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Re: rpm groups and fedora: a modest proposal

On Wed, 26 May 2004 10:49:39 -0400, Brad Smith <brads redhat com> wrote:
> But now it's installed. So suppose I'm cleaning up my system and I run
> system-config-packages and go looking through the games to see what I'm
> not using anymore. Or suppose I'm just a user on the system and I'm
> using some other tool just to see what all is installed. I would expect
> foo to show up under games, but if it was just downloaded from the web
> and the various *.xml files are the only sources for grouping
> information it's not. Best-case scenario it goes into an ugly "Other"
> category. Worst-case it's ignored.

Now here we get into the concept of what it means to actually manage
packages...and package collections.  I was hoping the discussion would
have gotten to this point sooner.....i've been waiting to beat up this
point of view.

I don't think its wise to have a tool treat one-off package installs
that have to be installed by hand and can not have updates retrieved
in the same way it treats packages that are managed in collections
that don't have to be installed by hand and can be updated via methods
known by the management tool entity.

I think its absolutely important that people KNOW which packages
listed there are managed and which packages are local one-off
installs.  I expect symmetry in tool operation. for packages managed
in repos...or from install media that can be registered with the
management tool I can use the management tool to
install/upgrade/remove in a sensible collective way.

For packages that i download by hand...and install by hand...i expect
the tool to go out of its way to notify me that these packages are
considered EXTRA_ORDINARY. I think its very unwise for one off
packages to be grouped in the same way that managed packages(install
media or online repos) because there isn't an equitable and symmetric
way to get things like updates for those packages. It needs to be
obvious to the user that the package management tool can not update
those one-off packages in a sensible way and further manual
intervention is needed to keep things shipshape.

> So there is a need for grouping info even for "standalone" packages
> because once they are installed they become part of a group of packages,
> effective management of which is very important.

Effective management is important... one-offs can not be effectively
managed..the management tool does not know how to update them or
install them via group operations...as such one-offs need to be held
outside standad listings to make that difference obvious.

-jef"personal posting limit vastly exceeded on this thread...going
into lurk mode on the list to compensate"spaleta

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