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Re: A new notification theme

Am Dienstag, den 29.09.2009, 11:13 -0400 schrieb William Jon McCann: 
> Hi Christoph,
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 9:00 AM, Christoph Wickert
> <christoph wickert googlemail com> wrote:
> > Am Donnerstag, den 24.09.2009, 20:48 -0400 schrieb Matthias Clasen:
> >> Tomorrows rawhide will have a new notification theme for Gnome.
> >>
> >> The aim of this new theme is to integrate well with the theming in the
> >> rest of the desktop (which wasn't really the case with nodoka bubbles
> >> and a clearlooks desktop).
> >
> > After I have seen them now I can say I think they are horrible. We could
> > really argue if the Nodoka bubbles matched the rest of Nodoka, but this
> > definitely matches even less.
> >
> > I think such changes shouldn't been done as a solo action without
> > previous notice. Has the design team been aked about this? (No, Matthias
> > and Jon, you are *not* the design team, sorry). Or people from the
> > desktop SIG? How about other contributors?
> >
> > IMHO this change is also very ungrateful to Martin, who does an amazing
> > job with the Nodoka theme.
> So, this message is clearly a troll but I'd like to respond to a few
> things anyway.
> If you have any substantial and specific critique of the theme I'd
> love to hear it.

Hi Jon,

I think I already lined out my critique in the previous post. In case
you didn't get it: 
      * The new theme doesn't fit to the rest of the desktop. 
      * Fedora is and always has been blue. Blue is our brand. While
        yellow is the complementary color to blue, what exactly is the
        relation from black to blue? 
      * Changes like this shouldn't happen so late in the development
      * Changes like this shouldn't happen without asking for feedback
        *first*. Pushing a change and asking afterwards is not the way. 
      * It's not the first time Matthias makes/wants to make a change
        like this in a solo action. This is not how a community project

Please be so kind as to reply to these points one by one instead of just
calling it trolling.

> We are the people involved in designing the desktop product.  Anyone
> may contribute to that but there is no magic design team that needs to
> be consulted before we make changes.  

If you really think so, I'm sorry for you, because you still have not
understood that Fedora is a community project. The days where Red Hat
employees were to decide everything inside of RH (hopefully) are over.

> There are people that I think
> are very good at what they do and I consult them as much as possible.
> In this case in particular, there were a few different people I
> consulted.  But if you wish to put labels on things - yes we are the
> desktop design team.

Would you name some names please?

I was talking of the design team which is lead by Mairin. and who is
doing much more than just wallpapers. These people are not necessarily
developers, but brilliant artists. Not asking them for assistance is
missing a great opportunity.

Or think of the desktop SIG. How many of it's 12 members were actually
involved in this decision?

> I have no idea why anyone would think that we're ungrateful to Martin
> because of this.  I'm pretty sure Martin wouldn't think this either.

Then please take a look at Martin's reply to Matthias or the recent
"Default theme for F12" thread. Reading between the lines you can
clearly see Martins disappointment when he asks "I have been wondering
what "we" stands for here... The discussion seems to mostly happen

> However, he probably doesn't prefer the new design over his - why
> would he?  There are going to be differences in opinion like this.  It
> is only natural.  He has been notably constructive in his messages so
> far.
> At the end of the day we need to stand up and take responsibility for
> the end result.  To make sure things fit together coherently.   

Which IMO simply is not the case. According to the comments on Paul's
blog article I'm not the only one who thinks so.

> That
> doesn't mean that these decisions occur in a vacuum or that we don't
> need a heck of a lot of help.  Nothing is ever final.

Ok, why push something a day before development freeze without asking
for feedback first then? Smells a little funny to me. 

> For now, Matthias and I have assumed the (often difficult)
> responsibility of trying to fit all our shit together in a way that
> doesn't totally suck.  We *do* need your help to do that.  

Again: If you need help or feedback, why not ask? And why not ask

> But that
> doesn't mean that we're going to avoid making the often difficult
> choices - it is critical that we do.
> So, let's try to keep focus on what we are all trying to achieve here.
>  By the way have you tried the latest Ubuntu nightly? It isn't half
> bad.  Snow Leopard?  Doesn't suck.  Windows 7 - yeah I could use that.

I don't get what you are trying to tell me with this. We are not Ubuntu,
we are not MacOS or Window ether. We are Fedora, a project "maintained
and driven by the community and sponsored by Red Hat." Or is the wiki

> Jon


P.S.: I have CC'ed Max. Call me a squealer, but I think your attitude
towards the involvement of the community is something that IMO really
should be discussed.

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