[Ambassadors] Re: Replies to Certification Projects

[scott mcbrien]

Abhradip,
Thank you for the additional information about what you're trying to
accomplish, but I think you'll run into some problems trying to accomplish
it.

(1)  Certifications are useful to employers because they provide a
credential from a vendor or organization which indicates that a certificate
holder has the knowledge or skills for a product or job role.  If one can
get a Fedora Contributor Certificate for such varied things as writing
documentation or holding Fedora Events, or writing code on OSS projects,
etc.  What is the credential that having the certificate passes to the
perspective employer?  How does an employer who is trying to hire a python
developer know that this CV that has a Fedora certificate has worked on
python with Fedora or written some articles on the wiki?  It sounds like
what you're creating isn't a certificate, defined by ISO-17024,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_17024

(2)  Certifications don't get jobs.  If you have hiring managers hiring
employees without an interview, or technical evaluation, but soley on their
list of certifications, then you haven't experienced the joy of hiring a
"paper" <some certification>.  Someone who holds a credential, but who has
no knowledge about the subject that the certificate certifies.  One of the
more prolific examples is the paper MCSE, a candidate who memorizes a bunch
of answers to the Microsoft multiple choice tests, but who has never
actually administered a machine.

Instead of a certification, one could list "Fedora Project Contributor" on
their CV and be prepared to answer questions, or volunteer information
during the interview.  As someone who has worked as a hiring manager, I'm
far more impressed by being able to discuss someone's programming project,
in detail, and the interviewee's experience in that project than the fact
that they have a Net+ certification.  As an added bonus, after working on a
project, the candidate has EXPERIENCE in the field that they are now
interviewing, which is by far more valuable than a certificate.

(3)  Administration.  Who is going to create and maintain these
certificates?  How will they be logged, queried, and managed?  How can an
employer verify that this candidate has earned a certificate?  How is
"participation" in the Fedora Project measured, who makes the determination
that the participation is or is not worthy of a certificate?  Or, is this
certificate just something that people with a fas account can create, in
which case the certification proves that someone is technically
knowledgeable about the Fedora Project enough to create a fas account...

I think that ultimately you're wanting to create a document that identifies
your students as Fedora Project Members, not a certificate.  A certificate
would have such broad scope that it would end up being meaningless and just
another line item on a CV, which perspective employers would ignore.

-Scott

On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 7:47 AM, Abhradip Mukherjee <
abhradipmukherjee at gmail.com> wrote:

>  @John and @any0n3
>
> >I really still have no idea  what you are trying to convey with "certified
> by fedoraproject." Do
> >you want the students certified? Do you want the project certified? In
> either case, what does the >certification imply?
> I want to get the contributors certified on a paper which they can show to
> their potential employers and say that "look, I have done project with these
> guys and they certified me as a good contributor to their project".
>
> @David
>
> >I'd really recommend that you talk to Chris Tyler who teaches at
>
> >Seneca College.
>
> >http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/TeachingOpenSource_Mailing_List
>
> Thanks a lot for such a nice constructive reply. Right now I am working on
> that. Will send a mail to Tyler soon.
>
> >The long and short of it is that you really need the instructors to be
>
> >involved and grok both F/LOSS and Fedora if you want to be successful
>
> >in using Fedora projects for coursework. Of course the benefit to the
>
> >students is huge.
>
> Thanks again! I am careful about such issues.
>
> 
>
> >You could either opt for general linux certifications with local LPIC
> >centers.If your goal is to involve Red Hat certifications you cannot use
> any Fedora
> >branding iirc.
>
> I am specifically looking to start projects that will contribute to FOSS
> and Fedora and upon completion of such project contributors will be
> certified by fedora project as contributors to that particular project.
>
> @Jos? Roberto Colombo Junior <joseroberto at ieee.org>
>
> >Yes ... I liked your idea.
>
> Thanks!
>
> >For sample, it's a project that will do what?
>
> The projects can range from a documentation on how to play popular games on
> PlayOnLinux, to contribute simple install scripts to
> http://install.passion4freedom.07x.net to improvising on default
> installation of Fedora upto anything that is feasible. Basically we will
> launch a Brainstorm platform to gather ideas
>
> >Or, what do I need?
>
> I need assurance from Fedora that the works will be acknowledged and each
> contributor will get an "offline copy of this acknowledgement in form of a
> certificate".
>
> >And, what are my goals?
>
> I am interested in bringing more people (atleast from technological
> colleges) to the development of GNU/Linux. I have often seen students saying
> things like "why this is like this, can't they make it easier to use". In
> case of FOSS they can change it but they dont do it. Because of two main
> reasons.
>
> 1) They dont know how to do it. When they try to get into such things, they
> get afraid by thinking that they have to study it all of their own and
> there's no one around to help. Why not take some initiatives to encourage
> and help such students? A brand name like Fedora can do a lot in such cases.
>
> 2) Under the immense pressure of their syllabus, they can not take out time
> to contribute in a project that will neither give them any financial benefit
> nor will do any benefit to their resume. At the end of the day everyone
> needs to earn. Free software is a matter of freedom, free as in free speech
> not free beer. But the message they get from such situations is that there's
> no profit in developing free software. Which is wrong. If we can not finance
> them for their work, why not try the second alternative? They think we are
> trying to "use" them. Why not give them something back (in real)?
>
> Creating such a development oriented environment is my goal.
>
> >I am very happy with your idea!
>
> Thanks a lot for helping me write a to the point reply.
>
> >By what I see, he wants a certification, like a square to put on the wall,
>
> >is it? Because this way, his students will be motived too much!
>
> You understood the idea right.
>
> >Sound good. This will motivate more contributors to Fedora project. As
> >this gives something the contributor is proud of and as a substance of
> >their work and participation.
> And you understood it the best.
>
>
> >Best Regards,
> >Jason
>
> Wish you lived as my neighbour.
>
> @Kushal
>
> >I don't think certificates are any good to attract students who
> >will/"want to" become contributors.
>
> I beg to differ. We need more contributors and we need more people to
> educate about the ideologies of FOSS. OSS development model concentrates on
> collaboration and is not a model that says "You wont get anything in return
> because it is Free Software".
>
> >Looking someone's own name in the project's website or in the Author's
> page gives much more >confidence and "feel good" attitude than any
> certificate.
>
> Nothing as offline copy to show to the employer at the time of interview.
> They wont "feel good" then. Also let me inform you about campaigns by
> non-free software companies. They list their names with photos, pay them
> wages, invite to seminars and give food, sponsor their events. Which one
> will make them "feel good" more? I am taking a better approach in terms of
> ethics. I am bringing them to our movement with projects that gives
> something in return to them apart from the knowledge. And then make them
> realize why FOSS is necessary in terms of philosophy and development of
> computer technology. Isn't it a better approach?
>
> >All the developers we know , we know by their work, not by looking into
> some certificate.
>
> True. Even our certifications will not matter to them much after they start
> regular contribution to FOSS. But to initiate the process, certification can
> be a magic wind.
>
>
> >I know personally how the students run behind a printed copy
> of certificate,
>
> Thanks for supporting my line above.
>
> >but bringing the same attitude into FOSS development is not going to help
> us.
> What about RHCT, RHCE, SCJP etc? Aren't they based on FOSS technologies?
> This time its just that instead of going with an exam I am talking about
> contributing to a project. This will definitely help us. Also please clarify
> why do you think it wont help us only if we issue certificates keeping other
> things like awareness among the programmers intact? We wont take students
> instantly into the project. At first they have to work with us and after we
> are sure about his Passion4Freedom (http://groups.google.com/group/tp4f)
> we will include them in our projects.
>
> @ Shakthi Kannan
>
> >Here in India (West Bengal) we have a strong
> >base. There are several students ready to jump into development fields.
> They
> >want to contribute and work for fedoraproject and GNU/Linux development at
> >large.
>  >So, if (that) already exists why do we need certification?
> Because when they get to know that for doing the development they wont get
> any money / any certificate, the best brains ( the ones who can easily get
> money for their work from other offtime jobs) and the competent  students
> (who can easily do a project in some institutions by paying some money and
> can get a certificate) goes away. The ones who understands the true meaning
> of FOSS at that moment of time stays with us. But I can guarantee if those
> other guys have joined us then, someday later they would have also become
> FOSS followers as through the activities of the movement we would have
> successfully conveyed the message to them. They can pay for certificates.
> But wont go for something which is cheap and gives nothing in return except
> listing on websites. What will they have in hand to show their mother, who
> might not know anything about websites and therefore does not understand the
> importance. (She would have been more happy to see her son's face on a
> not-so-famous local newspaper, simply because then she would have had
> something to take in hand, go to her neighbor and show off). What will they
> show to an employer who wont agree to go up and check on the website whether
> the student sitting in front has a listing on the website or not. He would
> pick the next guy who has a well known certification in hand.
>
>
> >The problem with certification is that it is sometimes projected
> >differently that people join in _just_ for the certification,
>
> and
> >In this process, people fail to understand FOSS development models,
>
> >iterative learning processes, curiosity and need to experiment, learn,
> >community participation et. al.
>
> and
>
> >One needs to give the true picture of community participation,
> >Free/Open Source development, than have short *marketing offers*.
>
> As I mentioned, we wont take anybody in, _just_ for the certification. It
> will be like if you understand FOSS ideologies well, and if you are willing
> to learn through projects we will give you an opportunity to work and get
> certificate of appreciation upon quality contribution.
>
> >and not that they love Free/Open Source Software, and end up demanding
> >questions like: "I am certified, but, where can I now get a job?"
> Have you ever heard somebody asking the same question to any training
> institutions who give away random certifications to any guy with a fat
> wallet?
>
> We will issue certifications on FOSS technologies if you are worthy of it,
> that's it. If you think you want it, come and join us. If you dont think you
> want it we still ask you to join us. If you dont want to join us, just hear
> to our appeal at least with care and then decide. If you are determined to
> not to join us, then "Thank you and doors are always open for you to come
> back and join us". What's wrong in such an approach?
>
> >While this might bring lot of certified people in a short-term, it
> >doesn't help in catering to the individual in the long run.
> What will cater to the individual in the long run is the experience of
> working in a FOSS project and understanding the philosophies of FOSS
> movement.
>
> >Just my thoughts,
> Thanks for sharing and making me explain in detail.
>
> @Sankarshan
>
> >Instead of thinking of starting a project to "certify" the interested
> participants, it would perhaps >be a good idea to look at : <
> http://kushaldas.in/tmp/summer_training-small.png> And, as >always,there
> is #fedora-india for them to land up and get initial hand-holding/coaching.
>
> Thanks for guiding to such a wonderful initiative by dgplug. But my goal is
> a bit different. It's not "training for a particular period of time on
> pre-decided topics". I am looking for a platform to collaborate on projects
> anywhere anytime for anybody interested in FOSS development. Projects will
> go on, day after day new new students will come and join. It is not summer
> training.
>
> >The way I read your mail, you are talking about two specific points :
>
> >[1] getting students to contribute and participate [2] assessing the
>
> >feasibility of obtaining for them a "certificate" which would be
>
> >accepted and relevant in their academic life. I'd suggest that we
>
> >focus a bit more on [1] first so that we have good participants.
>
> I am focused on point[1] as you can perhaps see from my detailed reply. Now
> it is time for me to concentrate more on point[2] as I want those brains too
> who might not be much interested in doing a project for obtaining no money/
> no certifications.Thank you for replying Sankarshanda.
>
> Please help me on this issue and make this thing happen. It is a necessity
> of the community according to my opinion.
>
> With hope still alive,
>
> -ADM
>
> Fedora Ambassador, WB, India
>
>
> --
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>
>
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