, but rudi is fixing that
16:00:39 * Sparks will test that later today
16:01:13 <jjmcd> Sparks, I think we need to test multiple langs ... I'm not sure Publican actually handles that
16:01:39 <Sparks> ?
16:01:58 <jjmcd> How does KDEhelp deal with languages?  Is there some OMF equivalent?
16:02:37 * Sparks notes it is high noon and time for the board meeting
16:02:44 <jjmcd> Sparks - if you log on in Dutch, do you get the Dutch guide?  I see no evidence in the spec to enable that
16:02:51 <jjmcd> shoot you're right
16:03:01 <jjmcd> looks like more research
16:03:18 <Sparks> jjmcd: Well, if you install the Dutch version of the package...
16:03:40 <jjmcd> What if you have multiple langs installed?
16:03:44 <Sparks> So in Anaconda when you say "I speak Dutch" it should know how to grab the proper language
16:04:14 <jjmcd> On the same system, you get the release notes in the language you logged on with, no matter what you installed with
16:04:36 <Sparks> Well, after you have everything setup you can select which document you open according to the language.  They would all show up
16:04:42 <jjmcd> anaconda doesn't grab packages based on languafe
16:05:06 <Sparks> I don't know
16:05:29 <jjmcd> The packages have all the languages in the rpm
16:05:39 <Sparks> no
16:05:48 <Sparks> errr
16:05:48 <jjmcd> Well, Publican's dont!
16:05:49 <Sparks> maybe
16:06:06 <Sparks> You CAN but the SG is being packaged separately
16:06:18 <jjmcd> But for all the apps, the strings are in a string file
16:06:40 <jjmcd> kinda like our po's
16:06:40 <Sparks> These aren't apps
16:06:49 <Sparks> These are documents
16:06:54 <jjmcd> yeah, but anaconda don't know that
16:07:18 <Sparks> Can we tell it?
16:07:36 <jjmcd> I'm not enough of a spec file guru to tell
16:07:51 <Sparks> nor am I
16:08:05 <jjmcd> I would hate to have to wade through a menu of 42 langs for each doc
16:08:36 <Sparks> You shouldn't have to
16:08:45 <jjmcd> With yelp it is simple - everything is in the lang you logged on with
16:08:50 <jjmcd> just like the apps
16:09:26 <Sparks> Well, I think we might have to build a better egg...
16:09:28 <Sparks> hmm...
16:09:36 <Sparks> Maybe documentation groups by language?
16:10:04 <Sparks> The language you select could automagically tag the proper documentation language?
16:10:12 <jjmcd> OK, lets do some research and go to the board meeting.  Perhaps you can make an F10 RPM for Kevin
16:10:24 <jjmcd> That's how yelp works
16:10:46 <jjmcd> ANd if your language isn't there you get C
16:10:49 <Sparks> F10 should be there
16:11:08 <Sparks> Okay... will do research
16:11:11 <Sparks> anything else?
16:11:39 <Sparks> No?
16:11:43 <jjmcd> no
16:11:49 <Sparks> Thanks Kevin_Kofler for joining us
16:11:55 <Kevin_Kofler> KDE KHelpCenter will use the system's language for its native docs.
16:12:12 <Kevin_Kofler> But of course if you have just plain HTML, there's no obvious way to get that effect. :-(
16:12:35 * jjmcd needs to study kdehelpcenter
16:12:36 <Kevin_Kofler> The desktops work hard on making their formats work well, but unfortunately, interoperability leaves much to be desired.
16:12:36 <Sparks> jjmcd: You know, RH might have already figured this out for us.
16:12:46 <jjmcd> Sparks, they should have
16:13:07 <Sparks> #action Sparks to investigate how RH handles various languages of Publican docs
16:13:57 <Sparks> Okay... Closing down the shop...
16:14:04 <Sparks> Thanks everyone for coming!
16:14:06 <Sparks> #endmeeting

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