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Docs Meeting 20090604

Here is the log file for June 4, 2009's Docs meeting, summary will be out soon.

02:00 < Sparks> <meeting id="Docs Project">
02:00 -!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Welcome to the Docs Project Meeting - 
          Agenda: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings#Agenda_for_Next_Meeting
02:00 < Sparks> Roll Call!
02:00  * Sparks is here
02:00  * zoglesby is here
02:01 -!- jjmcd [n=jjmcd 75-134-169-186 dhcp bycy mi charter com] has joined #Fedora-meeting
02:02  * rudi is here
02:02 -!- stickster_afk is now known as stickster
02:03  * jjmcd .
02:04 < Sparks> zoglesby: Can you handle the log for tonight?
02:04 < zoglesby> I don't have logs...
02:05 < zoglesby> I can scroll and copy and paste
02:05 < zoglesby> unless someone can tell me how to log in irssi real fast
02:05 -!- stickster is now known as stickster_afk
02:06 -!- adamw [n=AdamW redhat/adamw] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
02:06 < Sparks> zoglesby: No, that's how you do it, I think.
02:06 < Sparks> Anyone else for the Docs Meeting?
02:06 -!- stickster_afk is now known as stickster
02:06 < zoglesby> Sparks: I can do it then
02:07  * Sparks wonders where everyone is tonight.
02:08 < jjmcd> Watching the Wings?
02:08 < Sparks> Maybe...
02:08 < Sparks> Well, let's get started..
02:08  * stickster is sorry he's late
02:08 < stickster> I can handle logs if needed.
02:09 < Sparks> stickster: Be a backup...  I think zoglesby needs to practice... :)
02:09 -!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Project - [[FAD SELF 2009]] <-- ke4qqq
02:09 < zoglesby> ill do it, but I thought irssi had a log function
02:09  * stickster is apparently at the mercy of LAG
02:09 < stickster> Will do
02:09 < Sparks> Well... I don't know where ke4qqq is but I'll talk a little about FAD.
02:09 < stickster> It does, IIRC
02:10 < Sparks> SELF @ Clemson on Jun 13.  The day after we will have a Docs FAD.
02:10 < stickster>  /RAWLOG open <filename>
02:10 < Sparks> We will be looking heavily at F12 processes and how to improve them.
02:11 < stickster> Yay!
02:11 < Sparks> If you plan on attending please sign up at 
02:11  * stickster will be there too, flight is not until ~5:30 or 6:00pm
02:11 < Sparks> Cool
02:11 < Sparks> Does anyone have any questions about SELF or the FAD?
02:11 < zoglesby> is there going to be a conf call number?
02:12 < jjmcd> 2008?
02:12 < Sparks> Yeah, I think so
02:12  * ke4qqq is here
02:12 < ke4qqq> but late
02:12 -!- adamw [n=AdamW S010600226b8aa2ea vc shawcable net] has joined #fedora-meeting
02:12 < Sparks> ke4qqq: Anything to add?
02:12 -!- spoleeba [n=one fedora/Jef] has joined #fedora-meeting
02:13 < stickster> Who's responsible for setting up the call stuff?
02:13 < stickster> i.e. hardare
02:13 < ke4qqq> nothing here - you covered most of it
02:13 < stickster> *hardware, even
02:13 < ke4qqq> stickster: I am
02:13 < stickster> Do you need anything that I can help provide?
02:13 < ke4qqq> ianweller is also bringing his
02:13 < ke4qqq> yourself
02:13 < ke4qqq> and that's it
02:13 < stickster> :-) done!
02:13 -!- asgeirf_ [n=asgeirf 124-171-209-152 dyn iinet net au] has quit [Remote closed the 
02:14 < Sparks> Okay, anything else?
02:14 < ke4qqq> eof from me
02:14 < Sparks> ke4qqq: I'm assuming you'll send out an email or put something on the wiki about how 
                to remotely attend.
02:14 < ke4qqq> yeah I need to remmeber the conf number for docs
02:15 < ke4qqq> but yes we'll do that
02:15 < Sparks> 2008
02:15 -!- jsmith [n=jsmith asterisk/training-and-documentation-guru/jsmith] has joined #fedora-meeting
02:15 < ke4qqq> in the next day or so
02:15 < Sparks> Cool
02:15 < Sparks> Okay, moving on...
02:15 -!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Project - Status on 
          [http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/us/ CC] license discussion.  <--quaid
02:15 < Sparks> Last week we started discussing changing our licensing from OPL to CC-BY-SA.
02:15 < Sparks> I don't think quaid is with us tonight, though, so I don't know what the status is.
02:16 < Sparks> Does anyone have any questions about the change?
02:16 < stickster> Were we waiting for something to be resolved regarding compatibility with internal 
                   RH teams?
02:16 < Sparks> kinda
02:16  * stickster not sure what quaid is meant to answer, and would be happy to send some email 
          around to check on stuff
02:17 < Sparks> I think we were waiting to make sure everything was okay
02:17 -!- asgeirf_ [n=asgeirf 124-171-209-152 dyn iinet net au] has joined #fedora-meeting
02:17 < Sparks> quaid said he was going to run with it within the RH community.
02:17 < ke4qqq> I think we were also waiting on which specific version of cc-by-sa RH Legal was going 
                to bless
02:17 < stickster> k
02:17 < stickster> Yeah, I'm sure there was some further Legal review required in there.
02:18 < Sparks> yeah...  okay, anything else?
02:18  * stickster stands back and lets everyone do their thang
02:18 < Sparks> okay, moving on...
02:18 -!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Project - Status on Release Notes <-- 
          ryanlerch & jjmcd
02:18 < Sparks> jjmcd: So what's the status on the RN?
02:18 < jjmcd> We got an update today I think, still need to check more to be sure it isn't there in 
               different words
02:18 < jjmcd> but all on docs.fp.o
02:19 < Sparks> excellent.
02:19 < jjmcd> If change only en-US will make it to docs.fp.o for release
02:19 < Sparks> Yeah, I saw the update come through earlier.
02:19 < jjmcd> but rest will get through on an update
02:19 < jjmcd> we are now in a position where we can easily produce an update rpm
02:19 < Sparks> Have you already pushed the RPM up?
02:19 < jjmcd> from like a week ago
02:20 < stickster> That's the standard GA one, right?
02:20 < stickster> 11.0.0-2?
02:20 < jjmcd> Yeah
02:20 < jjmcd> 11.0.1 I thinlk
02:20 < jjmcd> 11.0.1 I think
02:20 < stickster> Ooo
02:20 < stickster> That's the zero day? Includes L10n?
02:20 < jjmcd> yes
02:20 < stickster> Wow, bonzer
02:20 < jjmcd> but if we have a REAL zero day
02:21 < jjmcd> I've also been working on linking to reduce space
02:21 < jjmcd> Recognized some odd things with yelp, still not sure whats going on there
02:21 < jjmcd> yelp documentation seems to be lacking
02:22 < jjmcd> We're not seeing icons in note, tip, etc
02:22 < jjmcd> But that appears to be yelp's to do, all we do is say, e.g. <tip>
02:22 < stickster> jjmcd: You and I probably need to collaborate on that so I can help you keep your 
02:23 < jjmcd> Works fine on 10, not on 11.  But I'm not 100% certain that I've found all of yelp's 
02:23 < jjmcd> stickster, sounds like a plan
02:23 < Sparks> jjmcd: Anything else?
02:23 < jjmcd> No
02:23 < Sparks> anyone?
02:23 -!- Cheshirc [n=Sam unaffiliated/cheshirc] has joined #fedora-meeting
02:24 < zodbot> Announcement from my owner (stickster): FESCo nominee town hall meeting at 0200 UTC 
                (~100 minutes from now) -- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Elections#IRC_Town_Halls
02:24 < stickster> Me realizes "need" is a lot of assumption, maybe "could" is better :-)
02:24 -!- asgeirf_ [n=asgeirf 124-171-209-152 dyn iinet net au] has quit [Remote closed the 
02:24 < jjmcd> '-)
02:24 < Sparks> Okay, moving on...
02:24 -!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Project - Status on Release 
          Announcement <-- Sparks
02:24 -!- asgeirf_ [n=asgeirf 124-171-209-152 dyn iinet net au] has joined #fedora-meeting
02:24 < Sparks> Thanks to everyone who helped out with the Announcement.
02:25 < Sparks> It has been tweaked, pounded, deleted, restored, and edited.
02:25 < Sparks> I think we are done with it.  :)  There are links to the RNs and to the Installation 
                Guide at the bottom so it's good for us.
02:25 < jjmcd> I just wish you guys could hear George Dobbs, G3RJV, talk.
02:25 < Sparks> jjmcd: Freq?
02:25 -!- joat [n=joat ip70-174-79-200 hr hr cox net] has joined #fedora-meeting
02:25 < jjmcd> He's a British minister and sounds just like that
02:25 < Sparks> :)
02:26 < jjmcd> FDIM ;-)
02:26 < joat> whew!
02:26 < Sparks> Does anyone have any questions or comments on the Announcement?
02:26 < Sparks> Okay, moving on...
02:27 -!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Project - Status on Installation Guide 
          <-- ke4qqq & rudi
02:27 < stickster> Did anyone let the translators know that they could run with it and abandon the 
                   top part at will?
02:27  * stickster can't remember whether he remembered to fire something off on that or not.
02:27 -!- ldimaggi_ [n=ldimaggi pool-96-252-14-181 bstnma fios verizon net] has joined #fedora-meeting
02:27 < Sparks> Ummm... not from this office
02:27 < jsmith> I thought it was at the list...
02:27 -!- ldimaggi_ is now known as ldimaggi_home
02:27 < jsmith> s/at the/on the/
02:27 < jjmcd> I thouhgt I saw something on l10n
02:27 < rudi> stickster
02:27  * stickster is busier than a one-legged man in a butt-kickin' contest and doesn't recall
02:28 < rudi> Ooops - I see you were commenting on the last topic, NM
02:28 < rudi> Install Guide is in translation - Italian now nearly complete
02:29 < jjmcd> rudi, thanks for helping Claudia
02:29 < rudi> Whole stack of changes and revisions to make after release :)
02:29 < stickster> Sparks: I don't see it on fedora-trans-list, could you send something out?
02:29 < rudi> jjmcd - NP. I like to lie in wait for new translators ;)
02:29 < Sparks> stickster: yeah, I will
02:29 < stickster> disco
02:30  * stickster notes that the top part is only (barely, arguably) funny in English and 
          translators are free to come up with their own material.
02:30 < Sparks> rudi and ke4qqq: Can we get the final draft of HTML and PDFs up on docs.fp.o no later 
                than Sunday?
02:30 < rudi> Sparks - NP
02:31 < rudi> Already good to go.
02:31 < Sparks> rudi: Cool.  When you figure out where the PDF is going please let Admin know so they 
                can add it to the cache list.
02:31 < Sparks> rudi: Excellent.
02:31 < rudi> NP
02:31 < Sparks> Okay, anything else for the Installation Guide?
02:32 < rudi> Nope :)
02:32 < stickster> Thank you for working on that, guys
02:33 < Sparks> Okay...  Now I need to bring up a topic that...  well, is a little scary.
02:33 < Sparks> If you are sensitive to that kind of stuff, you should look away.
02:33 -!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Project - Fedora 12...  Only 152 days 
          to GA...  <-- Sparks
02:33 < Sparks> Yes...  Only 152 days until Fedora 12 is released.
02:33 < Sparks> and yes, we need to be looking at this now.
02:34  * jjmcd thought he cold wait until FUDcon to kick off F12 RN's
02:34 < stickster> Yay F12! Last key on the keyboard!
02:34 < Sparks> jjmcd: Actually the RNs for F12 are already started!
02:34 -!- mdomsch [n=mdomsch cpe-70-124-62-55 austin res rr com] has joined #fedora-meeting
02:34 < jjmcd> Yeah I saw that
02:34 < Sparks> stickster: What happens with F13?  Are we skipping it for superstitious reasons?
02:35 < stickster> Nope, it's going to be named either "Keating" or "Eamon"
02:35 < rudi> Sparks - the USAF did :)
02:35 < stickster> Wait, that might not work.
02:35 < jjmcd> That will certainly be cornfusing on IRC
02:35 < stickster> Oops, I forgot about the whole voting thing :-)
02:35 < Sparks> stickster: Oh we can make that happen.
02:35 < rudi> How about F13 Stealth :)
02:36 < stickster> When f13's IRC starts buzzing him 24/7 I'm going to laugh, and laugh...
02:36 < Sparks> Oh that is good...
02:36 < Sparks> Yeah, he's going to have to change
02:36 < zoglesby> Sparks: what would you like to mention about this? Or just trying to wake us up and 
                  get ready?
02:36 < stickster> I remember when he was a different nick, we'll see if he goes back to it. More 
                   deponent sayeth not.
02:36 < jjmcd> I figured maybe that was his retirement release
02:37 < Sparks> So here's the real scary part...
02:37 < Sparks> http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-12/f-12-summary-tasks.html
02:37 < Sparks> And here are things I want to work on...
02:37 < Sparks> Docs_decisions_for_F12 <-- we'll be working on this during FAD and we'll have answers 
02:38 < Sparks> The Release Notes will be done in Publican
02:38 < stickster> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_decisions_for_F12
02:38 < jjmcd> uitstekend!
02:38 < Sparks> as well as all the guides...
02:38 < Sparks> Okay, you can stop laughing now... I know we've said that every release for the past 
                few... but I'm serious now... kinda
02:38 -!- collier_s [n=collier_ cpe-70-112-140-13 austin res rr com] has joined #fedora-meeting
02:39 < Sparks> Release Notes will be done early and will be available by Oct 15 (not including 
                zero-day)  <-- this one is for jjmcd
02:39 < jjmcd> With no alpha, are beta rn's going to be in n languages
02:39 < Sparks> We are going to have to get this stuff squared away.  We got "lucky" by F11 being 
02:40  * stickster thinks it's vital that the team center on one toolset.
02:40 < Sparks> And not just us...  folks were still providing changes.
02:40 < Sparks> not good
02:40 < Sparks> stickster: yes!
02:40 < Sparks> There will be no zero-day changes
02:40 < Sparks> Okay...  maybe this is wishful thinking...
02:41 < Sparks> but we had way too many changes that seemed to trickle in
02:41 < jjmcd> And I think we are just about there.  Didn't someone have the f-d-u stuff ported, just 
               waiting to push?
02:41 < Sparks> we need to get folks on the ball with this.  Cattle prod or something.
02:41 < zoglesby> jjmcd: I think so
02:41 < jjmcd> Sparks, well, having ticklers on the schedule for notes to the lists will help
02:41 < zoglesby> Rlandmann did them
02:41 < Sparks> yes... and that will be something I'm going to talk about in a few minutes.
02:41 < jjmcd> That figures - that guy don't sleep
02:41 < Sparks> Translation issues must be taken into consideration
02:42 < Sparks> We had complaints from the translation teams and I understand their frustration.  We 
                need to work with them on how to not make things harder for them.
02:42 -!- Nirmal [n=npathak nat/redhat-in/x-be1f7bcbcd369df9] has quit ["Leaving"]
02:42 < jjmcd> Sparks, I think we need to be a lot more proactive on communicating to 
02:43 < jjmcd> as well as restructuring rn's
02:43 -!- neverho0d [n=psv 62 68 142 34] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
02:43 < Sparks> And finally... All guides, other than Installation Guide, should be in Publican and 
                be pushed to docs.fp.o in HTML and PDF formats and should be packaged.
02:43 < zoglesby> this is all stuff thats going to be hammered out at FAD right?
02:44 < stickster> jjmcd: +1.
02:44 < Sparks> jjmcd: Yes!
02:44 < stickster> A lot of it is just sending periodic emails, a few times a week, and anytime you 
                   want to change something.
02:44 < stickster> (during the freeze, that is)
02:44 < stickster> And more, it really should be soliciting opinions and getting +/-1 from the L10n 
02:45 < Sparks> stickster: And thank them a lot!  They are doing a tough job.
02:45 < stickster> no kidding
02:45 < stickster> I don't know how they do it. Seriously.
02:45 < jjmcd> zoglesby, I am expecting you guys to work hard rather than spending all your time 
               eating fried chicken and greens
02:45 < stickster> mmmffwha-huh?
02:45  * jjmcd won't be at SELF :-(
02:45 < Sparks> fried chicken???  Where?
02:45 < stickster> If there is not some <expletive> good fried chicken in my belly on Sunday I will 
                   be an unhappy camper.
02:46 < stickster> Or BBQ.
02:46 < zoglesby> jjmcd: I will not be there, to much money to fly from spain
02:46 < stickster> I can be flexible.
02:46 < Sparks> stickster: You can't get good BBQ over there...
02:46 < Sparks> you have to go east of I-95 in NC
02:46 < jjmcd> I was looking forward to ke4qqq's en-SC.po tho
02:46  * Sparks is hoping to stop by Gaffney, though.
02:47 < stickster> jjmcd: heh
02:47 < stickster> OK -- back to Sparks' last comment about packaging
02:47 < stickster> I like the idea of dropping the whole yelp/OMF thing and going with simple, 
                   installable HTML that appears as a menu entry
02:48 < stickster> But we can hash this out at SELF I guess :-)
02:48 < rudi> +1 for HTML; which will be more KDE-friendly too
02:48 < jjmcd> I like the UI for yelp, the html is kind of a secret, altho a menu would help
02:48 < rudi> (or KDE-friendly at all, in fact ;)
02:49 < Sparks> +1
02:49  * jjmcd hadn't considered KDE
02:49 < jjmcd> od XFCE
02:49 < stickster> rudi: Interestingly, I had a special KDE khelpcenter installation handled in 
                   fedora-doc-utils (originally docs-common)
02:49 < jjmcd> s/od/or
02:49 < rudi> jjmcd - nobody ever does :(
02:49 < stickster> But I couldn't get anyone to help me make sure I was Doing It Right
02:49 < rudi> No dirty GNOME on my machines! :)
02:49 < stickster>  /KICKBAN rudi
02:50 < stickster> You'll have to forgive him, he lives in the upside down part of the world
02:50 < rudi> lolz
02:50  * stickster apologetically lets Sparks get on with it
02:51 < Sparks> No... I did that for one reason... spark discussion!
02:51 < zoglesby> stickster: you are mighty off topic today...
02:51 < jjmcd> Do we want to package pdf?  And why not pdf instead of xml?
02:51 < jjmcd> errr html
02:51 < zoglesby> I think the pdf looks better
02:51 < Sparks> pdf is great for portable...  html is better for searching via google or such
02:52 < Sparks> So I'd rather have... both!
02:52 < stickster> HTML is also more searchable from a variety of indexing utilities the person may 
                   be using
02:52 < stickster> Two copies seems wasteful to me.
02:52 < jjmcd> I guess they should be packaged separately
02:52 < zoglesby> stickster: good point I don't use indexing tools
02:52 < stickster> Nothing wrong with that
02:53  * stickster points to diveintopython-* RPMs as examples
02:54 < jjmcd> Still, 1428 seems like a lot of rpms
02:54 < Sparks> Well... just note that we aren't going to have much down time for the F12 release.
02:54 -!- Netsplit bartol.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: ivazquez, davej, so_solid_moo
02:54 < stickster> jjmcd: wha-huh?
02:54 < jjmcd> 17 docs * 42 langs * 2 formats
02:54 < stickster> Ugh.
02:54 -!- Netsplit over, joins: ivazquez, so_solid_moo, davej
02:54 < Sparks> but we can continue this conversation on F12 in coming weeks
02:55 < Sparks> Wow...  That's a lot of packages
02:55 < stickster> jjmcd: I could see packaging all langs together
02:55 < Sparks> should we have them approved separately?
02:55 < stickster> *choke*
02:55 < jjmcd> Docs needs to grow some packagers
02:56 < zoglesby> I am slowly learning
02:56 < stickster> There is a special RPM variable that lets you drop locales; if you guys got with 
                   the RPM developers you might be able to work something out the same way with 
                   documentation RPMs.
02:56 < Sparks> Yeah, I think we are going to work on that @ Clemson
02:56 < zoglesby> but its all been haskeel stuff
02:56 < rudi> packaging all langs together would make for some big packages :) IIRC, over 100MB for 
              the Install Guide
02:56 < stickster> You guys know that /usr/share/locale has the translated messages for everything 
                   you install, right?
02:57 < stickster> There are ways to silently drop out all the locales except your current one when 
                   you install a RPM package
02:57 < stickster> Cuts down on disk space when it's tight.
02:57 < stickster> Actually, the more I think about it....
02:58 < stickster> I think that we ought to concentrate on establishing a presence where people can 
                   manually install the documentation RPM they want.
02:58 < stickster> PackageKit makes it drop-dead easy point-and-click.
02:58 < jjmcd> exactly
02:58 < stickster> We do *not* want to put 1428 more RPMs in Fedora.
02:58 < stickster> That's just silly.
02:58 -!- spoleeba [n=one fedora/Jef] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
02:58 < stickster> As always, this is just my $0.02
02:59 < stickster> I would think that we should put real muscle during the next 30 days after release 
                   into getting Zikula off the ground.
02:59 -!- neverho0d [n=psv 62 68 142 31] has joined #fedora-meeting
02:59 < Sparks> Yes!
02:59 < stickster> And one of the purposes that could serve would be to house the new docs.fp.o
02:59 < stickster> Including "pretty-fied" access to the new docs RPMs.
03:00 < stickster> There are a number of other things people want out of the Zikula CMS
03:00 < jjmcd> That would be way cool
03:00 < stickster> But none of it's going to happen unless we make it happen.
03:00 < stickster> Our current web publishing sucks rocks.
03:00 < jjmcd> I didn't say that
03:00 < stickster> haha
03:01 < stickster> It was "good enough" (for some value thereof) for Fedora Core 3, but this 
                   community has come a *long* way since then.
03:01 < stickster> We've got to have something that is easier to run, easier to administer, and 
                   easier to understand.
03:01 < zoglesby> are we still wating on packages or testing?
03:02 < Sparks> I think some parts are still waiting to be packaged
03:02 < stickster> ke4qqq: Any insight here?
03:02 < stickster> Can we make it a point *before* SELF to establish what's left to be done, and try 
                   and do as much as possible of it there, after the decision tasks?
03:03 -!- jwb__ [n=jwboyer 24-247-191-219 dhcp aldl mi charter com] has joined #fedora-meeting
03:03 < Sparks> Yeah, I'll get with ke4qqq and get a list
03:03 -!- jwb [n=jwboyer fedora/jwb] has quit [Nick collision from services.]
03:04 -!- jwb__ is now known as jwb
03:04 < Sparks> Okay, anything else on these topics?
03:04  * stickster is really hot to get *something* off the ground so we can get to work on this
03:04 < zoglesby> indeed
03:05 < stickster> I installed it on my local box and tried it out, it was pretty easy to run and I 
                   was thoroughly impressed.
03:05 < Sparks> Okay, let's move on to the last few topics.
03:05 -!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Project - Bugzilla Component Changes
03:05 < Sparks> I sent an email out to the list earlier today.
03:06 < Sparks> It contains a list of all the components of Docs in BZ
03:06 < jjmcd> wits a lot of docs which would be really cool to have
03:06 < Sparks> At next week's meeting we'll figure out which ones to dump.
03:06 -!- mchua [n=mchua rrcs-208-105-78-114 nyc biz rr com] has joined #fedora-meeting
03:06 < jjmcd> Sparks, I smell an opportunity
03:06 < Sparks> jjmcd: Yes and this is a good time to pull those out, dust them off, and get some of 
                our new members involved.
03:07 < jjmcd> exactly
03:07  * mchua apologizes for tardiness
03:07 < stickster> mchua!!!!1!!
03:07 < zoglesby> what bug do you speak of?
03:07 < jjmcd> It can be pretty low pressure but with a lot of flexibility
03:07 < Sparks> zoglesby: Not a bug... the components that break out the docs on BZ
03:08 < zoglesby> I think i found the email
03:08 < jjmcd> BZ = military speak for Bugzilla, but you knew that
03:08  * zoglesby looks at my pants
03:08 < zoglesby> still in the military...
03:08 < jjmcd> AF might not talk the same as the Navy tho
03:09 < Sparks> zoglesby: I didn't realize the AF was still considered a military group.
03:09 < zoglesby> nope I don't go to the head
03:09 < zoglesby> I am not going to defend them...
03:10 < Sparks> okay, I'm not harrassing my AF buddies now
03:10 < jjmcd> Why do I get the feeling that zoglesby ain't gonna be a lifer
03:10 < Sparks> SO, who NEEDS/WANTS a BZ component for their project?
03:10 < zoglesby> I do
03:10 -!- cyberpea1 [n=james fedora/cyberpear] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
03:10 < zoglesby> I have been working on readme-burning-isos to make it foss only
03:11  * Sparks thought that was already in BZ
03:11 < jjmcd> I think there is a component for that
03:11 < Sparks> zoglesby: I can assign it to you.
03:12 < rudi> zoglesby - when you're done with those, can you shoot me the updated verson so I can 
              incorporate it into my Publicanized version of the doc?
03:12 < stickster> zoglesby: Hang on, did you mean you're *removing* instructions for how people can 
                   use their existing proprietary software to try, and switch to, Fedora?
03:12 < rudi> (Heh... or not...)
03:12 < zoglesby> nero and such are not parts of windows
03:12 < jjmcd> stickster, I think a lot of what was there was old stuff
03:13 < zoglesby> and you cant include every application out there
03:13 < stickster> zoglesby: You're absolutely right, but Nero is also shipped with a *ton* of 
                   hardware by default
03:13 -!- cyberpear [n=james fedora/cyberpear] has joined #fedora-meeting
03:13 -!- asgeirf_ [n=asgeirf 124-171-209-152 dyn iinet net au] has quit [Remote closed the 
03:13 < stickster> zoglesby: Can you include a single section for "Other software," where you try to 
                   make instructions that are generic enough to work for most other apps that people 
                   can't get for free?
03:14 < stickster> Many people will have pre-installed software from OEMs and we don't want to leave 
                   them out in the cold
03:14 < zoglesby> we talked about this before in #docs but we can talk about it again there after this
03:14 < rudi> True - it's rare to see a Windows box out there *without* Nero or Sonic on it...
03:14 < jjmcd> Of course, with newer versions of Windows you don't need that stuff anymore, and I'm 
               not so sure I've seen it with any recent drives
03:14 < stickster> ok, we don't need to derail here
03:14  * stickster &
03:14 < stickster> jjmcd: good point
03:14  * stickster is happy as long as we can cover whatever comes free with other big-market-share OS
03:15 < Sparks> zoglesby: Would you like tickets for that to go to you?
03:15 < stickster> and some appropriate free aps
03:15 < stickster> *apps
03:15 < zoglesby> indeed
03:15 < zoglesby> to both of you...
03:15 < Sparks> Okay...
03:16 < Sparks> zoglesby: Do you have an editor?
03:16 -!- kulll [n=kulll 203 82 79 101] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
03:16 < zoglesby> an editor? like emacs? or a person?
03:17 < Sparks> a person
03:17 < Sparks> If not... I'll put myself as QA
03:17 < zoglesby> not that I know of
03:17 < Sparks> ok
03:17 < stickster> yay Emacs!
03:17 < Sparks> We haven't done that in a while.
03:18  * Sparks is proud of stickster for standing up for Emacs on FLOSS Weekly
03:18 < Sparks> :)
03:18 < zoglesby> indeed again
03:18 < zoglesby> emacs comes up a lot of that show
03:18 < Sparks> okay... anything else on the BZ stuff?
03:19 -!- asgeirf_ [n=asgeirf 124-171-209-152 dyn iinet net au] has joined #fedora-meeting
03:19 -!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Project - Calendar
03:19 < Sparks> Okay...  I want a calendar.
03:19 < zoglesby> me to
03:20 < Sparks> I'm thinking about just posting a ical file, or something like that, to docs.fp.o and 
                giving everyone read access.
03:20 < Sparks> Would that be helpful?
03:20 < Sparks> It would be the Docs calendar... helpful reminders of deadlines, meetings, events, 
03:20 < zoglesby> works for me
03:21 < zoglesby> but ideally something with controlled write access would be nice
03:21 < jjmcd> Why not in git so anyone can maintain it
03:21 < stickster> eventually to be subsumed by Zikula also :-)
03:21 < Sparks> jjmcd: We could.  I'm trying to come up with a solution
03:21 < Sparks> Zikula has a calendaring function...
03:22 < jjmcd> If Zikula is doing it for us, then maybe a wiki page in the interim
03:22 < Sparks> jjmcd: The only problem with a wiki page is that it won't incorporate into a calendar 
                I automatically stare at daily
03:23  * Sparks thinks this would be a similar problem
03:23 < Sparks> I mean, there are already release calendars out there that I forget to look at.
03:23 < stickster> don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
03:23 < stickster> An iCal on a site is a start
03:23 < stickster> and can probably be imported to Zikula later
03:24 < Sparks> Any other ideas?
03:24 < zoglesby> buy google and open source google apps?
03:25 < stickster> heh
03:25 < jjmcd> google calendar sucks swanp water
03:25 < Sparks> Whose to say it isn't open source...  has anyone asked?
03:25 < stickster> It's not
03:25  * Sparks likes google calendar
03:25 < stickster> The API is open, that's it.
03:25 < Sparks> Okay...  so I'm going to work on an iCal and attempt to figure out the best way of 
                doing it
03:26 -!- mchua_ [n=mchua nat/redhat/x-9303b86521641bc4] has joined #fedora-meeting
03:26 -!- Sonar_Guy [n=Who fedora/sonarguy] has quit ["Leaving"]
03:26 < Sparks> Okay, moving on...
03:26 -!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Project - New Guide - Where's the 
03:26 -!- mchua [n=mchua rrcs-208-105-78-114 nyc biz rr com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection 
          timed out)]
03:27 < Sparks> To help people get to our source files I want to build a small guide that helps point 
                people to where they can obtain source files.
03:28 -!- mchua_ is now known as mchua
03:28 < Sparks> It's on the wiki right now.  If anyone would like to adopt this and move it into 
                Publican please let me knwo.
03:28 < Sparks> It would be an excellent project for a new member
03:28  * stickster wonders if Publican may not be necessary for this one, since the need for formal 
          publication is probably pretty low
03:29 < Sparks> stickster: My want was to get it on docs.fp.o
03:29 < zoglesby> keep it on the wiki?
03:29 < stickster> Yes
03:29 < Sparks> But it could be kept on the wiki...  it's just easier to get buried there
03:29 < stickster> Because the wiki is more or less the center for development efforts
03:29 < Sparks> and forgotten
03:29 < stickster> We could solve that with clever linking though :-)
03:30 < stickster> Essentially, no document on the wiki is important unless you do that.
03:30 < stickster> What makes wiki documents *not* forgotten is that you refer to it often :-)
03:30 -!- Sonar_Guy [n=Who fedora/sonarguy] has joined #fedora-meeting
03:30  * stickster notes that there is a landing target he just found on the wiki: 
03:30 < stickster> I'd *totally* link to this new "Get the Source, Luke" page from there.
03:31 < Sparks> Cool
03:31 < stickster> that [[Development]] page is also linked from here:
03:31 < stickster> http://redhat.com/developers/
03:31 < Sparks> I'm good with keeping it on the wiki as long as it stays visable
03:32 < stickster> I think if you publicize its existence, you won't have any problems with that ;-)
03:32 < Sparks> Cool
03:32 < stickster> Plenty of people will start linking to it, blogging, etc.
03:32 < Sparks> Any questions or comments?
03:32 < stickster> It's so obvious, it's a wonder we don't have it yet!
03:32 < zoglesby> and if we are wrong we move it later
03:32 < stickster> Sure, nothing's written in stone in the end.
03:33 < stickster> I just think moving things to Publican makes them less likely to be contributed to 
                   by people outside this group
03:33 < Sparks> stickster: yeah, it just hit me the other day...  It's almost like you were speaking 
                to me on a subconscious level
03:33 < stickster> That's OK for formal docs that need intense scrutiny
03:33 < Sparks> Okay, let's keep it on the wiki
03:33 < Sparks> and do some linking
03:34 < zoglesby> it would be helpful for other to add stuff, we are bound to forget someones project
03:34  * Sparks makes a note to blog about it
03:35 -!- jsmith is now known as jsmith-dinner
03:36 < Sparks> anything else on this?
03:36 < Sparks> okay... last thing
03:36 -!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Project - Go over task table
03:37 < Sparks> I want to make this task table more comprehensive and complete.
03:37 < Sparks> right now we have task lists and tables all over the place and they aren't being 
03:37 < Sparks> Please take a look at the table and update it if you have something on there.
03:37 -!- cyberpear [n=james fedora/cyberpear] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
03:38 < Sparks> Anyone have any questions?
03:38 -!- comraderaikov [n=sseierse pool-173-64-93-105 bltmmd fios verizon net] has joined 
03:39 < Sparks> Okay, does anyone have anything else about anything?
03:39 < stickster> heh
03:39 < mchua> Sparks: I'm also trying (now that I've read through a BZ tutorial) the "what if we 
               used the BZ project-tracking component" experiment
03:40 < mchua> on the theory that it may be easier to keep up with one bz instance than with N 
               separate wiki tables (either that or I'll just form the habit of actually using 
03:40 < Sparks> That's an idea
03:40 < mchua> and was curious if anyone had any thoughts on the notion (do people not like keeping 
               tasks in bz? have wikitables worked really, really well before?)
03:41 < Sparks> Maybe if we turned "nag" on in BZ it would be better.
03:42 < mchua> what would that do? autoemail you when tickets update?
03:43 < Sparks> I think it emails you weekly with tasks that you have open
03:43 < mchua> Ooh. Handy.
03:43 < Sparks> Yeah
03:44  * stickster wonders who gets lined up against the wall and shot first when every Red Hat 
          engineer sees 328 new BZ emails every Monday morning
03:44 < stickster> Thankfully, I'm remote. But there are a lot of people in the Westford office that 
                   I like, and would miss!
03:44 < Sparks> stickster: I think it's a summary if I remember correctly
03:44 < stickster> o_O
03:45 < stickster> Can such a feature be opt-in?
03:45 < Sparks> I think you get a single email, weekly, with a list of your current tickets
03:45 < Sparks> I don't remember
03:46 < stickster> mchua: I'm in favor of simplify
03:46 < stickster> See right there? I could have typed "simplicity" but "simplify" was SHORTER.
03:46 < zoglesby> lol
03:47 < stickster> Historically we had a tough time getting Docs people to dig BZ
03:47 < stickster> But this is a very different Docs group these days.
03:47 < ricky> If you're thinking bugzilla for task tracking, have you looked at trac?
03:47 < stickster> ricky: I think the idea was that if other people are already filing docs bugs in 
                   BZ, what about tracking there too.
03:47 < zoglesby> we have a trac instance for every doc on fh.o
03:48 < stickster> Yeah, and that could be disabled and people diverted to BZ if we like
03:48 < ricky> Ah.  Is the trac instance usually linked from the doc?
03:48 < stickster> Not yet
03:49  * mchua notes that based on http://www.bugzilla.org/docs/2.20/html/whining.html and 
          http://www.bugzilla.org/docs/tip/en/html/groups.html, it seems like people can opt-in to bz 
          whining. attempting now.
03:50 -!- kulll [n=kulll 203 82 91 101] has joined #fedora-meeting
03:50 < Sparks> mchua: Let's finish this conversation over in #fedora-docs
03:50  * mchua nods
03:50 < Sparks> Okay, anything else before we spill over into hour three?
03:51 < Sparks> 5
03:51 < Sparks> 4
03:51 < Sparks> 3
03:51 < Sparks> 2
03:51 < Sparks> 1
03:51 < Sparks> Thanks everyone for coming!
03:51 < Sparks> </meeting>

Zach Oglesby
GPG Key: 1378F79F

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