Logs from this weeks (20080507) meeting

[Stephen John Smoogen]

**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed May  7 10:31:05 2008

May 07 10:31:05 *	Now talking on #fedora-meeting
May 07 11:00:45 <smooge>	i am here for a meeting I moved to the wrong time
May 07 11:01:09 <spoleeba>	smooge, epel meeting?
May 07 11:01:17 <nirik>	smooge: no worries... we can do it in an hour
and move next time?
May 07 11:01:28 <smooge>	yeah
May 07 11:01:44 <smooge>	dumb-de-dumb-dumb
May 07 11:50:15 >#fedora-devel<	reminder ping: Jeff_S, knurd,
mmcgrath, nirik, smooge, stahnma, quaid and everyone interested in
EPEL -- EPEL meeting in #fedora-meeting at 18:00 UTC
May 07 12:00:29 *	smooge has changed the topic to: EPEL Sig meeting --
Meeting rules at
http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Extras/Schedule/MeetingGuidelines --
Init process
May 07 12:00:40 >#fedora-devel<	Meeting ping: Jeff_S, knurd, mmcgrath,
nirik, smooge, stahnma, quaid and everyone interested in EPEL -- EPEL
meeting in #fedora-meeting now!
May 07 12:01:05 <smooge>	Hi everybody; who's around for the EPEL meeting?
May 07 12:01:29 *	smooge likes to remind everyone that the schedule
for todays meeting as well as a list of all open tasks can be found
on... oh crap.. stupid stupid stupid leader
May 07 12:01:42 *	nirik is here for a bit... but will have to go pick
up a dog from the vet soon.
May 07 12:01:43 <spoleeba>	smooge, im here..but im new...so be gentle
May 07 12:04:17 <smooge>	well no problem
May 07 12:04:30 <smooge>	I think this will be a non-meeting as most
everyone on the board can't make it
May 07 12:05:14 <nirik>	yeah, we need a better time or something. ;(
May 07 12:05:21 <smooge>	first I wanted to say that I missed in the
guidelines where we change the meetings to 1700UTC on Daylight Savings
TIme... but then I realized that DST is different around the world so
that makes it really hard to figure out
May 07 12:06:59 <smooge>	ok so with only 3 of us here.. this will be
really simple.
May 07 12:07:18 <smooge>	I am almost caught up with the weekly
reports. I have this weeks to finish and mail out
May 07 12:07:58 <smooge>	We have a lot of new pacakges it would seem
and some concerns that we have too many broken dependencies
May 07 12:08:34 <nirik>	note that broken deps are only ever in testing.
May 07 12:08:52 <nirik>	smooge: I also processed your plague branch...
so you should be able to build that anytime.
May 07 12:09:19 *	mmcgrath pongs
May 07 12:10:30 <smooge>	Well they are affecting some stuff to production. I
May 07 12:10:48 <smooge>	I need to have an IRC client that uses ^U
like its supposed to be.. it would seem
May 07 12:10:53 *	quaid is here now
May 07 12:10:57 <smooge>	hello guys
May 07 12:11:20 <spoleeba>	mmcgrath, you saw my latest email to you
concerning your proposal? sent yesterday
May 07 12:11:21 <smooge>	first thing.. the meeting is supposed to be
at 1700 UTC during summer months... I am not sure if thats good for
everyone or not
May 07 12:11:35 <nirik>	either works for me.
May 07 12:11:40 *	quaid is OK with that, but what is the cutoff?
May 07 12:11:52 <quaid>	that is, which daylight savings switch do we follow?
May 07 12:12:40 <smooge>	quaid, that is the problem I don't think is
well thought out.
May 07 12:12:55 <smooge>	I will open  an email to the list and get
that pinned down.
May 07 12:13:07 <smooge>	second quaid you would like to get some data
for your talks?
May 07 12:13:07 <mmcgrath>	spoleeba: I did.
May 07 12:13:16 <quaid>	+1 to data
May 07 12:13:24 <quaid>	growth, usage, types of packages
May 07 12:14:13 <smooge>	also I would like to get people to say what
they are wanting the project to be for them.. to see if we can get an
idea of where this bus is headed
May 07 12:15:02 <quaid>	true
May 07 12:15:09 <quaid>	although
May 07 12:15:18 <quaid>	I think that puts is back in the Fedora focus land
May 07 12:15:25 <quaid>	that is, we're going to see lots of answers
May 07 12:15:43 <smooge>	actually we have seen 0 :)
May 07 12:15:51 <quaid>	even better!
May 07 12:16:04 <quaid>	perfect consensus
May 07 12:16:45 *	nirik has that mail marked to reply to, just hasn't
gotten to it yet. ;)
May 07 12:18:01 <smooge>	I know people like Micheal Schwendt have one
view of things and Knurd has a different view.. and there have been
views from a year ago.. but currently we are new people at it and
should make sure we are meeting our customers needs
May 07 12:18:33 <nirik>	pity that all we have to communicate with end
users is the epel-devel list. ;(
May 07 12:18:43 <nirik>	could try blog posting I guess...
May 07 12:18:46 <quaid>	one of the keys is making sure whatever people
want, it fits within the slower, more stable nature of EPEL
May 07 12:18:59 <quaid>	+1 to blogging, and maybe we want to discuss ...
May 07 12:19:03 <quaid>	well, do we need an EPEL specific list?
May 07 12:19:19 <quaid>	or mmcgrath, what about using a Sysadmin SIG as a place?
May 07 12:19:27 <nirik>	we talked about an announce list, but not sure
if we decided we needed it or not...
May 07 12:19:30 *	quaid knows that would miss e.g. developers and
end-users who use EPEL though ..
May 07 12:19:53 <mmcgrath>	quaid: sorry had a phone call, catching up.
May 07 12:20:20 <smooge>	Well the first place is to find out where our
customers talk... rhel lists versus fedora-devel is my feeling... but
its probably much more on centos lists
May 07 12:20:43 <nirik>	I think fudcon/redhat summit would also be a
good place to get feedback... but also to get more end users.
May 07 12:20:47 <quaid>	actually, we probably need to make sure the
steering committee has a good rep from various parties (sysadmin, pure
consumers, contributors/packagers, developers, etc.)
May 07 12:21:08 <quaid>	or we divide these areas to have a watch over
May 07 12:21:18 <smooge>	which also comes up to a new thing... when do
we have elections for EPEL steering committee
May 07 12:21:34 <quaid>	when we want to? :)
May 07 12:21:59 <spoleeba>	since im new... can anyone sum up the state
of the epel and centos communication lines?
May 07 12:22:05 <quaid>	sorry, I know elections are part of making a
formal project, but a SIG can move as it needs, right?  we still need
to grow our reach into various groups to attract enough people to have
a vote, etc.
May 07 12:22:23 <quaid>	spoleeba: cabalistic, afaict :)
May 07 12:22:43 <spoleeba>	quaid, just as long as its not open warfare
May 07 12:23:10 <smooge>	Well we currently have 8 members and I would
like it to be a 12 month cycle for half the board.
May 07 12:23:41 <quaid>	we don't have a group to do the voting
May 07 12:23:48 <quaid>	so we could only open to all groups or something.
May 07 12:24:07 <smooge>	spoleeba, the state of CentOS + EPEL
communications are strained.
May 07 12:24:17 <quaid>	because of issues?
May 07 12:24:26 <smooge>	I would not say they are dead, but I would
not say they are best chums.
May 07 12:24:44 <quaid>	um, what did we do wrong?
May 07 12:25:06 *	quaid missed something, considering he was all
"CentOS this and CentOS that" talking about EPEL in a podcasty thing
the other day
May 07 12:25:07 <nirik>	they might not like us due to repotag.
May 07 12:25:15 <smooge>	quaid, to .epel. or to not. We chose not to
May 07 12:25:31 <mmcgrath>	I'd think they're over that now though.
May 07 12:25:40 *	mmcgrath still hangs out in #centos-social and chats
with them.
May 07 12:25:45 <mmcgrath>	I don't feel any distain for me anyway :)
May 07 12:26:02 <mmcgrath>	they're good guys.  I suspect if we had a
project or need that we could certainly go to them and talk about it.
May 07 12:26:09 <smooge>	mmcgrath, memories are long... they are not
disdainful but it is a point of contention that comes up when looking
for common ground.
May 07 12:27:58 <nirik>	well, also centos/rhel users are slow to adopt
new repos... so we need to keep going along and being stable and
offering more and more...
May 07 12:28:02 <spoleeba>	the centos userbase would be an obvious
group to encourage to participate in EPEL, but such a discussion can't
appear as poaching
May 07 12:28:19 <nirik>	there is no easy way to magically appear and
get all the conservitive users to use epel.
May 07 12:28:35 <nirik>	there is also some overlap with centos-extras.
May 07 12:28:45 <quaid>	which goes to spoleeba's point
May 07 12:28:56 <quaid>	that it would be great if folks could do that
work in Fedora
May 07 12:29:00 <quaid>	without feeling like it was poaching.
May 07 12:29:34 <quaid>	this seems related to me the concern that EPEL
maintainers might not appreciate RHEL pulling in packages "from" EPEL;
some people appreciate the idea, others might not
May 07 12:29:43 <quaid>	but the fact is ...
May 07 12:29:57 <quaid>	when centos-extras does a package that is
popular, we are going to want it in our repo
May 07 12:30:08 <smooge>	the bigger issue is that we need to make sure
we can work well in some fashion with Dag's stuff. At least be clear
why we can't work well together and that we don't have problems with
that.
May 07 12:30:09 <quaid>	and when we do good work in making that
popular, RHEL is going to want it in their repo.
May 07 12:30:10 *	nirik nods
May 07 12:31:08 <spoleeba>	smooge, there's a name ive lost track of
May 07 12:31:13 <smooge>	working well meaning that our package
standards and his are not the same and this causes conflicts
May 07 12:31:39 <nirik>	well, there is not going to ever be any easy
way to do that... all the other repos have different standards...
May 07 12:31:45 <spoleeba>	smooge, is dag's effort multi-person at
this point..or is it a one man show
May 07 12:31:58 <nirik>	dag is part of rpmforge now I think.
May 07 12:32:05 <nirik>	which is changing to something else.
May 07 12:32:10 <smooge>	The same with Axel's standards and such. The
bigger issue is that we just need to be clear that we are different
and we recommend that a person choose one repo or another.
May 07 12:32:28 <nirik>	rpmrepo
May 07 12:32:37 <smooge>	dag is also an auxilliary member of the
CentOS group now I think... but I could be wrong
May 07 12:32:51 *	bashohII has quit ("夢よりも現ã(R)é·¹ãžé ¼ã‚‚ã—ã")
May 07 12:32:51 <nirik>	I thought thats what we had decided...
May 07 12:34:06 <mdomsch>	is rpmrepo not the same as rpmfusion?
May 07 12:34:06 <smooge>	spoleeba, my personal belief is that he is
actually an army of packagers hidden in Germany... but he does have
people helping on the forge emails
May 07 12:34:17 *	nirik needs to go pick up a dog soon.
May 07 12:34:45 <smooge>	mdomsch, no. Knurd + Axel/Dag == big-bang :)
May 07 12:35:13 <nirik>	http://rpmrepo.org/FrontPage/People
May 07 12:35:16 <mdomsch>	rpmfusion = dribble, freshrpms, livna;
rpmrepo = centos, scientific, atrpms, and dag and dries
May 07 12:35:28 <mdomsch>	arrggh
May 07 12:35:34 <quaid>	whee, just what we need
May 07 12:35:34 <nirik>	yeah.
May 07 12:36:01 <smooge>	well its going to happen. people have
different views and different ways of communicating.
May 07 12:36:01 <quaid>	"Fedora EPEL -- where everyone is welcome to
contribute."
May 07 12:36:11 <smooge>	if they sign the CLA :)
May 07 12:36:21 <quaid>	smooge: oh, it's all full of irony
May 07 12:36:21 <smooge>	and the code is opensource
May 07 12:36:43 <smooge>	and... anyway need to find a topic to stick to :)
May 07 12:36:47 <quaid>	+1 to "no repo is necc. better, depends on
your view, choose one or lose"
May 07 12:37:05 *	smooge has changed the topic to: EPEL --- We need to
have a topic here...
May 07 12:37:41 <quaid>	I'll gladly say and show why EPEL is worth
choosing, without having to say anything about other repos; there
isn't a need to.
May 07 12:37:49 <nirik>	FWIW, we are using epel here on all our centos
machines and it pretty much has all the things we need...
May 07 12:37:50 <smooge>	I think the main issue is that I think we
should see how we can help the others and ourselves. We know that we
are each meeting different customer needs... so make it so they are
met and they aren't confused
May 07 12:38:38 <spoleeba>	quaid, your presentation is aimed at paying
rhel users?
May 07 12:38:39 <smooge>	s/they/our customers-clients-mindless-zombie-hordes/
May 07 12:38:41 *	nirik has to go very soon.
May 07 12:38:52 <smooge>	ok nirik hope the god is ok
May 07 12:39:08 <nirik>	I would like to propose we meet next week at
17UTC... since we didn't have many folks here this week?
May 07 12:39:39 <quaid>	spoleeba: um ...
May 07 12:39:59 *	quaid looks at something, one sec
May 07 12:40:00 <smooge>	A proposal has been made on the floor. I +1
the proposal.
May 07 12:40:33 <nirik>	+1's his own proposal (is that kosher?)
May 07 12:40:34 <quaid>	can someone explain ..
May 07 12:40:39 <quaid>	the nature of the timechange for me?
May 07 12:40:46 <quaid>	that is, what is different where that makes 17
UTC better?>
May 07 12:41:02 *	quaid is not oppposed, but wants to grok what he is
voting on :)
May 07 12:41:41 <quaid>	spoleeba: ok, my session is slotted in the
"Open Source" track, within the "Deploy" path
May 07 12:41:56 <quaid>	spoleeba: and (re)titled "Fedora Packages for
Red Hat Enterprise Linux"
May 07 12:41:57 <smooge>	quaid, 1) the epel meeting time was supposed
to change accroding to wiki and 2) lots of people are finding 1800
hard
May 07 12:42:12 <nirik>	it makes it be the same time for all the North
American folks who are in places with DST...
May 07 12:42:13 <quaid>	(which is a better title, in some respects.)
May 07 12:42:45 *	nirik notes that fudcon attendees can get into the
Red Hat summit open source track free! Wheeee!
May 07 12:43:14 *	nirik leaves... will check scrollback later.
May 07 12:43:29 <quaid>	ok, so ...
May 07 12:43:29 <smooge>	quaid, what is stanhma's paper?
May 07 12:43:43 <quaid>	I don't get the DST thing then, were we
supposed to change in March?
May 07 12:43:50 <quaid>	anyway, if 17 UTC is better, I can do that
May 07 12:44:13 <quaid>	might match my reality better; I keep trying
to hit the cafe *before* this meeting to be there already but can't do
it, so if we pull it back an hour, i can go after
May 07 12:44:30 <smooge>	Ouch bug-zappers has 1700
May 07 12:44:46 <quaid>	smooge: manahttp://stahnma.fedorapeople.org/summit/
May 07 12:44:51 <quaid>	http://stahnma.fedorapeople.org/summit/
May 07 12:44:58 <quaid>	Release Management best practices
May 07 12:45:03 <quaid>	under a modified title perhaps
May 07 12:45:23 *	jeff_hann has quit ()
May 07 12:45:30 <quaid>	so, it covers RHN Satellite; and I was
wondering if he delivers EPEL that way, too?
May 07 12:45:42 <quaid>	spoleeba: ok, so back to that question
May 07 12:46:41 <quaid>	spoleeba: I would say that, from my
perspective it is a presentation for paying EL users *and* ISV
partners *and* anyone who wants a package for EL where it isn't
available, and they are willing to do something about that.
May 07 12:47:13 <quaid>	the summary they will read in advance: "Learn
how Extra Packages for Enterprise Linux is more than a repository of
community-supported add-on software; it is a way to gain the
advantages of the open source process for software you produce and
need."
May 07 12:47:17 <smooge>	Ok meeting times 1700 is used in this
channel, but 1600 is free
May 07 12:47:35 <quaid>	spoleeba: so, with all that mix, I'm not sure
if we have told the audience we want that they should be there
May 07 12:47:41 <quaid>	I tried, but who knows how it will go?
May 07 12:47:44 *	Sparks (n=sparks at fedora/Sparks) has joined #fedora-meeting
May 07 12:48:00 <smooge>	quaid, nice summary
May 07 12:48:07 <quaid>	smooge: thx
May 07 12:48:37 <quaid>	I may hit ever vendor's booth when i get there
and try to drum up audience :)
May 07 12:48:49 <smooge>	how does 1600 look (0900 PST)
May 07 12:49:03 <spoleeba>	quaid, are there any fudcon related
handouts being produced for summit attendees?
May 07 12:49:09 <quaid>	aside from writing for the Magazine, EPEL is
the main thing on my mind for the Summit, might as well fill the time
well :)
May 07 12:49:33 <quaid>	spoleeba: I don't know, to be honest; I'm sure
there is something, though ...
May 07 12:49:53 <quaid>	smooge: I can do 1600 (0900 P_D_T)
May 07 12:50:03 <spoleeba>	quaid, would it make sense to put a blurb
in whatever is being printed up about epel..and specifically your
talk?
May 07 12:50:06 <quaid>	daylight savings switch was in March :)
May 07 12:50:10 <smooge>	duh. thanks
May 07 12:50:17 <quaid>	spoleeba: interesting point!
May 07 12:50:29 *	quaid sends email on that subject
May 07 12:50:31 <spoleeba>	quaid, dear god...you want me to do an 8 am meeting?
May 07 12:50:35 <smooge>	I am liking arizona better and better with
its time system (but not much else)
May 07 12:50:48 <spoleeba>	quaid, actually that might
conflict..robotics sig is trying to find a meeting time too
May 07 12:51:37 *	mdomsch has quit (Remote closed the connection)
May 07 12:52:21 <spoleeba>	quaid, ive no idea who would actually be
doing that sort of tree killing as part of fudcon however
May 07 12:53:23 *	agentunix has quit (Remote closed the connection)
May 07 12:53:46 <quaid>	spoleeba: that's not what I said; I said that
you said PST when it is in fact PDT right now, and it ain't my fault,
I hate daylight savings too
May 07 12:53:53 <quaid>	oh
May 07 12:53:59 <quaid>	sorry, you are in Pacific Ocean time
May 07 12:54:02 *	quaid was lost for a second
May 07 12:54:21 <smooge>	spoleeba, hmmm its open on the calender at
the moment. I am going to put out a meeting list. We will see what we
get. If people have conflicts we can work them out.
May 07 12:54:22 *	lmacken has quit ("leaving")
May 07 12:54:25 *	quaid mis-read his s<nick> for a second
May 07 12:54:27 <smooge>	my brain hurts
May 07 12:54:38 <quaid>	spoleeba: I'll find such tree killers
May 07 12:54:50 *	mdomsch
(n=Matt_Dom at cpe-70-124-62-55.austin.res.rr.com) has joined
#fedora-meeting
May 07 12:54:59 <smooge>	maybe we can get 100% alaska paper
May 07 12:55:17 <smooge>	ok meeting time is about over
May 07 12:55:54 <smooge>	we will try and organize a meeting next week
and see what can be done for getting both elections and data for quaid
together
May 07 12:58:30 <quaid>	where do I propose we rename "Fedora Users and
Developers Conference" to "Fedora Users and Contributors Conference"?
May 07 12:58:52 <smooge>	Konference for the KDE people
May 07 12:58:59 <quaid>	heh
May 07 12:59:18 <stickster>	um
May 07 12:59:52 <smooge>	sorry.. I think I blew our PG channel rating.
May 07 12:59:58 <smooge>	meeting has to end in 1
May 07 12:59:59 *	lmacken (n=lmacken at nat/redhat-us/x-1b00d318159be3f9)
has joined #fedora-meeting
May 07 13:00:10 <smooge>	so that the next group can talk
May 07 13:00:24 <quaid>	oops, I thought we were done
May 07 13:00:25 <spoleeba>	quaid, FECC ? im pretty sure thats an expletive
May 07 13:00:30 <quaid>	that wasn't in the recored, was it?
May 07 13:00:46 *	quaid bails, brb
May 07 13:01:06 *	smooge has changed the topic to: Channel is used by
various Fedora groups and committees for their regular meetings | Note
that meetings often get logged | For questions about using Fedora
please ask in #fedora | See
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/FedoraMeetingChannel for
meeting schedule


-- 
Stephen J Smoogen. -- BSD/GNU/Linux
How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed
in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice"