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Re: [dm-devel] [PATCH 1/6] dm raid45 target: export region hash functions and add a needed one
- From: Neil Brown <neilb suse de>
- To: heinzm redhat com
- Cc: Christoph Hellwig <hch infradead org>, Dan Williams <dan j williams intel com>, device-mapper development <dm-devel redhat com>, Ed Ciechanowski <ed ciechanowski intel com>
- Subject: Re: [dm-devel] [PATCH 1/6] dm raid45 target: export region hash functions and add a needed one
- Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 22:06:12 +1000
On Friday June 19, heinzm redhat com wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-06-19 at 11:43 +1000, Neil Brown wrote:
> > On Wednesday June 17, neilb suse de wrote:
> > >
> > > I will try to find time to review your dm-raid5 code with a view to
> > > understanding how it plugs in to dm, and then how the md/raid5 engine
> > > can be used by dm-raid5.
> Hi Neil.
> > I've had a bit of a look through the dm-raid5 patches.
> > Some observations:
> > - You have your own 'xor' code against which you do a run-time test of
> > the 'xor_block' code which md/raid5 uses - then choose the fasted.
> > This really should not be necessary. If you have xor code that runs
> > faster than anything in xor_block, it really would be best to submit
> > it for inclusion in the common xor code base.
> This is in because it actually shows better performance regularly by
> utilizing cache lines etc. more efficiently (tested on Intel, AMD and
> If xor_block would always have been performed best, I'd dropped that
> optimization already.
I'm no expert on this I must admit - I just use the xor code that
others have provided.
However it is my understanding that some of the xor code options were
chosen deliberately because they bypassed the cache. As the xor
operation operates on data that very probably was not in the cache,
and only touches it once, and touches quite a lot of data, there is
little benefit having in the cache, and a possible real cost as it
pushes other data out of the cache.
That said, the "write" process involves copying data from a buffer
into the cache, and then using that data as a source for xor. In that
case the cache might be beneficial, I'm not sure.
I've occasionally wondered if it might be good to have an xor routine
that does "copy and xor". This would use more registers than the
current code so we could possibly process fewer blocks at a time, but
we might be processing them faster. In that case, if we could bypass
the cache to read the data, but use the cache to store the result of
the xor, that would be ideal. However I have no idea if that is
The mechanism you use, which is much the same as the one used by
xor_block, calculates speed for the hot-cache case. It is not clear
that this is often a relevant cache - mostly xor is calculated when
the cache is cold. So it isn't clear if it is generally applicable.
That is why calibrate_xor_blocks sometimes skips the xor_speed test
However if your code performs better than the cache-agnostic code in
xor_block, then we should replace that code with your code, rather
than have two places that try to choose the optimal code.
And I would be very interested to see a discussion about how relevant
the cache bypassing is in real life... It looks like it was Zach
Brown who introduced this about 10 years ago, presumably in
consultation with Ingo Molnar.
> > - You have introduced "dm-message" which is a frame work for sending
> > messages to dm targets.
> dm-message is a parser for messages sent to a device-mapper targets
> message interface. It aims at allowing common message parsing functions
> to be shared between targets.
> The message interface in general allows for runtime state changes of
> targets like those you found below.
> See "dmsetup message ..."
> > It is used for adjusting the cache size,
> > changing the bandwidth used by resync, and doing things with
> > statistics. Linux already has a framework for sending messages to
> > kernel objects. It is called "sysfs". It would be much nicer if
> > you could use that.
> Looks to me like heavier to program (I counted ~100 LOC of sysfs defines
> and calls in md.c) for 3 files used in md.
> That needs some more discussion.
In dm-raid45 you have 170 lines from "Message interface" to "END
message interface", which is 4 files I think. Am I counting the same
In any case, it is certainly possible that sysfs usage could be
improved. We recently added strict_blocks_to_sectors() which extracted
a common parsing task. Once upon a time, we open coded things with
simple_strtoull and repeated the error checking every time.
There is always room for improvement.
But I think the uniformity across the kernel is the most important
issue here, not the lines of code.
There is a bit of tension here: your dm-message approach is similar
in style to the way targets are created. The sysfs approach is
similar in style to many other parts of the kernel. So should your
new mechanism be consistent with dm or consistent with linux - it
cannot easily be both.
This is really a question that the dm developers as a group need to
consider and answer. I would like to recommend that transitioning
towards more uniformity with the rest of linux is a good idea, and
here is excellent opportunity to start. But it isn't my decision.
> > - Your algorithm for limiting bandwidth used by resync seems to be
> > based on a % concept (which is rounded to the nearest reciprocal,
> > so 100%, 50%, 33%, 25%, 20%, 16% etc). If there is outstanding
> > IO, the amount of outstanding resync IO must not exceed the given
> > percentage of regular IO. While it is hard to get resync "just
> > right", I think this will have some particularly poor
> > characteristics.
> My ANALYZEME pointed you there ? ;-)
> That's why it's in. I admitted with that that I'm not satisfied with the
> characteristics yet.
My concern then is that the mechanism for guiding the speed - which is
not yet finalised - is being encoded in the command for creating the
array. That would make it difficult to change at a later date.
I would suggest not specifying anything when creating the array and
insisting that a default be chosen.
Then you can experiment with mechanism using different dm-message or
sysfs-files with some sort of warning that these are not part of the
> > Also it does not take account of IO to other partitions on a device.
> > It is common to have a number of different arrays on the same device
> > set. You really want to resync to back off based on IO to all of
> > the device, not just to the array.
> Does MD RAID > 0 cope with that in multi-partition RAID configs ?
> disk1:part1+disk2:part1 -> md0 and disk1:part2+disk2:part2 -> md1 with
> global iostats for disk ?
Yes. 'gendisk' has 'sync_io' specifically for this purpose.
When md submits IO for the purpose of resync (or recovery) it adds a
count of the sectors to this counter. That can be compared with the
regular io statistics for the genhd to see if there is an non-sync IO
happening. If there is the genhd is assumed to be busy and we backoff
This is not a perfect solution as it only goes one level down.
If we had raid1 over raid0 over partitions, then we might not notice
resync IO from elsewhere properly. But I don't think I've ever had a
complaint about that.
> > Everything else could be made available by md to dm with only a
> > moderate amount of effort.
> > Of the different interface routines you require:
> > + .ctr = raid_ctr,
> > This would be quite straight forward, though it might be worth
> > discussing the details of the args passed in.
> > "recovery_bandwidth" (as I say above) I don't think is well chosen,
> I was aware it needs further tweaking (your points above taken).
> You mean the wording here ?
The thing that I don't think was well chosen was the choice of a
percentage to guide the speed of resync.
> > and I don't quite see the point of io_size (maybe I'm missing
> > something obvious)
> Performance related. I studied read ahead/chunk size/io size pairs and
> found examples of better performance with io_size > PAGE_SIZE <=
> chunk_size. io_size being 2^N.
> Do you have similar experiences to share with MD RAID ?
My position has always been that it is up to lower layers to combine
pages together. md/raid5 does all IO in pages. If it is more
efficient for some device to do multiple pages as a time, it should
combine the pages.
The normal plugging mechanisms combined with the elevator should be
enough for this.
We have put more focus in to gathering write-pages into whole strips
so that no pre-reading is needed - we can just calculate parity and
write. This has a significant effect on throughput.
(A 'strip' is like a 'stripe' but it is one page wide, not one chunk
> > + .presuspend = raid_presuspend,
> > I call this 'quiesce'
> > + .postsuspend = raid_postsuspend,
> > I'm not sure exactly how this fits in. Something related to the
> > log...
> We use these distinct presuspend/postsuspend methods in order to allow
> for targets to distinguish flushing any io in flight in presuspend and
> release/quiesce/... any resource (e.g. quiesce the dirty log) utilized
> in the first step in postsuspend.
> If MD RAID doesn't need that, stick with presuspend.
> > + .message = raid_message,
> > As I said, I would rather this didn't exist.
> I think its better to offer options to be utilized for different
> purposes. Tradeoff is always (some) overlap.
> We don't have one filesystem for all use cases ;-)
No... I find myself wearing several hats here.
As a developer, I think it is great that you are writing your own
raid5 implementation. Doing stuff like that is lots of fun and a
valuable learning experience. As I read though the code there were a
number of time when I thought "that looks rather neat". Quite
possibly there are ideas in dm-raid5 that I could "steal" to make
dm-message certainly has its merits too (as I said, it fits the dm model).
As a member of the linux kernel community, I want to see linux grow
with a sense of unity. Where possible, similar tasks should be
addressed in similar ways. This avoid duplicating mistakes, eases
maintenance, and makes it easier for newcomers to learn. Establishing
Patterns and following them is a good thing. Hence my desire to
encourage the use of sysfs and a single xor implementation.
As an employee of a company that sells support, I really don't want a
profusion of different implementations of something that I am seen as
an expert in, as I know I'll end up having to support all of them.
So for very selfish reasons, I'd prefer fewer versions of NFS, fewer
file-systems, and fewer raid5 implementations :-)
Well... fewer that we contract to support anyway.
> > I suspect, using your model, the approach would be a 'dm-message'
> > acknowledging that a given device is faulty. I would, of course,
> > rather this be done via sysfs.
> > I will try to look at factoring out the md specific part of md/raid5
> > over the next few days (maybe next week) and see how that looks.
> That'll be interesting to see how it fits into the device-mapper
> I take it You'll port code to create an "md-raid456" target ?
That's the idea. I'll let you know when I have something credible.
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