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Re: Serious reservations about FC2 release on 5/18
- From: Will Backman <whb ceimaine org>
- To: For testers of Fedora Core development releases <fedora-test-list redhat com>
- Subject: Re: Serious reservations about FC2 release on 5/18
- Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 13:18:26 -0400
Taking the bait...
On Mon, 2004-05-17 at 12:59, Gregory G Carter wrote:
> Linux is not ready for the poor souls who expect to throw a disk in and
> press the pretty setup button.
Windows has broad hardware support, and hardware vendors are happy to
provide binary drivers. Linux is doing an increasingly better job of
reverse engineering hardware. More hardware vendors are contributing as
Linux becomes more popular. The trends are looking good, but there is
much work to do.
> It isn't, and it will not be for a couple of YEARS yet. I think your
> expectations are out of line, personally.
We used to expect that people would check the hardware compatibility
list first. Yes, it seems that every year the is an article stating
that "Linux is finally ready for the desktop". Problem is, all kinds of
new technology is coming out at ever increasing rates.
> Linux is not for the IT guy who basically presses buttons, and if it
> doesn't work you call Microsoft. (i.e. Microsoft Administrators)
For many tasks, there are some good and simple interfaces, even
commercial ones, like Plesk. Many people can administer Linux machines
through such interfaces very easily, as long as they stick to certain
> At the moment Linux is for the guy who can make the modifications to the
> Python scripts to properly implement a dual boot MBR with a little C
> code to scan the partition types and resize/reconfig them on the fly.
For many scenarios, this is true, but for many people, this is not the
case. Really, things are really good these days. I'd bet that 95% of
the installs go very well. Problem is, as something becomes larger,
that remaining 5% can get pretty large. That 5% needs to view
themselves as willing contributors to an amazing process of software
> Linux WILL eventually get that far, but not today, tomorrow next week
> next year. We are still in the process of evicting "bill and the gang"
> from the server rooms. Once wereach critical mass, very soon I suspect,
> we will start worrying about the desktop.
I sure hope so.
> Although we are not TOTALLY without compassion. :-) Try looking at the
> knoppix distro on CD if you absolutely want to just run Linux part of
> the time, without fiddling with your XP install. No fuss and no
> muss....knoppix is the way to go for the IT Drones and casual users who
> just want a peak at Linux or see if it supports your hardware.
And many other live CDs. Extra partitions are beyond most home users.
Perhaps when Linux come pre-installed, these issues will go away.
> What is embarrassing to me, personally is that the US is over run with
> IT people who can't do jack if they cannot find the setup button.
Not just the US. Many of us move to other countries. :)
> The entire US IT department landscape is built by people who really do
> not understand the technology they are using, and are simply drones that
> push pretty buttons. If it doesn't have a GUI on it, they label it as
> "unusable" not "mature".
This was by design. Same with people who build cars. Not a terrible
> I would like to propose a different view...that the individuals who are
> making this determination are "unskilled" "overpaid" and should probably
> have their jobs "outsourced".
As with any industry.
> Is it any wonder most of the primary technical contributions to Linux
> distros that address the "desktop issues" do not come from the US
> anyway. (GNOME, KDE...)
Not to mention the kernel starting outside the US.
> I find that sickening, disgusting and well...EXACTLY why most US IT
> departments can't do jack except complain about the whole desktop distro
Must mean that the windows boxes are stable enough that most US IT
people have time to complain. :)
> All of the issues that Fedora has on the desktop will eventually be
> addressed so you IT "drones" can boot Linux into run level init 5 and
> blow 256MB of memory on a stupid GUI just to restart your DNS server
> instead of just typing ./named reload on the command line at init level
> 3 without a gui.
That 256MB of RAM costs less than the 4 MB that was used for the CLI 8
years ago. Still, I agree that a quick command line is a nice thing.
At least with Linux/Unix, you still have a choice.
> If I was you I would go back to using Windows for awhile until we get
> there. But complaining about trivial things when we are in the process
> of "penguinizing" the server rooms of the world is not something you are
> going to get a whole lot of sympathy for.
Maybe we need a fedora-sympathy list. ;)
> Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> >On Mon, 17 May 2004, Sean Estabrooks wrote:
> >>This hardly counts as a major flaw and IMHO Linux distros don't have to
> >>prove themselves to anyone anyway.
> >yes it is, and yes they do. get a grip. given the pitched battle between
> >microsoft and linux at the moment, how many potential converts (many of
> >whom will be running XP) do you think will be impressed with the attitude
> >of, "hey, this is linux, we don't give a crap about your windows stuff."
> >oh, yeah, that'll win piles of new friends.
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