Docs Meeting 2009-07-02 IRC log

[Eric Christensen]

00:00:44 <Sparks> #startmeeting
00:01:01 <Sparks> #maintopic Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings#Agenda_for_Next_Meeting
00:01:39 <Sparks> Hmmm....
00:01:45 <Sparks> #topic Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings#Agenda_for_Next_Meeting
00:01:51 <Sparks> Roll Call!!!
00:01:54 * Sparks is here
00:01:59 * radsy is here
00:02:00 <ianweller> hi!
00:02:07 * jjmcd is here
00:02:12 <joat> annette!
00:02:16 * ianweller adds something to the agenda really fast
00:02:21 * poelcat here for ~ 30min (schedule worked out)
00:03:30 * ianweller is done adding things to the agenda
00:03:32 <Sparks> poelcat: Great, we'll get you in at the beginning
00:03:34 * quaid is here
00:03:39 <Sparks> ianweller: noted
00:03:48 <ianweller> Sparks: oh you were looking for #meetingtopic earlier instead of #maintopic
00:03:55 <ianweller> Sparks: or you can pass that as an argument to #startmeeting.
00:04:19 * Sparks moves some things around...
00:04:34 <Sparks> ianweller: That's what I was looking for...  Gees...
00:04:35 <Sparks> TU
00:05:43 <Sparks> Okay... I've modified the agenda a bit...
00:06:04 <Sparks> #meetingtopic Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings#Agenda_for_Next_Meeting
00:06:19 <Sparks> #topic F12 Calendar <-- poelcat
00:06:51 <Sparks> poelcat has been nice enough to create a calendar for us for the F12 release...
00:06:58 <poelcat> looking to see if there was any feedback on the schedules I proposed
00:07:02 <Sparks> and he sent it to everyone via the list.
00:07:13 <Sparks> Has everyone looked at it?
00:07:26 <poelcat> also curious if there was any interest in the ical/ics file?
00:07:28 * Sparks goes to get the links real quick.
00:07:38 <Sparks> poelcat: I like the ical...
00:07:47 <ianweller> someone have a link handy?
00:07:53 <quaid> it's worth having anyway
00:07:57 <jjmcd> Don't know enough about what we are going to do to know whether it makes sense or not
00:08:00 <Sparks> #link http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-12/f-12-docs-tasks.html
00:08:12 <Sparks> #link http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-12/f-12-docs-and-releng-tasks.html
00:08:20 <Sparks> #link http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-12/f-12-docs.ics
00:08:32 <Sparks> The first link is the docs tasks on a calendar...
00:08:46 <Sparks> the second link is the docs + releng tasks on a calendar...
00:08:57 <Sparks> and the third link is the docs ics
00:09:39 <Sparks> jjmcd: This is the master calendar for the F12 release.
00:09:52 <jjmcd> Yes, but I have significant questions
00:09:59 <Sparks> jjmcd: go!
00:10:11 <jjmcd> Now that alpha is a real alpha, for example, does the 1 page RN's make sense
00:10:37 <jjmcd> Before alpha was a hoax, now it is feature complete
00:10:59 <poelcat> i took the previous "beta" tasks and relabled them "alpha"
00:11:21 <jjmcd> That is probably not too bad an approximation
00:11:42 <jjmcd> Especially since we probably don't really know how alpha and beta will turn out
00:11:56 <poelcat> the biggest things to consider are "is there enough time to do the tasks listed and do the order of events look right"
00:12:04 <jjmcd> What Jesse things might not turne out
00:12:11 <poelcat> + based on what you learned in F11... have we factored that in
00:12:48 <jjmcd> I think that is a good start
00:13:07 <poelcat> i can always change/adjust things
00:13:32 <poelcat> and most importantly as you notice things in F12 that don't work well that you want to change for F13... tell me as they happen
00:13:46 <poelcat> and i'll start factoring them into a draft for f13
00:14:13 * poelcat says f13 for one more channel highlight for jesse ;-)
00:14:35 <Sparks> Gees, are we already thinking f13?
00:14:46 <poelcat> well nobody else probably is, but I do :)
00:14:51 <Sparks> I mean, gees, we just got done with f11 and we are already thinking f13?
00:14:56 <Sparks> f13
00:14:57 <ianweller> always think ahead
00:15:01 <Sparks> f13...  Wow... f13
00:15:02 <Sparks> :)
00:15:09 <quaid> yeah, poor Jesse
00:15:22 <quaid> his nick will light up for _years_
00:15:32 <poelcat> another important thing to consider is handoffs between translation team and docs
00:15:49 <poelcat> and to verify if those look right
00:16:03 <Sparks> jjmcd: How long did it take the translators to finish the RN for f11?
00:16:17 <jjmcd> several weeks - three i think
00:16:36 <poelcat> i created another special version for that: http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-12/f-12-docs-and-trans-tasks.html
00:16:37 <Sparks> and that's with making changes along the way, right?
00:16:47 <jjmcd> yes
00:17:13 * Sparks would still like to figure out a better process so we aren't making so many changes
00:17:16 <jjmcd> I think it ought to go better with propere warning
00:18:47 <Sparks> Yeah
00:18:57 <Sparks> so any more input to the calendar?
00:19:12 <Sparks> poelcat: Can you put our weekly meeting on the ics?
00:20:07 <poelcat> Sparks: i can definitely try... there are some things that make creating the ics not so straight forward
00:20:15 <Sparks> I can imagine.
00:20:20 <Sparks> Okay, anything else about this topic?
00:20:26 <poelcat> as just building the taskjuggler file, but it will either work or it won't
00:20:33 <poelcat> the challenge is landing it at the right time
00:20:38 <poelcat> i'll look into it
00:20:48 <Sparks> Thanks
00:21:05 <poelcat> what is the official meeting time in UTC ?
00:21:22 <Sparks> 0001 UTC
00:21:31 <Sparks> and we go for an hour or so
00:21:34 <poelcat> got it.. that's all from me
00:21:39 <Sparks> Thanks!
00:21:41 <Sparks> Anyone else?
00:21:58 <Sparks> #topic Status on CC license discussion. <--quaid
00:22:06 * Sparks hears quaid has news
00:23:00 <Sparks> quaid: Ummm... quaid?
00:23:02 <joat> mebbe he didn't hear his que
00:23:05 <quaid> ok
00:23:11 <quaid> yeah, silent alarm or what
00:23:23 <quaid> I don't have any more news than what was on list
00:23:31 <quaid> i) we seem to have consensus
00:23:50 <quaid> ii) but there is concern that people will feel overridden by the CLA directives being used
00:24:10 <quaid> iii) I'm writing a blog post that gives all the Real and Great Reasons we need to enact the nuclear option in the CLA
00:24:32 <quaid> once that is out there...maybe a thread'O'doom on f-devel-l is called for?
00:24:43 <quaid> the point is, we need to alert people the change is imminent
00:24:50 <quaid> maybe set a deadline for comments?  2 weeks?
00:24:56 <quaid> and spread the word wide and noisy
00:24:57 <quaid> wait
00:24:58 <quaid> then do it
00:25:01 <quaid> <eof.
00:25:04 <quaid> comments? questions?
00:25:08 <Sparks> Well... I'd like a quick vote...  Does anyone have any problem with using the CLA to push the license change?
00:25:24 <quaid> vote--
00:25:25 <Sparks> +1 to changing the license using the nuclear option
00:25:31 <quaid> we have a consensus on list
00:25:34 <rudi> +1
00:25:52 <quaid> if there are objections,we need to take them right back to the discussion, is all I'm saying.
00:25:56 <Sparks> quaid: Yeah, I just want to make sure no one here has any problems that we can work on now.
00:26:02 <quaid> so even a single -1 == back to the list IMO
00:26:10 <Sparks> yes
00:26:30 <quaid> did I sufficiently answer Sparks questions on list?
00:26:44 <quaid> that was what made me realize I needed to do a wider post; reexplain from the top,etc.
00:26:47 <ianweller> what?
00:26:57 <quaid> ianweller: your coffee is boiling over
00:27:23 <ianweller> ocrap
00:27:25 <ianweller> ;)
00:27:40 <ianweller> quaid: oh god a thread'O'doom?!
00:27:47 <ianweller> i don't need more email than i'm already getting
00:28:33 <Sparks> Anyone care to put a vote down or am I to assume that no vote is a +1 vote?
00:28:43 <jjmcd> I'll vote 0
00:28:47 <quaid> ianweller: I expect arrows, mud,and pitch
00:29:01 <ianweller> quaid: i expect all of that to be flaming. :(
00:29:03 <quaid> when we tell people that the CLA needs to be used to change a license like that
00:29:14 * ianweller votes 0 on the proposal, i just wanna nuclearize it now ;)
00:29:23 <quaid> jjmcd: are you unsettled by something?
00:29:40 <quaid> at the least,folks,make sure I answer all the questions when I write this article :)
00:29:43 <jjmcd> I like the CC by SA, a little uncomfortable wit pushing too hard
00:30:09 <quaid> my argument is that we are on a teeny, tiny island all by ourselves
00:30:18 <Sparks> jjmcd: The problem we have is the problem of calling in everyone that has ever touched anything that is covered by the license.  We just can't do that.
00:30:19 <quaid> for example,we rewrite GNOME docs each release.
00:30:40 <quaid> for our ability to do open content
00:30:41 <jjmcd> Yeah, the best we can do is to get all our current contributors to buy in
00:30:48 <quaid> the relicensing is crucial
00:31:16 <Sparks> jjmcd: Yes and I think we (Docs) has been doing that.
00:31:30 <quaid> ok, I'll write my piece, cross post it,and see where that goes
00:31:41 <jjmcd> I haven't heard objections, but I haven't heard from laubersm, don't recall Zach
00:31:43 <quaid> OK with setting a 2 week deadline for discussion?
00:32:03 <jjmcd> Sounds like a plan
00:32:11 <quaid> Apache consensus rules are in effect
00:32:16 <Sparks> quaid: Yes... 2 weeks from today.  If we need to we'll hold a town hall meeting and I'll put you at the front of the room. :)
00:32:26 <quaid> if someone doesn't speak up in a reasonable period of time, that is taken as consent :)
00:32:33 <quaid> Sparks: OK!
00:32:58 <jjmcd> But lets make a special effort to be sure the F10 contributors have heard the story
00:32:58 <Sparks> :)
00:33:06 <quaid> jjmcd: how?
00:33:11 <quaid> that is, we've been discussing it on list for 6 weeks
00:33:30 <jjmcd> Direct email to those that haven't been here - I doubt there's more than 2 or three
00:33:53 <quaid> ok
00:33:57 * quaid will do that
00:34:10 <jjmcd> I don't forsee a problem, but some have been busy lately, I'm thinking of laubersm but I suspect there may be one or two others
00:34:16 <Sparks> quaid: We can hit the list that goes to everyone that is on the Docs FAS group
00:34:38 <quaid> Sparks: but they should all be on f-docs-l
00:34:45 <quaid> I'll email people
00:34:52 <quaid> who committed changes to any repo for the last two releases
00:35:04 <jjmcd> Yeah, I don't know we need to go after the whole list - quaid - exactly
00:35:11 <quaid> but I don't want to circumnavigate the established channels of communication.
00:35:29 <quaid> the list == the channel, but hey :)
00:35:35 <jjmcd> ;-)
00:36:29 <jjmcd> After listening to Paul and Jan maybe I'm a little over sensitive
00:36:59 <Sparks> Okay, anything else?
00:37:57 <Sparks> #topic Ian has news from CC on the licensing change marketing whatnottery
00:38:00 <Sparks> ianweller: Go!
00:39:16 <Sparks> Is someone else asleep?
00:40:10 <jjmcd> hmmm - while I was watching ianweller changed from 10 minutes ago to 144 minutes ago, whats up with that
00:40:16 <Sparks> Okay, we'll come back to him.
00:40:20 <ianweller> what?
00:40:21 <ianweller> i'm here
00:40:30 <ianweller> sorry :)
00:40:34 <quaid> marketeer time
00:40:35 <Sparks> ianweller: ^^^ topic
00:40:46 <ianweller> http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2009-July/msg00003.html <-- got this from CC today.
00:40:51 <ianweller> it's been sent to fedora-docs-list as you can tell.
00:40:59 <ianweller> that's all i've got ;)
00:42:00 <Sparks> ianweller: Well... what is it?
00:42:12 <ianweller> that they're willing to make a blog post
00:42:28 <ianweller> saying "hey look they switched licenses whee"
00:42:35 <ianweller> and we just need top ing them when we're ready to do that
00:43:12 <Sparks> cool
00:43:16 <Sparks> Anyone have any questions?
00:44:02 <Sparks> #topic Shared open-source style guide
00:44:08 <Sparks> ke4qqq: You around tonight?
00:45:20 <Sparks> I guess not.
00:45:39 <Sparks> I don't think there has been any change.  Does anyone have any questions or comments?
00:46:24 <ianweller> no
00:46:27 <Sparks> #topic Bugzilla Component Changes
00:46:38 <Sparks> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Sparks/BZ_and_Guide_Table
00:46:58 <Sparks> So I started the process of moving files around and removing the products from our BZ component.
00:47:22 <Sparks> If anyone has a project that needs to be in BZ please let me know and I can get you setup pretty quickly.
00:47:31 <Sparks> Anyone have any questions or comments?
00:48:23 <Sparks> #topic
00:48:28 <Sparks> #topic Outstanding BZ Tickets
00:48:42 <Sparks> #link http://tinyurl.com/lgx98o
00:48:54 <Sparks> If everyone would take a look at the above link...
00:49:03 <ianweller> those tickets are just outstanding! ;)
00:49:13 <Sparks> these are the outstanding tickets that were opened during the month of June that haven't been accepted.
00:49:40 <Sparks> ianweller: Yes they are because these are tickets that people filed because they care enough about our products!
00:49:51 <ianweller> :D
00:50:58 <Sparks> I'm not going to go through them all tonight but I would like to start running through the ones we need to work on so we can respond to the appropriately.
00:51:10 <Sparks> but feel free to take one!
00:52:07 <Sparks> questions?
00:52:25 <Sparks> #topic DocsProject wiki pages changes
00:52:32 <Sparks> ianweller: What's the word on wikibot?
00:52:42 <ianweller> it's on my to-do list
00:53:29 <Sparks> Okay...
00:53:42 <ianweller> IOW, nothing. :(
00:54:04 <Sparks> Yeah...  Well, we should probably revisit this again and see what needs to be done.
00:54:09 <Sparks> questions?
00:54:51 <Sparks> #topic With the new definition of alpha and beta, do we need to treat release notes differently?
00:54:58 <Sparks> jjmcd: Did you put this up there?
00:55:04 <jjmcd> Yes
00:55:20 <jjmcd> I wonder whether the one pager is in keeping with "feature complete"
00:55:45 <jjmcd> Not sure that it is realistic to do much more so early tho
00:55:56 <Sparks> the one pager?  Is this the idea stickster_afk had at the FAD?
00:56:03 <jjmcd> But I haven't fully digested the schedule and what it means
00:56:12 <jjmcd> No, that's what poelcat just sait
00:56:15 <jjmcd> said
00:56:41 <jjmcd> What we used to do for beta
00:56:47 <Sparks> Ahhh
00:57:06 <Sparks> Well, if you want to do something different this time around I'm all ears.
00:57:21 <jjmcd> f13 really wants alpha and beta to actually be alpha and beta, and I understand his point
00:57:38 <jjmcd> but I obviously can't predict whether what he wants will actually happen
00:58:26 <jjmcd> So perhaps this needs another week for a more meaningful discussion, with proposals for ppl to chew on
00:59:03 <Sparks> worksfor me
00:59:18 <jjmcd> I'll digest it all over the next week
00:59:42 <jjmcd> Still haven't dug out from my email since I was away
00:59:59 <jjmcd> All that Berliner Kindl you know
01:00:07 <Sparks> :)
01:00:56 <Sparks> okay, so we'll discuss it more next week.
01:01:06 <jjmcd> Also I spoke with glezos and the German translator about their problems
01:01:22 <Sparks> Anything to report?
01:01:37 <jjmcd> Not really, just what you would expect, except perhaps
01:01:49 <jjmcd> that the new transifex will help us both
01:01:58 <rudi> Amen
01:02:20 <Sparks> when will that be up and running?
01:02:29 <rudi> Well, it's finally been packaged
01:02:40 <Sparks> That's encouraging.
01:02:42 <rudi> So I guess RSN :)
01:03:10 <rudi> As I understand, that was the blocker
01:03:28 <quaid> usually is
01:03:36 <rudi> ;)
01:03:40 <jjmcd> Also
01:03:46 * quaid >muffle, muffle, murg<
01:04:16 <jjmcd> spot didn't laugh too much at my spec file, so I guess I have more confidence in pushing to do whatever I need to in order to won that and get Jesse out of the loop
01:04:24 * ianweller has to run, bye
01:04:30 <jjmcd> s/won/own
01:04:40 <jjmcd> seeYA ianweller
01:06:33 <jjmcd> eof
01:06:34 <Sparks> Okay, anything else?
01:06:46 <Sparks> #topic Guide needs?
01:06:53 <Sparks> Anyone have any needs for their guides?
01:07:41 <Sparks> I guess not...
01:07:48 <Sparks> #topic New Guides
01:07:55 <Sparks> Okay, someone put down the RPM guide
01:07:58 <Sparks> Who was that?
01:08:06 <jjmcd> Florian asked if we could take over the rpm guide
01:08:19 <jjmcd> apparently the guide in docs.fp.o might not be THE guide
01:08:21 <Sparks> Who is Florian?
01:08:36 <jjmcd> he is going to send me a link to their repo so I can look at it
01:08:42 <Sparks> I have no problems with it.  I have a ticket open for it to be moved to the wiki for redevelopment.
01:08:49 <jjmcd> and then come to one of our meetings to discuss it
01:09:01 <Sparks> .bug 508930
01:09:02 <jjmcd> I see that, not sure that wiki is the desired target but
01:09:03 <buggbot> Bug https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=508930 medium, low, ---, fedora-docs-list, NEW, Move RPM Guide to wiki
01:09:06 <zodbot> Sparks: Bug 508930 Move RPM Guide to wiki - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=508930
01:09:07 <buggbot> Bug 508930: medium, low, ---, fedora-docs-list, NEW, Move RPM Guide to wiki
01:09:08 <quaid> um what?
01:09:19 <quaid> which guide is not which guide?
01:09:28 <jjmcd> we can discuss it when we have him on channel
01:09:32 <quaid> ok
01:09:53 <quaid> fwiw, yeah, converting from XML to wiki is rarely a good idea :)
01:10:05 <jjmcd> I think he is talking about the guide at rpm.org
01:10:27 <jjmcd> Evidently the rpm guys can't even build th guide
01:10:52 <Sparks> quaid: I know but things die in docs.fp.o, too
01:11:00 <jjmcd> So for now, jut a heads up that this is coming
01:11:28 <Sparks> jjmcd: Cool
01:11:28 <quaid> oh, I wonder if the one at rpm.org is the same guide, of sourts
01:11:31 <Sparks> Anyone else?
01:11:32 <quaid> ok, I'll hold my fire.
01:13:20 <Sparks> #topic All other business
01:13:27 <Sparks> Okay, does anyone have anything else?
01:14:15 <Sparks> 5
01:14:18 <Sparks> 4
01:14:20 <Sparks> 3
01:14:23 <Sparks> 2
01:14:26 <Sparks> 1
01:14:33 <Sparks> Thanks for everyone coming!
01:14:36 <Sparks> #endmeeting

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