I did some clean-up of joins/leaves, otherwise pristine as usual. 17:08 < quaid> <meeting> 17:09 < quaid> glezos: test wiki, I didn't get clear from paulobanon if he wanted us to abuse it yet, esp. since we have read-only I guess 17:10 < glezos> quaid, just asking to see the official logo stickster suggested. 17:10 < stickster> So, notice to all who have URL, keep it to yourselves 17:10 * stickster let cat out of bag 17:13 < BobJensen> Hi Guys 17:13 < BobJensen> Sorry I'm late 17:13 < quaid> no worries 17:13 < quaid> I had to start the feast 17:14 < BobJensen> K 17:14 < stickster> OK then 17:15 < stickster> Who is owning the release notes? And will there in fact be an update? 17:15 < BobJensen> I will not be here next week as per my scheduled conflict 17:15 < stickster> Is there anything *to* update? New translations? 17:15 < quaid> and 17:15 < quaid> I haven't dug through i18n to see if there are finished translations 17:16 < quaid> but several major languages are incomplete 17:16 < quaid> and I think that sucks 17:16 < quaid> (in a generic suckage way) 17:16 < stickster> +1 17:16 < BobJensen> stickster: I was just looking at that over the holiday weekend, I think we should target an update for a couple weeks away, there are some bug items and other things I think we could add and address 17:17 < BobJensen> the i586/i686 bug is one 17:17 < |DrJef|> hey i have a question, where would i start looking for current state of localization for Alaskan native languages? Specifically Yup'ik and Inupiaq 17:17 < stickster> That bug's growing whiskers 17:18 < stickster> Now that we've had almost 500K downloads or whatever 17:18 < glezos> |DrJef|, http://i18n.redhat.com/cgi-bin/i18n-status 17:18 < quaid> |DrJef|: http://i18n.redhat.com 17:18 < quaid> yeah, there 17:18 < BobJensen> stickster: it is relevent for those that install from the released ISOs 17:18 < stickster> Yeah, very much so 17:18 < stickster> So yes, a couple of weeks then 17:19 < stickster> Can we set a target date of 12/12? 17:19 < |DrJef|> mucho gracias 17:19 < BobJensen> On that same bug I am going to b doing some testing for nasrat this week to see if the bug is fixes 17:19 < BobJensen> fixed 17:19 < stickster> Yeah, I was under the impression there was an anaconda update that addressed it 17:19 * quaid looks at calendar 17:20 < quaid> we can do 12/12 if we can make it clear that we are open for more translations and be sure we can get PO back out 17:20 < quaid> stickster: you have those perms now? 17:20 < |DrJef|> i see Inupiaq listed by not Yup'ik 17:20 < stickster> Uhm... I think so 17:20 < quaid> ok, let's proceed then 17:21 < quaid> I'll send email right now to f-trans-l saying we are going to do a package update for updated/completed translations 17:21 < quaid> 12/10 due date for getting it all done 17:21 < |DrJef|> quaid, not to get in the way of what you are working on... but what do you think the chances are of getting Google SoC project to start a translation for Inupiaq? 17:21 < stickster> quaid: Maybe hold off until the beat update is done 17:21 < BobJensen> can we target the 11th going to trans and publish on the 19th? 17:21 < stickster> quaid: Isn't there material to add on the wiki and then convert? 17:22 < quaid> |DrJef|: probably need an Inupiaq translator person(s) to propose it 17:22 < |DrJef|> quaid, i could probably line up someone at the University who would be willing to do the work 17:22 < stickster> I think we want to try for 10 days to trans 17:22 < |DrJef|> quaid, there are students who study native languages as degree minors 17:22 < quaid> |DrJef|: I'm working with some others on proposing a Summer of Content, with content focused on supporting FLOSS project adoption 17:22 < BobJensen> stickster: true 17:22 < stickster> I think that was our goal last time though this process 17:22 < quaid> |DrJef|: sounds like a good fit 17:23 < |DrJef|> quaid, if i found a student looking for summer work to start such a translation project, could Fedora be the mentoring entity? 17:23 < quaid> our goal was on updating content, then getting all trans up to date? 17:23 < quaid> |DrJef|: interesting idea, as we are a conduit to all the upstreams for translation, right? 17:23 < BobJensen> stickster: How about to trans on the 12th and publish the 22nd or the weekend? 17:23 < |DrJef|> quaid, i might also see if OLPC could be a mentoring entity, since im specifically interested in laying the groundwork for OLPC deployment in AK 17:23 < quaid> or do translators go directly through e.g. GNOME? 17:23 < |DrJef|> quaid, i dont know whats best 17:23 < stickster> BobJensen: I think pushing that close to the holidays is a Really Bad Idea 17:24 < BobJensen> Oh shoot you are right 17:24 < stickster> BobJensen: Does your schedule preclude getting the beats updated by, say, this weekend? 17:24 < |DrJef|> quaid, i'm just trying to act as a facilitator in my new...country 17:24 < BobJensen> stickster: sadly yes 17:24 < BobJensen> stickster: I can do Friday the 8th 17:24 < quaid> |DrJef|: word ... 17:25 < stickster> OK, I think that may work out better 17:25 < |DrJef|> quaid, SoC is pretty low hanging fruit for funding 17:25 < quaid> glezos: does GNOME trans come down from GNOME? do we have a way to push trans of GNOME from Fedora into GNOME? 17:25 < BobJensen> that will give trans a full work week and two weekends 17:25 < stickster> I can get the stuff out to trans on the 9th, and then we ask for return by the 19th, I'll publish ASAP 17:25 < quaid> |DrJef|: I do think translations fit in the new Summer of Content idea, but I don't know where that is going to go 17:25 < stickster> s/on the 9th/by the 9th/ 17:25 < quaid> ok, more time for trans is key 17:26 < stickster> 10 days now 17:26 < BobJensen> stickster: I would love to be part of the publish process if we can make it happen 17:26 < quaid> we're coming from no where, so almost 2x the normal would be good 17:26 < glezos> quaid, I didn't understand the Q, sorry. 17:26 < stickster> BobJensen: Oops, you will be... I won't be available the 19th 17:26 < glezos> quaid, translation of GNOME is done from its own CVS, it's own team. 17:26 < quaid> glezos: Fedora is a downstream user of translations that come from e.g. GNOME, KDE, etc. right? 17:26 * stickster checks his schedule again 17:26 < glezos> quaid, yes, AFAIK 17:26 < |DrJef|> quaid, there are like dozen of languages up here, Yu'pik isnt even listed in the translation list of possible translation... 17:27 < quaid> glezos: do you know if we have a way to push translations back upstream from within Fedora? Or do translators who want to trans e.g. GNOME go to gnome.org? 17:27 < stickster> quaid: latter is the way 17:27 < glezos> quaid, the second. 17:27 < BobJensen> stickster: if we can work it out so i can work with you to be a part of the publish process when ever we have to do it before christmas I am fine with 17:27 < stickster> glezos: jinx :-) 17:27 < quaid> |DrJef|: that seems like the major barrier is that a lot of the trans is upstream 17:28 < stickster> BobJensen: The key is that you need access to write to the web module 17:28 < BobJensen> stickster: IIRC I have that 17:28 < stickster> BobJensen: bitchin 17:28 < stickster> Then you will find it very simple 17:28 < glezos> quaid, Ubuntu tries to do some downstream translations through Rosetta.. but it's very very bad and translators hate it 17:28 < quaid> |DrJef|: we could certainly mentor for Fedora needs; there was also a multi-mentor proposal to make it easier to cross-connect students into multiple projects. 17:28 < BobJensen> stickster: unless things have changed 17:28 < stickster> BobJensen: At worst you may have to write a few lines of HTML to update "index" pages with manually-created tables 17:29 < stickster> the rest of it is a very easy process 17:29 < BobJensen> stickster: I know I pushed to the web for FC5's release and did *something* wrong but I did have the needed access 17:29 < quaid> also package update 17:29 < |DrJef|> quaid, obviously gnome is the next logical step.... just getting a translation for one of the bigger languages up here started that impacts OLPC would be good enough i would think 17:29 < stickster> quaid: Yup 17:29 < BobJensen> stickster: our "fedora-release-notes" package should also be updated 17:30 < stickster> That's easy, I'll let f13 know once the translations are back in 17:30 < BobJensen> OK 17:30 < quaid> |DrJef|: right, if OLPC translation is the point, they might be a better mentor, as they are connected to all their own key projects 17:30 < stickster> quaid + BobJensen jinx 17:30 < BobJensen> stickster: yup 17:30 < quaid> where I wouldn' tknow what to do for e.g. AbiWord :) 17:30 < glezos> stickster, any progress on separating fedora-release-notes and fedora-browser-splash po files? 17:30 * stickster reminds quaid and BobJensen about the tagging thing 17:31 < quaid> we need to branch? 17:31 < stickster> XML has to be retagged to match original release to prevent translator pain 17:31 < quaid> um 17:31 < stickster> Thanks wiki! 17:31 < quaid> can we just add the changes in by hand? 17:31 < |DrJef|> quaid, indeed, if I'm clever enough I can sucker native language translators into localization workshop sessions hosted by the University LUG 17:31 < quaid> v. regenerating the XML? 17:31 < stickster> Absosmurfly 17:31 < quaid> ok, let's do that 17:31 < glezos> |DrJef|, are you sure this is the best time to talk about this? :) 17:31 < quaid> tasks then are: 17:31 < stickster> In fact, I think we tagged pages in the wiki for release, so it should be easy to diff the changes right there 17:31 < |DrJef|> glezos, no its not.... 17:32 < quaid> BobJensen: can you find all the content that has changed in the Wiki so we can fix it in the XML? 17:32 < |DrJef|> glezos, ill get out of your way now 17:32 < quaid> plus any new stuff we need to add 17:32 < BobJensen> quaid: I think so 17:32 < quaid> BobJensen: then I can help convert that into XML manually, to minimize the XML diff for translators 17:33 < quaid> and we hand that off to stickster for packaging 17:33 < quaid> and BobJensen and I can work out the Web publish on f.r.c 17:33 < quaid> ok? 17:33 < BobJensen> quaid: sure 17:34 < stickster> +1 17:34 < glezos> |DrJef|, chill. Just suggesting (with a smile) to talk about it in a few minutes.. 17:35 < glezos> quaid, if I can help with the publish, let me know 17:35 < stickster> Just until </end-mtg> 17:37 < stickster> And everything goes silent... :-D 17:37 < glezos> stickster, did you miss my Q about the separation of po files or was that on purpose? :D 17:38 < BobJensen> OK between now and the 6th I will work on the Wiki content, work with quaid to get the xml to stickster by the 8th for him to send to trans, back from trans the 18th and we wrap it up 17:38 < stickster> ? 17:38 < |DrJef|> glezos, don't worry, i'm not miffed its obvious your getting work done 17:38 < stickster> Oh 17:38 < stickster> sorry! 17:38 < stickster> glezos: The answer is no 17:38 < BobJensen> is that timeline roughly correct? 17:38 < stickster> But I will discuss it with f13 and find out if he minds terribly just using an extra Source in the spec... then we can simply break it out 17:39 < glezos> We need to put that somewhere on the schedule.. The translators really need it. Basically, separate the release-notes from everything else (browser splash, about-fedora, etc) would be a good compromise. 17:40 < quaid> should we do that for this or the next package update? 17:41 < stickster> I don't see how it's such a huge help, since there's only a few dozen strings implicated in the extra two pieces 17:41 < BobJensen> quaid: Do we want to do it mid FC release or target that for the next Fedora release? 17:41 < glezos> quaid, if it's not very difficult, I would suggest to do it asap.. 17:41 < stickster> The vast majority come from the relnotes themselves 17:42 < stickster> glezos: It requires a change in the spec for the RPM, and it's going to be f13's call whether that's too major a change for mid-release 17:42 < glezos> stickster, there were some translators who wanted to translate the about-fedora and splash page but didn't have the resources to translate the relnotes 17:42 < stickster> Ah 17:42 < stickster> Yes, hadn't thought about it the other way 'round 17:42 < BobJensen> Changing our package mid release might get more resistance than doing it for a new release 17:43 < stickster> It really won't be a new package, just the same one now composed from three different sources 17:43 < BobJensen> true 17:43 < glezos> BobJensen, yes but that's why we are doing updates right? To fix things that didn't manage to get on the release.. 17:43 < quaid> if we can't, we can at least let people translate those and tell us, then we can take in the PO for host languages for the about-fedora etc. 17:44 < stickster> s/three/multiple/ 17:44 < BobJensen> stickster: I will be talking to Jesse about pungi this week, I will put a bug in his ear about the sources change if he does not speak up tonight 17:44 < stickster> He's pretty good about keeping up with his buffer, I'd think I'll get a shout back by tomorrow... but fer shur 17:45 < glezos> great 17:45 < BobJensen> yup yup 17:45 < stickster> I think this brings up a good point, mildly related 17:45 < glezos> BTW, we could still do it without changing the SPEC right? By doing a po merge before the packaging? 17:45 < stickster> We need to do a better job of training our new contributors 17:46 < quaid> who, us? 17:46 < stickster> Not that present company isn't awesome... we just need *more* awesomeness 17:46 < stickster> quaid: yup 17:46 < stickster> We still have no firm date on Plone stuff 17:46 < quaid> NewWriters is overly long, etc., but how can we do otherwise? 17:46 < stickster> So let's stop dragging feet on helping new guys learn DocBook XML + CVS 17:47 < quaid> how do you mean dragging? 17:47 < stickster> Oh, nothing in particular 17:47 < quaid> really it is more a matter of dragging people into it, and can we? 17:47 < quaid> ppl seem to really respond to the wiki 17:47 * stickster is just being tactless after a number of stupid meetings with "no-speak" bosses today 17:47 < quaid> and flinch at XML 17:48 < stickster> That's just because they see wikis everywhere and no one helps people learn XML 17:48 < stickster> I lucked out, I got in right before the wiki hit, so I had people helping me 17:48 < quaid> proposals/ 17:48 < quaid> ? 17:48 < stickster> Otherwise I'd think exactly the same thing 17:48 < quaid> I mean, when we had only the XML as a way to write, we had little help 17:49 < quaid> does this just mean, update doc-guide? 17:49 < BobJensen> IMO we all should have at least a clue about XML and CVS to prevent all of the work being on the shoulders of a few 17:49 < stickster> BobJensen: +1 17:49 < stickster> Otherwise we're a choke point 17:49 < BobJensen> sadly I am in that lacking clue group 17:49 < stickster> Did the gobby session we had before help at all? 17:49 < stickster> Would that work as a continuing series? 17:50 < BobJensen> stickster: I missed that actually 17:50 < stickster> It's in the archive, I sent a log to the list 17:50 < stickster> complete with examples from the editor session 17:50 < stickster> I think a lot of people get into Linux to learn something. 17:50 < stickster> We just have to enable the learning 17:50 < stickster> Without downing the wiki 17:50 < BobJensen> Yes I have that item, seeing t live woudl have been better, I think doing it again or even regualrly might be a bonus 17:50 < quaid> okey 17:51 < quaid> I approve, let's just do some stuff 17:51 < stickster> Yeah 17:51 < quaid> fixing the doc-guide would help a lot 17:51 < stickster> quaid: +5 17:51 * stickster is working on that after this meeting 17:52 < quaid> ok, I put it back on the active schedule 17:52 < quaid> I can pledge time for that, for sure 17:53 * stickster is resolved at next FUDCon to do a hands-on Docs session just about how to mechanically work our tools 17:53 < glezos> best way to recruit people, IMO, is to just give them jobs to do and a mentor to overlook, give a schedule of "deliverables" and poke them. 17:53 < |DrJef|> so when is FUDCon going to be help in Anchorage? 17:54 * stickster will hold special class for Jef :-D jk 17:54 < stickster> When is FUDCon going to be held anywhere, for that matter? 17:54 < stickster> hmm.... 17:55 < BobJensen> stickster: there was talk about Q107 17:56 < quaid> hmm 17:57 < stickster> heh, "Q107" was a hit radio station growing up here in DC 17:57 < BobJensen> LOL 17:57 < stickster> But OK... Maybe Boston again then? 17:58 < BobJensen> stickster: that was one place mentioned 17:58 < stickster> Maybe I'll wrangle a room at the RH Summit for this 17:58 < stickster> I know people in high places nowadays 17:58 < stickster> Matthew owes me for my big suck-up article, dontcha think? 17:58 * stickster looks around nervously at light bulbs 17:58 < stickster> heh heh, just kidding Matthew! he.... *ahurm* 17:59 < BobJensen> stickster: I am told that when the FUDCon happens I will be there 17:59 < stickster> OK, coming up on 60-min. mark... how are we doing? 18:00 < quaid> yep 18:00 < quaid> I'm ready for a light session now 18:00 < BobJensen> I wil have an update on the release notes for you guys for next week's meeting 18:00 < quaid> meeting still open for general discussions, another hour at the end 18:00 < quaid> just to see if anyone (megacoder0 drops by) 18:01 < BobJensen> One of my servers went MIA while we were chatting so i need to look at that 18:01 < BobJensen> BRB 18:03 * stickster goes off to work on doc-guide 18:03 < stickster> Durn, need to change discs too 18:04 < quaid> ok, we're on interim period here :) 18:04 < glezos> already 2am! darn. gnite. 18:14 * quaid takes a break to do some kitchen clean-up 18:51 * stickster idly wonders after calling up yelp for testing the DG, whether the DUG needs to be renamed so as not to conflict with the existing "Desktop User Guide" (provided by GNOME) 18:55 < quaid> hmm 18:56 < quaid> FUG? 19:05 < stickster> Heh 19:05 < stickster> Then it can be fugly 19:13 * quaid does some more movement on the Moin DocBook stuff 19:15 < cdehaan> I've been such a bad contributor lately... is the current setup of editing in MoinMoin and later converting to DocBook still the model for the immediate future? 19:18 * quaid gets out the whip for cdehaan 19:18 < cdehaan> What can I say? Busy semester :) 19:18 < quaid> :D 19:18 < cdehaan> I did get FC6 running quite nicely on my MacBook, though, which is wonderful 19:18 < quaid> cdehaan: check this out for the current and future thinking 19:18 < quaid> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/WorkFlowIdeas 19:19 < quaid> the three-pronged approach section explains things best 19:19 < quaid> mainly, yes 19:19 < quaid> Wiki and XML are the tools 19:19 < quaid> but learning XML is worth doing now :) 19:20 < cdehaan> Good good 19:20 < cdehaan> Is there no good XML-Wiki style interface... such as that all the editing would actually be done in XML, and all files would be in XML, but they could be viewed as they are currently? 19:21 < cdehaan> Obviously MoinMoin wouldn't be the frontend to be doing this, but something similar? 19:22 < cdehaan> My opinion counts for very little, but that seems like the best idea... 19:31 < stickster> cdehaan: That is the "coming one day" version, yes 19:31 < stickster> cdehaan: I was just saying in our meeting that waiting for that to come about doesn't seem to be doing any good 19:32 < stickster> The more people we can get to learn the "real" tools, the more help there will be 19:32 < quaid> +1 19:32 < cdehaan> There's no interface, as of yet, to accomplish that goal? 19:32 < quaid> we are just always working to increase the # of editors 19:32 < quaid> the thing is 19:32 < stickster> Wiki editing is very important and a good thing, but if people are willing and able to learn a new skill, that's better 19:32 < quaid> yes, better than waiting :) 19:32 < stickster> Especially since we have time and willingness to teach 19:33 < quaid> cdehaan: there is no interace yet that can do that in a satisfactory way 19:33 < cdehaan> stickster: To me, DocBook makes more sense... I haven't truly learned it, but writing in terms of chapters, sections, etc. is clearer than abstract headings and icons that you do with MoinMoin 19:33 < quaid> but we can't wait for it to be done, and stickster is right about Just Learning It 19:33 < quaid> it's easy :) 19:33 < stickster> cdehaan: +1 19:34 < cdehaan> And, because I'm anal about these things, the idea of having the stuff in two "places" and in two formats bugs me. 19:35 < cdehaan> So we just need to recruit people with the skills to work on the unsatisfactory solutions to our issue, and make them satisfactory... or start from scratch. 19:36 < stickster> Starting from scratch -1 19:36 < stickster> But +1 on recruiting people who can help craft the new better solution 19:37 < stickster> It all revolves around people with Python+Zope+Plone skills 19:37 < stickster> In the meantime, by working in DocBook we know we can get to any other target 19:38 * stickster goes back to DocBook on DocGuide 19:39 < quaid> cdehaan: one way to get more comfie with the current situation is to think of it this way 19:39 < quaid> some docs have their source in the Wiki (Docs/Beats) and some in CVS/XML 19:39 < quaid> rather that one doc in two places 19:40 < quaid> the goal is to converge, all XML in SCM with multiple editors (Wiki, Emacs, OO.org, etc.0 19:40 < quaid> ok, I'm going to close this meeting up 19:40 < EvilBob> +1 19:40 < quaid> :D 19:40 < quaid> </meeting> -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
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