[Ambassadors] FAD EMEA (2007-11-23 - 2007-11-25)

[Gerold Kassube]

omg this is more and more a "flame" and this is my *personaly* last mail
in this issue ....

... the rest will hopefully discussed at a round table somewhere in a
hotel or elsewhere ...


Am Samstag, den 10.11.2007, 14:11 +0100 schrieb Thomas Canniot:
> Le Sat, 10 Nov 2007 10:26:18 +0100,
> Gerold Kassube <gerold at lugd.org> a écrit :
> 
> > Dear Mr. Tom and all others,
> > 
> > > Thanks Pierre-Yves for giving me the offlist answer to the question
> > > you made here.
> > > 
> > > I would first recommend everyone to use the mailing list for
> > > discussing this subject and avoid personal mails, so as everyone
> > > could get the right info at the right moment.
> > ^^
> > Great Mr. Tom,
> 
> Hey Gerold :) How are you doing ?
^^
real answer?
Bad, if I have to read your FIRST words regarding my private mail to
pingou ...

> 
> 
> > here you point out to answer to everyone and miscredit myself because
> > I answers pingou in private and tell *only him* that FP (named: Max
> > Spevack) is able to help and pays the rooms and breakfast ...
> > YOU personally answered Joergs demand to have you at the FAD (sended
> > to the ML as you requested) also in private;
> 
> Well, it's because I consider that some subjects are personal ones and
> that others are private ones. Considering the time and date of my
> arrival to Strasburg, I guess most ambassadors don't really mind about
> it at all. However, knowing how much the FAD would cost them may
> interest *all* the European ambassadors and not pingou alone.  Then
> responding to him personnaly, is a kind of a problem as it won't
> encourage people to go this FAD, as they don't have all the information
> at their disposal to organise their trip.
> 
> 
> > a few later than you
> > wrote this "Hey, we in France don't need a FAD; so why you stupid
> > other European need" ...
> 
> I never said such a thing and never insulted any other European
> Ambassadors. Maybe I'm not chatty enough to say how much I respect the
> work of all the Ambassadors, but you can't make me tell things I never
> wrote / said / thought.
^^
You're right saying that I "... can't make you tell things you never
wrote / said / thought ..."; ...
... But this is really exactly what I readed between the lines in your
mail.

> 
> 
> > It that the way you like to form national or regional Teams? 
> > 
> > > 
> > > Then according to what Pierre Yves told me, the FedoraProject
> > > offered ambassadors for the FAD the nights at the hotel, but can't
> > > invest in transportation. That's really disappointing, and we could
> > > really wonder how the FP consider the FAD : For this kind of
> > > European meeting, it is quite ununderstandable that the hotel is
> > > offered. I would have offered the transport (train, car, anyway you
> > > want as long as you can justify it and say before the FAD : "i'm
> > > going there and I expect to spend XXX€ there because of the
> > > train"). In fact, in Europe and anywhere, what is very expensive
> > > for people is transportation and not sleeping in a hotel.
> > ^^
> > What is fair to everyone? The one like to arrange flying, the other
> > preferes traveling by train or by car ... The other one likes to
> > travel with others so the way is very, very different how to "arrive"
> > at the FAD ....
> > ... and this also depends to the costs!
> 
> I understand this is very subjective, and I agree with you that others
> could have prefered the other reimbursement.
> 
> 
> > BUT it is always and for everybody the same price for a room to stay
> > over night.
> > And from my point of view it is more important to have a full day of
> > work face-to-face instead of 200 IRC meetings or TelCo-Calls.
> 
> Of course it is more efficient and I know it don't worry.
^^
Thank you

> 
> 
> > To your complain "Why at this f*** guy near to Basel in sh*** Germany
> > [remark: thats what personally I understand what you're saying
> > everytime];
> 
> Well then you understand it in a very subjective way. I'm not that
> vulgar in real life :)
^^
I think so; as I saw you the first time at the FOSDEM in person; I
believe in you, that you'll never say such words somewhere in public :-)

> 
> 
> > It it not my primary duty to organise FADs or fairs near
> > to my "home" it is because I know a little bit around here ...
> > ... and unfortunately it is also "central" in Europe. We have here
> > France, Switzerland, Germany as Countrys reachable in 20 minutes! We
> > have an airport (Basel, Moulhouse, Freiburg), we have a big railway
> > station BAsel and last but not least we have a high concentration of
> > (yes I have to say it) German Ambassadors around 200 - 300 kms like
> > Robert, Jens, Joerg, Florian, Jan, Stefan, Andreas; don't forget ALL
> > Swiss Ambassadors Fabian, Sandro and the Austrian like Claus or
> > Oliver ...
> 
> OK then you win here. I personaly don't know the local geography near
> Basel and it remains quite difficult to know where ambassadors are
> precisely located. In France, we know where is everybody becasue it is
> people we chat with everybody. And I agree as well that if I tell you
> that Johan is from Douai and Armel from Nantes, it won't ring a bell to
> you either.
> One of our lackness in France is that most ambassadors are from the
> West cost or from the North of France.
^^
doesn't matter; the highest concentration of Germany is afaik in the
south ...

> 
> 
> > FAD is for this people who will attend and are able to help; it is a
> > "planing and organisational meeting" for the Ambassadors who are
> > willing to help covering EUROPEAN fairs, Events or whatelse.
> > Everybody is invited and who is near or far from us to attend and
> > bring his issues to us as a TEAM!
> > In this Gremium we decide in which events we want to push our power to
> > bring fedora forward ...
> > By gosh, Mr. Tom ...
> > this is not my private meeting, it is a "come together from EMEAs
> > Ambassadors"!
> 
> I know :) Then, as it is a series of European meeting, why not have the
> organisation of the FAD turning each year ? This year it is in Basel,
> next year it could be in Italy, in Poland, in France, in any other
> country where people are ready to organise it. That could be
> outstanding and even fairer for everybody.
^^
Please and once again; have a look in the WIKI at
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FAD/ to see the intention of a FAD; as you
can see the Asia have understand and will have their first FAD also ...
It's up to everybody in every region to invite, organise and ask
somebody *official* for help or whatever you need to organise ...

> 
> 
> > > What do we really need to run a fad ? This question could be
> > > rephrased by : What do we need for people to talk in front of each
> > > other, at the same time and place. The answer is very simple : a
> > > table and chairs ! And we found them in most hotels anywhere in
> > > Europe. Because what is important is that people could move, to
> > > meet and discuss. Not that the thickness of the matress they would
> > > sleep on :). You can always take a low cost hotel on you own or ask
> > > for some friend / family / local ambassadors to sleep at their
> > > homes, for free or very little money.
> > ^^
> > see above!
> > 
> > > 
> > > What I want to say is that : 
> > > 1. We don't need such a luxurious hotel to run the FAD
> > ^^
> > correct, you can come saturday in the morning (mostly we start WORKING
> > at 9 or 10 a.m.) and you can leave after we're ready with work at 10
> > or 11 p.m.; no doubt about ...
> > But the other attendees want to have to oppurtunity to see and feel
> > other Ambassadors, their thinking and "tick-ing" and we want to have
> > also fun, discussion face-to-face
> 
> That I will be happy to do as well :)
> 
> 
> > > 2. All we need is a table and chairs (most *normal* hotels have
> > > them)
> > ^^
> > Yes, maybe we are for the "work" somewhere else; at the university of
> > Basel, in my private house, in a dedicated meeting room; as I told
> > somewhere .... :-)
> > 
> > > 3. We need to be reimbursed what *is* expensive : transportation,
> > > and not the hotel
> > ^^
> > could never be handled and is fair to everybody. If you need to be
> > there or it is important for you to attend and you can't pay for
> > whatever; (this is for all Ambassadors the same!) ASK Max or the
> > project to help!
> 
> Why not actually, but asking for money in a private way is something
> that makes me very ill at ease, and this is not really the best way I
> would like the FedoraProject be towards Ambassadors (i.e. a cash
> machine to pay for people travels). And as Max is already paying for
> the hotel, I personaly think that HIS help is not something we should
> abuse of.
^^
Everything you'll do for FP is your own thing; spending money,
contribute whatever you like, beeing translator, beeing packager,
working in the infrastructure team or whatever (I'm really sure we have
douzends of activity field where everybody finds his own way.
And to be honest; participation at the FAD which I organize is not
mandantory BUT ...
... the history of last years shows us (all) in a direct way that is was
much important to organise things month before and NOT in the last
minute of an event; we practice marketing; we need a budget for our /
Fedoras (and last but not least: RED HAT) events which we like to
cover ...
And we as gremium decide and announce to the Project Leader (named: Max
Spevack) what we need next year for money, where we need him in person
and once again to be honest: WE decides at the FAS in December '06 that
we need Max at FOSDEM. And he made it happen to be there and the event
FOSEDM was really good representated by the EUROPEAN Team and NOT only
from a local Team.
Sorry for that example but it was the best to show, what we can reach
with that goal.

AND ...
everybody who decides to follow (in this case) my invitation for FAD
(once again beside my home), didn't know that I can have a goodie for
him, paying with the Projects help the Rooms. Everybody who registers
was in the meaning that HE has to pay for all, and anyhow he himself as
a free man (or wife) decided: 

I am FEDORA

And I have to attend the meeting there near Basel; because it is
important for me, for the project, for us as Team ...
(don't know all personal likeness of every person)

But everybody did! I don't tell everybody: YOU have to come because when
you will not attend you're ..... (decide what you want).

> 
> 
> > > 4. Some hotels (low cost and high cost ones) could / should have
> > > been suggested instead of imposing one to the group, and imposing
> > > them to pay for something they can hardly decide of the price.
> > ^^
> > It is up-to-everybody to organise an event (like this) and bring it to
> > everyones attention to make it better ...
> 
> Great then, we should maybe organise a vote on the list or with the
> Fedora account system so as to vote for a next organising country
> (of course, the last country in the list wouldn't be allowed to run for
> the organisation the year after - or more)
^^
Please excuse; a vote for what?
Please remember, in EMEA we have only ONE COUNTRY organised Group; all
others are in their thinking and behavior and ahndling global or reginal
(EMEA) oriented; but if you like to ...

> 
>  
> > > Finally, I would like to remind everybody that the FedoraProject is
> > > composed of many profiles and I would retain two of them : employees
> > > and students. Thanks to them, you can already understand that they
> > > don't have the same revenue and the same way of life.
> > > Thus, I have to announce you that I don't have 250€ to spend for
> > > Fedora.
> > ^^
> > It is better not to have a look back what I personally spend out of my
> > pocket to "help" Fedora with my small support I can give but I'm sure
> > if I count all and every pence and I ask Max to pay he'll kick me
> > out. And I'm also sure that there are many more who spend more of
> > their live, money and power to support Fedora with more than your 250
> > EUR ... But if you need it to attend let me know, I'm also able to
> > help and ask the community to collect the money for you ...
> 
> Well, I understand that 250€ could represent a little for you,
^^
OK, if you want to discuss this really private issue:
I am fortytwo years old; I am married since 14 years; I have three
children aged 14, 12 and 10; I have a dog, two cars, a house and many,
many, many outstanding debts at my bank.
Fortunately I have a job, be healthy (more or less) and have every year
a two week hoiliday (together with my parents because of cost
sharing) ...
To fly to Berlin (for Linuxtag); to travel to Bruxelles (for FOSDEM); to
travel to Stuttgart (for meeting with other Ambassadors) or have
telephone calls costs me more than sometimes my family is knowing and by
gosh ...
Fedora is (for me) much more than a OS 
Fedora is independance, is living free of patents and it is a kind of
philosophy ...

>  but this
> is once again very subjective as it depends on what you earn every
> month! I'm a student, I don't work!
^^
in the time I studied; I have to pay alone for my life; don't know how
you can live without "working" ...
Me had to; many, many, many years ago ....

>  I can afford the trip, but just
> understand that Fedora is not my priority in my monthly budget! 
> And about asking the community to pay for my trip, please understand
> that I'm not waiting for money from the comunity, but for contribution
> that would be much more helpful for the FP.
^^
If the Ambassador don't organise events or know each other and meet only
on events I'm sure the events were sometimes a big desaster. Have a look
at the biggest Event in Europe LINUXTAG in Germany; more that 10.000
visitors ...
will you organise programm and the fair by IRC; all things which has to
be prepared (Flyers, Banners, swag etc.)???
If you have to be part of the Team, OUR European Team will help also YOU
if you need support., doesn't matter in which issue. Ask our indish
friend kushal das how we supported him ...

> 
> 
> > > Once again, I am very disappointed, because one again, I will miss
> > > the fad.
> > Fortunately you can attend. It is a pleasure for all of us to have the
> > President of the french people at the table
> 
> And understand that it will be a pleasure for me to be one of yours.
^^
Than please act as one ...

> 
> 
> > Finaly: I am pissed of from this mail and it hurts me personally much
> > and I feel very unsatisfied when I read such words. I only want to
> > bring the community, the project and last but not least Fedora
> > forward. And one person begins to ask basicly question because he
> > don't understand what we have practiced some times before and begun to
> > live ...
> 
> I understand your reaction and I don't criticize your involvement in
> any way. I would just have asked more the other Ambassadors about "the
> FAD of their dreams".
^^
Mr. Tom; everybody who knows me more than a minute knows that I am a
person who wants every time the best for every one and I am also a
person who is "fighting" for others ...
Please believe me; you'll never get all persons under one hat :-(

>  But once again, it is not a reproach you have to
> take for yourself, it is just a way of organizing things that you
> brought to us silently because nobody was ready or chatty enough to
> say what he thougt about this.
^^
EVERY Ambassador who was listed in the Fedora System at 2007-09-15!
That's the date I informed the ML of organizing again a FAD in
November ...
On September 16th, every person listed in the ML (with an E-Mail
address) has got a private E-Mail with his invitation in English and
German (Sorry my french is more than 20 years gone) ...
So I can't accept here: ... brought to us silent ...
I was loud enough; and that more as once!

>  We CAN organise things in another way
> and I would be very glad to help you organise them.
> As there were very tiny debates about how to run a FAD, then I'm glad we
> can have this discussion with you.
^^
Don't talk; do it ...

> 
> 
> > I have now tried to organize several FADs in Rheinfelden, in Berlin
> > (is approx. 800 km away); Linuxtag the last two years and much more
> > and you ask why? Because nobody other will do so or is able to do;
> 
> Do you want to bet ? ;)
^^
You'll loose! I had several conversations with Ambassadors in the area
of Stuttgart; but nobody has had the time to organize something; so I
did it myself ...

> 
> 
> > I  don't know but from my point of view it is much important to do
> > so; and all attendees tell me that this is important what I try to
> > do; so either you like nor you dislike. If you like attend if you
> > dislike stay at home.
> 
> see above !
> 
> > 
> > Just my five cents
> > 
> > Gerold
> 
> And my five cents as well :)
> 
> Thomas
^^
So with my last 5 there are already 15 cents inside. Do you need them
for traveling?

Gerold

PS: this is really my last "message" to that issue; promised!
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