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FLP Meeting 2007-08-21 IRC log



Hi here the Meeting Log from #fedora-meeting 2007/08/21

   —› topic: (glezos) changes topic to (Fedora Localization Project
meeting -- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N/Meetings)
(glezos) <meeting>
(glezos) Hey all, who's here?
(cell) hi glezos
(stavrosg) Stavros Giannouris (el)
• ln- _o/
(Raven46) PiotrDrÄ…g (pl)
(stavrosg) hello evreyone
(runa_b) RunaBhattacharjee (bn_IN)
(rsc) RobertScheck (de) - but not involved into the project itself
(just curious)
(petreu) Peter Reuschlein (de)
(stavrosg) everyone*
     —› topic: (glezos) changes topic to (Fedora Localization Project
meeting -- Agenda: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N/Meetings#agenda)
(glezos) Cool, hey all
(glezos) wazzaaa
(runa_b) hello :)
(Raven46) hi all :)
(petreu) nothn watchn the game havn a bud ...
(glezos) petreu, :)
(glezos) Who'll grab the log for today and send it to the list?
(petreu) hmm i can
(glezos) I've grouped the steps needed at the bottom of the Meetings page
(glezos) petreu, thanks
(glezos) So, recaping from the previous meeting
(glezos) Here's the summary:
http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-trans-list/2007-August/msg00026.html
(glezos) noriko isn't around
(glezos) runa_b and I have worked a bit on the guidelines
(glezos) Here's the link:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N/ResourceMaintainers
(glezos) I think everything was accomplished *except* me sending that
email for outdated translations for TQSG :/
(glezos) Writing a yellow paper on my monitor right now.
     —› topic: (glezos) changes topic to (Fedora Localization Project
meeting -- Agenda: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N/Meetings#agenda
- -- Topic: Handling i18n request issues in case maintainer's response
is not received or not adequate)
(glezos) runa_b, any comments on this?
(runa_b) glezos: i believe the guidelines will need more inputs
(runa_b) from ppl who have been doing the coordination between the
maintainers and translators for so long
(glezos) runa_b, good idea. We can contact aalam and ccheng for this.
Do you have anyone else in mind?
(runa_b) glezos: i'd say send a mail to the main mailing-lists
(runa_b) glezos: that'll grab more eyeballs imho
(glezos) runa_b, you mean fedora-devel-list?
(runa_b) glezos: umm...would you suggest that?
(glezos) runa_b, I don't think it's necessary, no.
(runa_b) glezos: fedora-trans-list for sure
(glezos) runa_b, IIRC I did send an email saying the page was created
(runa_b) glezos: yea..yesterday
(glezos) So, to keep everyone up2date
(runa_b) glezos: maybe another follow up seeking inputs, past
experiance etc
(glezos) the problem is that some developers don't take translations
too seriously, or they don't have time for them
(glezos) or we just don't communicate with them correctly
(glezos) and their packages are distributed with outdated translations.
(runa_b) yes..there is a thread going on :)
(glezos) First of all, I think *we* as a team should understand how
important translations are for Fedora.
(glezos) I believe more than 1 out of 2 people use localized applications
(glezos) That's a HUGE percentage
(glezos) We are responsible to make sure everybody understands the
importance of this issue
(glezos) If someone doesn't, then it's our mistake for not
communicating with them properly.
(glezos) So, we're doing some good steps towards that direction: The
String Freeze, it's Policy, the Guidelines
(glezos) particularly now for people who don't coorporate:
(glezos) if we see that the problem doesn't get fixed, like Alan said,
it means that the maintainer isn't doing his/her job
(glezos) we should raise the issue to -devel-list, notifying the
community that that particular package isn't developed correctly and
doesn't meet the standards we have for Fedora.
(kanarip) erhm
(ln-) one important point: is it appropriate to list a
missing/outdated translation as a "blocker" bug before a release?
(ln-) well, or at any moment of time.
(glezos) ln-, that's a decision of the Release Engineering team
(kanarip) glezos, you cannot just say something is developed incorrectly
(ln-) i.e. blocker bugs those that must be fixed before a new release.
(ln-) +are
(glezos) kanarip, my mistake -- remove the " isn't developed correctly
and" part of the sentence.
(kanarip) glezos, at most it lacks a feature'
(petreu) pretty bad looking part
(kanarip) glezos, also, "doesn't meet the standards we have for
Fedora" I just don't understand
(runa_b) well..the important part is some work done within the
scheduled time frame is being ignored
(kanarip) glezos, Fedora doesn't force standards to upstream, what if
we start telling them to all use automake
(runa_b) and thats a non-compliance at one level
(ln-) kanarip: ok, so translations are just wishlist-level "features"
that don't need to be there. roger that.
(glezos) kanarip, we have high goals for our desktop. Part of these
goals are to properly localize them
(vpv) kanarip: for s-c-network, Fedora is upstream and we should set
some standards here
(kanarip) vpv, glezos, +1
(glezos) I believe that for default apps in the Fedora desktop, like
those in the "System" menu, we should make sure that the localization
team gets what it wants.
(glezos) If the French team is aiming at a 100% localized desktop,
then it is very important for us as a project to support this goal
(petreu) especially cause a small problem in the upstream causes a lot
problems to loads of translation teams
(runa_b) glezos: its not just about the localization teams wants...if
there are translation stages determined for a release then it should
be applicable for the entire process
(glezos) runa_b, right.
(kanarip) glezos, that brings me to another point, with regards to
translation in upstream source repos
(kanarip) if you or anyone else updates the translations for an
application in the upstream repository, that doesn't really honour any
freeze now does it?
(glezos) kanarip, upstream has it's own release schedule and possible
freezes
(glezos) kanarip, we are string freezing apps that fedora is upstream
(glezos) ie apps that we are developing
(kanarip) glezos, ah, right
(ln-) string freezes are not about freezing translations but freezing
the translatable strings.
(glezos) so, instead of asking "what do we do if we can't have the
application being delivered to the users like we want", we can ask
directly "what do we do with system-config-network"?
(runa_b) i'd say yes
(runa_b) its better to get a reply from the maintainer
(glezos) ok -- who can try to contact him and request to take a look
at the bug report?
(ln-) i managed to contact the maintainer of s-c-network on irc, and
he said he'd do something about the bug "next week"... but that was
about a month ago already.
(runa_b) http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/HaraldHoyer
(runa_b) thats him
(glezos) The problem is that I don't know if Harald is informed on
what exactly our problem is
(glezos) Anyway. We can discuss this on the mailing list I guess
(petreu) +1
(glezos) I'll try to contact Harald too and see what the problems are
(runa_b) +1 to mailing list
(runa_b) and maybe cc harald in the discussion
(kanarip) glezos, it's all python and glade if Harald doesn't know how
or doesn't have time i might be able to come up with a patch
(ln-) what's the RedHat/Fedora procedure with packages... if the
package maintainer is busy or on vacation or lazy or whatever, can
someone else build and release a new package when it's only a matter
of simply adding a few files?
(runa_b) ln-: umm...ask warren perhaps
(ln-) I definitely hope anyone who is assigned to a package maintainer
knows how to add files to an RPM.
(glezos) ln-, that's a good question, maybe suited for -devel-list
(kanarip) that's what co-maintainers are for
(glezos) My suggestion is to have proper documentation on what we want
from the developers
(kanarip) but as s-c-n was in "core", it may not yet have a co-maintainer
(runa_b) +1 glezos
(vpv) kanarip: it's not an issue with the application code, some (or
actually a lot of) po files need to updated, that's all
(kanarip) vpv, right, that'd only take a second for him to fix
(glezos) So that they understand what we need as a project and how to
communicate if there's a problem
(glezos) vpv, it might also be an issue of not updating the package
before releases -- not sure
(runa_b) vpv: do we have a list of all the modules that are not updated?
(vpv) runa_b: I guess we don't...
(runa_b) hmm
(ln-) redhat-menus used to be a package whose translations were _very_
seldom updated. dunno about its current status.
(glezos) so, do we have an action item on this issue
(glezos) ?
(runa_b) *nod*
(glezos) Idea: maybe we could have a script that could check when the
modules in question were last updated and offer to send an email to
- -trans-list and the maintainers that we need repackaging?
(runa_b) glezos: we will need the script to check all the modules
(glezos) runa_b, right
(warren) ln-, that is a good question, let me check
(ln-) btw, i suppose these non-packaged translations issues may often
affect not only Fedora, but also RHEL (and therefore CentOS).
(glezos) ln-, right
(warren) OK, I got an answer.
(warren) If you are not receiving a prompt and responsible response to
pulling in translations especially before a key deadline, make sure a
Bugzilla ticket is filed and CC katzj redhat com  Poke jeremy directly
and make sure he sees it. He will beat people into action.
(glezos) warren, sounds like a plan.
(glezos) :)
• glezos should remember to buy jeremy a beer at fudcon
(runa_b) <paranoia mode> what if jeremy is on vacation </paranoia mode>
(warren) Then ask me.
(warren) in fact, CC us both
• petreu especially likes the beating part :)
(runa_b) glezos: two beers i believe :)
(warren) I don't drink, but thanks.
(warren) =)
(runa_b) thanks warren
(glezos) great then. Anyone else want to add anything on this topic?
(ln-) well..
(runa_b) glezos: we can add this information someplace
(runa_b) on the wiki i mean
(ln-) Translators shouldn't need to file bug reports for each package
they have updated.
(glezos) ln-, agreeed. With string and translation freezes we won't
have to
(ln-) The important packages should be always rebuilt before a new
release by default.
(warren) should ... is different from reality
(warren) jeremy, would it be difficult to make it RH engineering
policy to pull translations and rebuild at certain dates? l10n
shouldn't need to file a bug for each package every time.
(ln-) Or someone (e.g. with the help of the proposed script) could
file one bug report per package, containing a request to update all
languages.
(glezos) ln-, that would be helpful for everyone
(jeremy) warren: please stop saying that it's RH engineering. but we
could have a date on the schedule (in fact, I *thought* that we
already did)
(warren) jeremy, it is mostly RH engineering's responsibility is it not?
(warren) jeremy, are people held to the date on the schedule?
(jeremy) warren: there's nothing that says it has to be. it's any
project for which fedora is its own upstream
(glezos) jeremy, we have the translation freeze date on the schedule,
explained in the legend and in more detail here:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N/Freezes#translation
• jeremy looks at the schedule
(warren) glezos, my question is more like, "It might be on the
schedule, but are people held accountable to it?"
(jeremy) I think we just need to add a "please do a build with any new
translations for packages which we are the 'upstream' for" date right
before test3. we've had it on the schedule inthe past, not sure why
it's not on the F8 one
(jeremy) warren: just as much as they are anything about the schedule
(warren) ok
(glezos) jeremy, I'll update the legend with a more clear explanation
and a link to the L10N/Freezes link
(runa_b) glezos: the main schedule already has the translation freeze date
(runa_b) http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/8/Schedule
(runa_b) in bold
(warren) runa_b, although not a "pull translations" date
(warren) runa_b, past releases had it in the schedule
(glezos) runa_b, right, I'm just going to make it more clear what it
means on the legend
(runa_b) warren: hmm....
(glezos) warren, the "pull translations" date is the "translation
freeze" date
(warren) ok
(glezos) Any other comments on this topic?
     —› topic: (glezos) changes topic to (Fedora Localization Project
meeting -- Agenda: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N/Meetings#agenda
- -- Open floor)
(glezos) Any other topic anyone would like us to discuss?
(runa_b) nothing from me
(ln-) Does an average translator know what to do to submit
translations for F8, now that the translation CVS is becoming more or
less obsolete?
(glezos) ln-, we need to update the TQSGuide.. noriko started some
work on it @ http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N/Tasks/TQSG
(ln-) ok
(glezos) I want to have transifex up before the string freeze
(glezos) which is in 1 week.
(glezos) anyone who'd like to help out in the updating of the Guide,
please step forward! :)
(mustu) Yep! me
(petreu) glezos which dated translations will get into transifex?
(glezos) petreu, the current ones -- transifex will connect directly
to the VCS
(petreu) ah ok
(mustu) I was thinking about step by step guide with screen shots
(glezos) mustu, that sounds like a good idea
(petreu) i´d be pleased about that ;) getting confusing with more
instances (fedora cvs, elvis, transifex)
(mustu) i would like participate
(glezos) the simpler we do it the better. As long as we can maintain it.
(glezos) mustu, send an email to the list, put your ideas, schedule of
work on the page and jump right into action. :)
(glezos) Anything else?
(glezos) I guess we are out of time.
(runa_b) petreu: i guess we were supposed to add the list of repos to
the wiki
(mustu) i think i should ask noriko ..ofcourse he will be senior then
me and can correct mistakes in my ideas regarding this project
(runa_b) perhaps to the guidelines page
(runa_b) mustu: noriko is a lady :)
(mustu) oh... sorry
(glezos) runa_b, http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N/Tools#modules
(runa_b) oh yea...darn i guess i am half asleep
(mustu) can i get noriko's wiki page url?
(runa_b) apologies glezos
(glezos) mustu, better send it to the whole list. You can start
working on anything you feel like and we'll catch up on it
(mustu) ok, thanks sir
(glezos) I'd say jump right into the wiki page /Tasks/TQSG and the XML :)
(glezos) Closing the meeting?
(glezos) in 30
(glezos) 10
(glezos) </meeting>
(glezos) Thanks everyone


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