Re: 7.1 is out soon

["Weston Rogers" <skol csc craven cc nc us>]

Amen Bill!

I'm tired of people dogging redhat, and how they are becoming a "M$ of
Linux" If that isn't BS, call me the tooth fairy. Just because redhat wants
people to see how great Linux is, and get more and more people using it as
their main, or _desktop_ OS of choice , doesnt mean we should dog them about
it.  Redhat is trying to make Linux poplular.

I've been with RH since the 5.x releases, and I've been 100% happy.  I've
acually _tried_ other distros, of course the distros that everyone "claim"
to be much better.  Debian, and SuSe, which makes you wonder after the
install asks for the 5th disc when you told it to install a "server".  And
most of the 1600 software packages it comes with are useless, maybe not to
everyone, but less is more, and I rather not get r00ted.

I'm a network adminstrator of a community college, where before then ran all
NT boxes.  What a nightmare.  bandwidth was horrible, machines were hacked,
nothing was up to par.  What saved the day? Redhat 6.2.  Streamless
installs, easy setup, no configuration woes, and the best part once you
learn your way around it, its pretty much the same.  Redhat turned my 10 NT
server network into a farm of 30+ machines , running solid for a year
without any downtime, and 99.9% uptime.  MYSQL, Apache, Tux, DNS,
proxy/ipmasq servers all run with glee.  We've got 2 7.0 machines that run
flawless.  I'm estatic on their new release.




----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Farrell" <billfarr ages com>
To: <redhat-install-list redhat com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 12:17 PM
Subject: RE: 7.1 is out soon


> I've studiously stayed out of this thread until now...Awright, y'all... my
> $.02:-)
>
> I'm sticking with RedHat because it's grown my web business from "A"
server
> getting few hits per day to a multi-national server farm getting about 40
> million+ a week and steadily growing.  And has done so admirably.  My
> partner, Nic, and I have an excellent reputation for uptime and
> availability, thanks to RH.
>
> I'm also used to the way RH installs; I've had EXCELLENT experience with
> their support;  and once installed, you can treat the machine like
> furniture.  It's there, it's running, it's doing its job without
> intervention.  Throw a doily on top for pretty.
>
> Aside from checking emails each server sends me about its health
(post-scan,
> post-script-operation, turning logs, etc), there's not much to do for any
> individual machine.  The server-farm-qua-hivemind sorta rocks and rolls
on,
> quietly doing its job.  In two countries and at several access points, at
> that.  All homegrown.  That is, we spend our time adding features that
> people WANT rather than figuring out how to get and keep a server going.
>
> I've tried SuSe and found it a bit weird, like a throwback to UnixWare
where
> everything was in a strange places, called strange things, and the
defaults
> were nowhere NEAR what a real, online, working shop would want.  It's fine
> for people playing about with Linux and some toys, but let's face it:  as
> bad as linuxconf is (and, yeah, it's pretty awful), yast is even more
> painful and unpredictable.  You can't configure half the stuff you need to
> with it; it only configures half of any given thing and never finishing
the
> job, leaving you to figure out where the hell the rest is; and Go Find
what
> else you need to modify in order to get the sucker to work.  At best,
expect
> to spend hours tuning.  Drop yer breadcrumbs, Hansel & Gretel, cuz you'll
> need a trail home.
>
> My impression? Fuhgeddaboudit!!! I prefer a known installation with a
> install-tune-and-go, where I can go from computer-qua-vegetable to
> server-in-production in about a half-hour.  That simply hasn't happened
with
> any other release of Linux I've tried so far.  Up time in the web and data
> warehousing business is your lifeblood.  One simply cannot take the risk
to
> use ANYTHING but road-tested-and-proven-worthy products.
>
> I don't have time to c**k around with unravelling annoying mysteries in
SuSe
> or any of the others, like why routes don't work right, how to add extra
IP
> addresses to NICs, where and what did they call whatever.conf, and a host
of
> other irritating issues.  And whyinhell do I want all the useless, extra
> CRAP software that gets installed with it?  I just want a server that
> serves, not a Fisher-Price BusyBox.
>
> I'm taking care of about 25 servers by myself, with the help of a LOT of
> crafty scripting to make each machine administer itself AND its
neighbours.
> Try THAT with M$.  Simple answer:  you can't.  I know that SuSe "COULD"
and
> would probably do as admirable a job, but I don't have days to bring a
> machine up to speed, spend hours struggling with the bizarre configs,
> weeding out useless crap, etc etc, each and every time.
>
> In my book, that makes SuSe a good candidate for developers, hackers,
> trend-setters, and back-office machines that can tolerate the amount of
> fiddling required.  NOT on a production floor.  My machines need to be
> productive NOW, not tomorrow or the next day.
>
> And God love Mandrake, but if I'm going to be buying RH anyway, I may as
> well get it right from the source.  WITH the correct support, thank you.
>
> Caldera will probably never get it just right, though they do try.
They're
> simply too small and perennially underfunded for me to bet my business on.
> There again, an excellent candidate for desktop or app development use,
but
> not on a server production floor.
>
> What forms my opinions? I've had about 20 years experience with *nix, plus
> every OS that IBM ever came out with from PC to mainframe.  I've installed
> and maintained *nix and *nix-like systems since System III (yeah, I'm
> THOROUGHLY dated now!), including WE, Xenix, Dec/UX, HP/UX, DG/UX,
UnixWare,
> SCO, Berserkley, and a score of others so obscure even _I_ don't remember
> all their names.  But I do think I'm qualified to ascertain what will work
> best in my own shop.  Just as you are in yours.
>
> I've also worked in Very Large Blue shops, installing and maintaining MVS
> and VM systems.  Working in large IBM shops did change my outlook on
> software products--now, when I buy a package, I expect it to work as
> advertised and expect full support behind it.  By golly, it appears that
the
> management of RH have actually read former IBM CEO Buck Rogers' book
> entitled _The IBM Way_ which speaks about treating customers (and
employees,
> I hope) right.
>
> Answering the phone, returning calls, returning emails, "the little things
> that make a house a home"; that's my experience with RH.  A damnsight more
> than I've gotten from other vendors, whose typical answer is "sift through
> the website when you have hours and hours and you MIGHT find what you're
> looking for.  Otherwise, you're on your own."  Rain on that: I can get
that
> treatment from M$ for even more money out the door.
>
> No way to run a business, my friends.  I'm in business to make money to
feed
> my family, not to fart around with toys and experimental whatsits.  I'd
> *LOVE* the luxury of being able to play, buuuuut, duty calls...
>
> I've stuck by RH since shortly before rel 5.  Each release I've tried has
> gotten better each time, save for 7.0.  Big Deal.  One bad apple don't
spoil
> the whole barrel.  Come to think of it, 6.0 wasn't all-that, either.  The
> communications I've been reading on various lists and emails between
> collegues smack of some (proper) contritition on RH's part.  Given my
> personal experience with RH, I can easily forgive a nasty release.  It
WILL
> be better the next go...there's proven history.  I knew when I bought 7.0
> that it wouldn't be going into production, but let's face it:  at the
price,
> why not have a play with it?  I don't see folks flocking to pay thousands
of
> dollars to find out that Win2K ain't all-that, either.  A stable,
> inexpensive, reliable OS is all that's required, here.
>
> And who puts ANYBODY's x.0 release into production?  Not if you treasure
> your business, you don't.  Ever.  One gets an x.0 release to see what's
> going to be in it when it grows up.  I like what I saw in 7.0 (just
please,
> heavens, let them figure out the xinetd weirdness I wrote about before)
and
> am just waiting for things to sort out a bit. 7.1 may be "it".
>
> If RH were all as bad as they've been made out, I probably WOULD be
running
> SuSe.  As a close-second-best, it's at least stable enough to put into
> production.  But that would mean a LOT of re-engineering and right now I
> just don't have enough hands to entertain the notion.  Plus my
> admin/maintenance burden would increase due to SuSe's weird ideas about
> configurations.  Definitely cute and sometimes handy IF AND WHEN you can
> figure them out, but not at all *nixlike.  More like SCO or UnixWare or
> something else with a weirdass twist on it.
>
> My plan:  listen to this list and see what other people think of 7.1.  If
it
> sounds tasty, I'll probably do what I normally do and go buy the biggest
Big
> Box Set (as I always do) and migrate into the new release.  Then I'll
smash
> all my impressions together and see if it goes into production or not at
> THAT moment.
>
> For now, 6.2 with the updates work' fine, las' longtime.  At least one can
> GET updates!  Try that with M$, either.  I've been the victim of M$'s
> "updates" more than once, thank you.  I'll put my faith and my business in
> the hands of a company who've proven that they can bring something to
market
> which actually works and is stable enough upon which to run an enterprise.
> That, and a lot of other very large reasons my partner & I threw M$ out
> bodily.
>
> If you're happy with Mandrake, Suse, Caldera, or any of the
> also-out-there's, God be with you.  Be happy with what makes you happy.
I'm
> personally glad that there are people who have the time and resources to
be
> experimental.  That's how trails get blazed and new products arise (just
ask
> Mr. Torvalds).  When the new toys are stable, the rest of us will have a
> chance to play, too.  But not a split-second before then.
>
> Just because you have a personal preference for a particular product
doesn't
> mean that all other products are Bad Ideas, and that the people who use
them
> are all w*nkers.  I find that notion to be just a bit offencive.  A lot of
> us have preferences based on solid business reasons and nothing more.
>
> Live 'n' let live, guys and gals.
>
> Peace,
> Bill
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kalum / Grendel [mailto:kalum lintux cx]
> Sent: Monday, April 16, 2001 8:57 PM
> To: Nabeel S. Kandah
> Cc: redhat-install-list redhat com
> Subject: Re: 7.1 is out soon
>
>
> On  Mon, 16 Apr 2001, Nabeel S. Kandah commented thusly,
>
> > Oh no what's a linux fan to do? Redhat finally releases (April 24) 7.1
> > after I slap Suse 7.1 on my machine, complete with kernel 2.4, XFree86
> > 4.0.2, kde 2.0.1, and assorted toys and trinkets.
>
> > should I return to Redhat or hang with the Teutonic Linux Distro? Suse
>
> Please dont even consider installing redhats beta software on your system,
> we all know how their 7.x release suck, so my advice would be to stick
> with a trouble free distro, like the one you have, or mandrake.
>
> > is quite awesome, I might add, no complaints of the major variety. For
>
> Indeed, unlike Rh 7.x, which seems to be more buggy than windoze, infact I
> am sure it is, its just that there is no way of quantifying this by using
> the bug number, becuase more bugs would have been discovered in windoze
> becuase of the very very large user base.
>
> > now Suse is my Linux, but I do have a soft spot for the Redhatters,
> > whose version 5.2 introduced me to a non-windoze world.
>
> So do I, but there (RH) latest distros suck badly, and they have become
> havily commercialised, so it would be highliy advisable to stay well away
> from any new releases, just the same way that you would stay away from any
> software that M$ release..
>
> > RedHat 7.1 - I bet it's a major improvement over 7.0. The *.1 series are
> > generally of higher quality.
>
> Redhat 7.x arent particularly known for there quality or well plannedness
> are they? They certainly are known for there overwhelming preference for
> satisfying commercial requests than prudence so this might suck even
> more...since they are becoming more and more commercialised day by day.
>
> > What's a Linux Fan to do?
>
> For a distro, the major options worth considering are Mandrake, Suse and
> Debian. Since you have Suse, pelase stick with it, it sounds you are very
> happy.
>
> > Long Live Linux
>
> Long live Debian, Mandrake, and Suse :)
>
> Best Wishes,
> Grendel
>
>
> --
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>
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