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Release Notes Meeting 2009-08-13 IRC log



15:03:13 <Sparks> #startmeeting Release Notes Meeting
15:03:28 * Sparks 
15:03:32 * stickster (somewhat here)
15:03:58 <jjmcd> Well, we already started the discussion we have to have today
15:04:48 <Sparks> Yeah...  let's look at the old tasks and see what we still need to do and then continue that conversation
15:05:13 <Sparks> anyone else?
15:05:18 <jjmcd> where's the minutes?
15:05:20 <stickster> link to the old stuff?
15:05:32 <Sparks> http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2009-August/msg00072.html
15:05:53 <Sparks> I've been posting all the meeting information at the same place as the Docs Meetings
15:06:07 <Sparks> jjmcd to contact lynx developers about homepage
15:06:25 <jjmcd> OK, last week I emailed the lynx maintainer
15:06:30 <jjmcd> no response yet
15:06:45 <jjmcd> still didn't write f-dev-l, wanted the lynx maintainer to have a few days
15:06:54 <jjmcd> and email been borked past coupld
15:07:01 <Sparks> #action jjmcd to follow up with lynx maintainer about homepage
15:07:08 <Sparks> jjmcd to contact #f-devel-l about deprecating homepage
15:07:20 <Sparks> #action jjmcd to contact #f-devel-l about deprecating homepage
15:07:35 <Sparks> Sparks to investigate how RH handles various languages of Publican
15:07:46 <Sparks> rudi: Can you answer that?
15:08:04 <jjmcd> Sparks, I tested, handles them poorly
15:08:06 <Sparks> How does RH manage different languages for installations of RHEL?
15:08:18 <jjmcd> http://www.mi-nts.org/sl/DocMenu3.png
15:08:37 <Sparks> Hmmm
15:09:07 <jjmcd> well, publican, still want to hear what RH does
15:09:14 <Sparks> Ya
15:09:19 <rudi> Sorry -- I'm not sure
15:09:27 <Sparks> I'll try to follow up with mhideo tonight.
15:09:41 <stickster> rudi: Is RHEL 5 using Publican-based docs at this time?
15:09:47 <rudi> Yes
15:09:51 <Sparks> #action Sparks to follow up with mhideo about how RHEL handles multiple languages of Publican docs.
15:10:32 <stickster> Sparks: So when we say "handle," you mean, what's installed by default, and what are considered the expected behaviors when someone installs multiple languages?
15:10:41 <Sparks> yes
15:11:15 * stickster is thinking adopting a Fedora default of "install all languages" needs to go to f-devel-l
15:11:15 <Sparks> Anything else in old tasks?
15:12:11 <Sparks> Okay...  let's move to ideas of handling multiple languages in GNOME
15:12:27 <jjmcd> Well, if it's only Gnome, it's easy
15:12:34 <jjmcd> yelp does the job well
15:13:05 <Sparks> #idea Install all languages and have Yelp figure out what language to display based on logged in language.
15:13:26 <jjmcd> #idea Install all html and write a helper app
15:13:34 <Sparks> Yelp ONLY knows if the file has all the languages in it.  Can it handle it if the languages are in different files?
15:13:51 <jjmcd> THey are in different files
15:14:21 <Sparks> Yeah?  So can they handle various xml files made in Publican?
15:14:23 * stickster confused what "the file" is
15:14:41 <stickster> Yelp expects things to land in /usr/share/gnome/help/$DOCNAME/$LANG/
15:14:50 <jjmcd> Sparks, yes, we take publican's output xml and give that to yelp
15:14:54 <Sparks> "the file" == Publican output of a specific language of a book
15:15:01 <jjmcd> Only prob is yelp doesn't display the changelog
15:15:17 <Sparks> But the changelog is included INSIDE the book
15:15:28 <jjmcd> Yes, but it shows up as empty in yelp
15:15:34 <stickster> jjmcd: Did you know that shaunm can probably help you get that fixed?
15:15:36 <Sparks> file a bug in yelp
15:15:44 * stickster thinks inviting him into this meeting might be good
15:15:53 <stickster> shaunm maintains gnome-doc-utils upstream.
15:15:59 <jjmcd> stickster, no, I didn't.  I suspect it is a yelp bug or a publican-specific tag
15:16:09 <stickster> It's not a publican-specific tag, it's just DocBook
15:16:12 <stickster> <revisionhistory>
15:16:29 <jjmcd> Yeah, kinda strange how it doesn't show up
15:16:58 <jjmcd> So good, now I know it's yelp and not Publican, so I can file a bug
15:17:38 <Sparks> #action jjmcd to file a bug against Yelp to fix revision history from a Publican file
15:18:41 <Sparks> So this is no longer a problem?
15:19:07 <jjmcd> Sparks, FYI: /usr/share/gnome/help/fedora-release-notes
15:19:29 * Sparks really doesn't like this stuff being under "help"
15:20:03 <jjmcd> Publican does not create the omf file. If we stay with yelp, perhaps we should request that feature
15:20:07 * stickster notes that fedora-doc-utils used to have a way of putting things in a Documentation menu, but still using Yelp for the display.
15:20:27 <stickster> I don't think Yelp requires scrollkeeper anymore, but I could be wrong
15:20:41 <jjmcd> Yes, I think in 10 we had about-fedora in two places
15:22:16 <jjmcd> stickster, If I recall, I took some liberties in 11 and was surprised they worked
15:22:32 <jjmcd> So perhaps yelp is smarter than I was giving it credit for
15:23:05 <Sparks> jjmcd: Okay...  experiment with Yelp and see what you can do...
15:23:14 <stickster> There are two ways to make Yelp bring up a doc
15:23:16 <Sparks> let's move on to KDE to see if we can get some ideas out about that.
15:23:23 <stickster> yelp file://$PATH/$DOC.xml
15:23:26 <stickster> or
15:23:31 <stickster> yelp ghelp://$DOCNAME
15:23:40 <jjmcd> We know we can make yelp work, but that doesn't help the KDE guys
15:23:43 <stickster> the second form for things that are entered into whatever's the new form of scrollkeeper
15:23:46 <jjmcd> Ahhh, cool
15:24:14 <jjmcd> and $DOCNAME is a subdir of gnome/help?
15:24:30 <stickster> jjmcd: correct
15:25:08 <jjmcd> I know there are those who would prefer html because it is desktop-agnostic
15:25:25 <Sparks> And on the topic of HTML...
15:25:33 <jjmcd> maybe rudi can enlighten us
15:25:35 <Sparks> KDE can't use XML, AFAIK
15:25:53 <rudi> Sorry guys -- one sec
15:26:10 <Sparks> So do we have to use HTML for KDE?
15:26:21 * stickster notes rudi is in #fedora-meeting right now too
15:26:42 <rudi> Yeah -- power management stuff :)
15:26:56 <Sparks> We see where we rank.
15:27:04 <rudi> lolz
15:27:12 <stickster> http://quality.kde.org/develop/howto/howtodocs.php <-- indicates KDE uses XML
15:27:24 <rudi> Let me check to see what the help on my machine here looks like
15:27:43 <Sparks> So we CAN use xml for both GNOME and KDE?
15:28:07 <stickster> http://kde.org/getinvolved/documentation/
15:29:04 <Sparks> Looks like they are pushing DocBook
15:29:07 <stickster> http://l10n.kde.org/docs/doc-primer/
15:29:21 <stickster> They may require a conversion to HTML for their display tool
15:29:25 * stickster refreshing memory, it's been a while.
15:29:27 <Sparks> http://l10n.kde.org/docs//markup/index.html
15:30:04 <stickster> A lot of these will make things hard for Publican.
15:30:52 <Sparks> Okay...  so what do we NEED to know?
15:30:56 <stickster> Among tags they don't use: articleinfo, edition, sgmltag, productname, productnumber, remark, revhistory (!)
15:31:10 <stickster> Sparks: That HTML is probably going to be the way to go.
15:31:28 <stickster> You would probably need to install two .desktop files for a document
15:32:00 <stickster> One would include "OnlyShowIn=GNOME" and the other "OnlyShowIn=KDE"
15:32:01 <Sparks> two .desktop files?  We'd need to packages for each language...
15:32:11 <Sparks> one with HTML and one with XML...
15:32:23 <Sparks> as I THINK it only packages it with XML, now.
15:32:23 <stickster> Why?
15:32:24 <jjmcd> both with html
15:32:37 <Sparks> Okay... so can Yelp handle HTML?
15:32:39 <jjmcd> No, we package both in the same rpm currently
15:32:49 <Sparks> With Publican?
15:32:50 <stickster> yelp file://$PATH/somefile.html <-- works fine
15:32:54 <stickster> try it:
15:33:07 <jjmcd> Ahhhhh
15:33:15 <stickster> yelp file:///usr/share/doc/HTML/fedora-release-notes/en-US/fedora-release-notes-en-US.html
15:33:25 <stickster> Except that dang .SVG file
15:33:27 <Sparks> Okay, so we aren't going to push any more XML... only HTML?
15:33:40 <jjmcd> We gotta get rid of the svg file
15:34:29 * jjmcd can see he is going to have to get a lot more friendly with sed
15:34:42 <Sparks> So are saying that we will not push any document as XML, only HTTP?
15:34:54 <jjmcd> I don't know we said that
15:35:12 <Sparks> Okay, I ask, then... Why do we need to use XML?
15:35:19 <stickster> Sparks: XML is for the document creation.
15:35:31 <jjmcd> Altho, if we can set up yelp to automagically select the correct html that may be a plus
15:35:33 <Sparks> I'm talking about the end product not the production
15:35:56 <stickster> Sparks: For the end product, I'm not seeing a big reason to ship XML in a package for end users.
15:36:16 <jjmcd> Yeah, I'm thinking that too.  That would cut the payload almost in half
15:36:22 <Sparks> Okay...  now does Publican 1.0 package HTML?
15:36:38 <jjmcd> But I'm from Missouri, I need to do more testing
15:37:30 <Sparks> rudi: Can Publican 1.0 package HTML?
15:37:39 <jjmcd> Don't know what Publican 1.0 does, but 0.44 does it lamely
15:38:06 <Sparks> Well, there is going to be no further development of 0.44 so we need to look towards 1.0
15:38:25 <rudi> Again, I have to say don't know -- I haven't really checked out the packaging features
15:38:47 <jjmcd> Sparks, I'm not sure it matters, at this point I'm not expecting Publican to make the package.  The only question in my mind is can we make it look right for the end user
15:39:02 <Sparks> We have to use Publican
15:39:16 <Sparks> This is a decision that affects ALL our guides
15:39:21 <jjmcd> There are so many things it does wrong now it would be a miracle for it to get them all fixed in the next release
15:39:39 <Sparks> 1.0 has fixed many things.
15:39:49 <jjmcd> OK, I can see that.  But the other guides are only going to be packaged as single languages, right?
15:40:08 <Sparks> yes...  how are you going to do the RN?
15:40:19 <jjmcd> And if you have a single html, publican already does that
15:40:25 <jjmcd> Like we do today
15:40:52 <jjmcd> Like Paul said, we probably need a long discussion with releng if we want to take 41 langs off LiveCD
15:41:13 <Sparks> Well, there are definite negatives to a single package
15:41:31 <Sparks> We wouldn't take the languages off the LiveCD... just separate them
15:41:40 <jjmcd> Yes, but the negatives of multilple packages are much more significant for RNs than for the others
15:41:48 <Sparks> like?
15:42:02 <rudi> That said, how many of those 41 languages are translated to any appreciable degree?
15:42:06 <jjmcd> RNs are in the default distro and, more significantly, in the live CD.
15:42:17 <jjmcd> rudi - I would say better than half
15:42:31 <jjmcd> Only a few are 100% but most are probably >50
15:43:36 <rudi> Only 10 are >50%...https://translate.fedoraproject.org/projects/docs-release-notes/f11-tx/
15:44:12 <jjmcd> So 1/4, makes it an easier sell I suppose, but is that really what we want?
15:44:24 <Sparks> so every time you update a single translation  you are forcing everyone to pull that new RPM even if their language didn't change
15:44:39 <jjmcd> We only do that once per release if at all
15:44:46 <jjmcd> historically
15:44:50 <Sparks> why?
15:45:08 <Sparks> We should be pushing updates many times... whenever they are ready
15:45:20 <jjmcd> Just the way it's been.  By the time there are significant new translations, we are mired in the next release
15:45:22 <Sparks> otherwise, lock the translations after the release
15:46:26 <jjmcd> Sparks, once we have the new tfx, we should be able to gen new rpms easily, but right now it is still a day's job or better
15:46:33 * stickster thinks it would be a good idea for Sparks and jjmcd (and other interested Doc'ers) to stay tuned into the yum-langpack issue
15:46:53 <Sparks> stickster: not familiar with that issue.
15:47:41 <stickster> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/YumLangpackPlugin
15:48:12 <Sparks> jjmcd: Yeah, I know it is a pain but if the translators are doing the work we should reward that
15:48:26 <jjmcd> Sparks, I agree
15:48:31 <rudi> +1
15:48:44 <Sparks> Apparently Transifex 0.7 is being readied now.
15:48:58 * stickster lost on what question we're trying to answer at this point.
15:50:09 <jjmcd> Sparks wants one rpm per language.  Actually makes sense for the guides, I'm not convinced on RNs
15:50:27 <Sparks> What's the difference between the Guides and the RN?
15:50:45 <jjmcd> The RN's get installed by default
15:50:51 <Sparks> so?
15:50:58 <jjmcd> And people expect to find them
15:51:13 <Sparks> So if the Security Guide gets installed by default then that changes things?
15:51:24 <jjmcd> What lang are you going to install?
15:51:28 <Sparks> all of them
15:51:54 <jjmcd> And what lang will be on the LiveCD.  Remember, LiveCD is most folks first exposure to Fedora, and not all of those folks are in the US
15:52:17 <stickster> jjmcd: I'm not sure the release notes SHOULD be installed by default
15:52:23 <Sparks> you said, last week, that the space difference between pushing all langs as a single package or by separating them into separate packages was neglegiable
15:52:35 <jjmcd> I can buy that, but I'm not willing to make that decision unilaterally
15:52:36 <Sparks> jjmcd: All of them
15:52:44 <stickster> You've installed. And now you want to see what's different. Maybe we should provide a way to *get* relnotes.
15:52:59 <rudi> 25 languages are <10%, and of them, 11 are <5%
15:53:14 <jjmcd> That would certainly help out the LiveCD space issues
15:53:28 <rudi> I think there's a "least astonishment" issue here
15:54:00 <jjmcd> rudi, I suspect the most commonly used languages are the most translated, but I don't have data
15:54:23 <rudi> If people click on something purporting to offer them the release notes in Finnish, and the only extent that it's "in Finnish" are a couple of headings and the rest of the text is in English, I think that's a fail
15:54:42 <Sparks> well of course they are the most commonly used languages... they are the only ones that are provided!  :)
15:55:06 <stickster> rudi: I think that offering a download, and indicating the translation level and a link to help improve it... might be a win
15:55:13 * stickster has to split for another meeting
15:55:36 <jjmcd> Could be that I'm somewhat Euro-centric, but I suspect there are more Dutch users than Assamese, for example
15:55:58 <jjmcd> stickster, That does sound like a good idea
15:56:36 <jjmcd> I'm also assuming that if we have a large user community, we likely have a large translator community, too
15:57:31 <Sparks> Okay... five minutes left...
15:57:45 <Sparks> Did we agree to only ship HTML and no XML?
15:57:57 <jjmcd> Sparks, I could see fancying up docs.fp.o to include trans stats, and f-r-n.rpm simply has a menu entry
15:58:11 <Sparks> jjmcd:  I'm good with that
15:58:18 <rudi> jjmcd -- great idea
15:58:43 <jjmcd> rudi, is there a clean way to capture trans stats when we make the html?
15:59:05 <jjmcd> We want the online stats to reflect the production doc so we can't just link to tfx
15:59:24 <rudi> In Publican 0.x yes -- really nice actually
15:59:25 <jjmcd> I would hate to do that by hand, but we could
15:59:38 <rudi> But I think the feature was dropped in 1.0 coz no-one was using it :)
15:59:48 <jjmcd> cool, OK then, lets assume that;s our jumping off point
15:59:59 <jjmcd> :-(
16:00:12 <rudi> But Transifex gives us statistics right there
16:00:48 <jjmcd> Yes, but can I write a script to capture tfx stats into index.php at the time I make index.php
16:01:03 <jjmcd> Oh wait
16:01:09 <rudi> I don't know -- ask glezos :)
16:01:19 <jjmcd> One of the utils tells me that, so of course I can script it
16:01:27 <jjmcd> Just gotta figure out how
16:02:10 <jjmcd> You just reminded me that there is a util somewhere that looks at the po and tells me the % xlated which is exactly what we want
16:02:29 <rudi> Yeah, one of the gettext utilities
16:02:33 <jjmcd> yep
16:02:34 <rudi> *thinking*
16:02:41 <rudi> msgfmt?
16:03:48 <jjmcd> I'll find it
16:03:59 <rudi> msgfmt --statistics, I think
16:04:32 <jjmcd> Ahhh yes, man says so
16:05:15 <rudi> Yep -- just confirmed it
16:05:22 <jjmcd> So I could take that output and use it to add % trans to index.php
16:06:11 <jjmcd> OH I gotta go too
16:06:18 <Sparks> Did we agree to only ship HTML and no XML?
16:06:22 <jjmcd> Looks like we have a plan
16:06:25 <rudi> Yep -- 2AM and bedtime here
16:06:31 <jjmcd> No, we are only going to ship a menu item
16:06:43 <Sparks> a menu item?
16:07:01 <Sparks> to point to docs.fp.o?
16:07:02 <jjmcd> We'll save LiveCD 20 megs, people will get latest version, and trans stats
16:07:05 <jjmcd> Yep
16:07:16 <Sparks> What about those that don't have web access?
16:08:07 <jjmcd> Not much in Fedora works without web access these days, anyway.  That was bbasically stickster's suggestion so lets talk about that with him, but use this as our current target
16:08:47 <Sparks> Okay.... I'm good with that approach for the LiveCD...  I'm thinking about our SIPRNET users and airplane users
16:08:49 <jjmcd> I'm thinking the 22Mb will be worth more than the problem with offline
16:09:10 <Sparks> ya
16:09:13 <Sparks> Okay... anything else?
16:09:44 <Sparks> #endmeeting

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