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Re: Fedora Freedom and linux-libre

Hans de Goede wrote:
jeff wrote:
Hans de Goede wrote:
Really, arguing that Fedora's stance is inconsistent, while in reality yours is doesn't gain you much respect. Either:

1) all firmware is software and must be free in which case support for evil hardware which comes with the firmware embedded must be removed from linux-libre!

No, because the goal of linux-libre is to have a kernel which doesn't distribute non-free software.

Oh, but promoting the usage and buying of devices which contain non-free firmware by supporting those is ok,

When have I ever done that??? You're just putting words in my mouth.

because it isn't non-free firmware that is evil. It is the distributing of non-free firmware that is evil. Yes a very consistent and logical pov for which I applaud you!

I have never used the word evil wrt software. Again, you are putting words in my mouth.

But not distributing non-free software is definitely a goal. It is also the supposed mission of Fedora.

Basicly the message you are sending is: people please by devices with firmware in rom, preferably otp rom, because then certainly there is no evil.

That's the message I'm sending?>?!? Again, you're just putting words in my mouth. I've never said anything of the sort.

Not being able to ever change the firmware is good, because as long as firmware never gets distributed separately from the hardware, we can pretend its not there and live our ignorance is bliss lifes thinking that we are in the all software in my house is free utopia. Because if I cannot see it it isn't there.

Uh, actually, I don't think that way at all. Again, you are just making things up that you say I am thinking. For one, I know I'd *love* to remove the non-free BIOS from my Eee, for example (and willing to pay developers to do that).

You're just making shit up.

Really that I didn't think of this before, it is so brilliant! I guess I should do away with all my PC's and instead switch to an internet appliance device, because then I no longer have to worry about whether I have any non-free software at all. Certainly if I don't need to install the software myself it isn't there at all then.

We're talking about


not about the hardware people already have.

2) all firmware is considered part of the hardware, independend of the distribution mechanism of that firmware (the Fedora pov).

---> No, the difference is Fedora is *DISTRIBUTING* the non-free bits. <---

So the goal of linux-libre is to not distribute non-free software. Do you ever buy a PC / laptop?


If so you're involved in a transaction which almost certainly involves the distribution of non-free firmware. Worse, not only are you involved in such a transaction, you are _paying_ for the system of which the non-free firmware is an integral part and thus you are paying for non-free firmware, thereby promoting the production of non-free firmware.

Yes, and that sucks. And stallman had to originally write emacs on SunOS or whatever he used. It doesn't mean we should stop trying to make things free.

Do you ever sell any of you PC hardware (motherboard, latop, printer) second hand and / or give it away to friends / family, then you are *DISTRIBUTING* non-free firmware. Really, they should put you in prison for that!


Please stop being so hypocritical.

I'm not being hypocritical.

Putting it simply there are 2 possible stances on non-free firmware:

Only 2?

1) Its evil

Well, this is wrong from the start because I don't even believe in evil. Anyway.

and as such should be erradicated, therefor I will not buy or use
   any devices with it. Nor will I add support for any devices containing
   non-free firmware to my Free operating system

I see it more like RMS originally writing emacs on a proprietary system. Though removing devices that *only* run with proprietary firmware may be a possibility, though many devices run fine without the firmware (for example, the tg3 will run without the firmware that's in the kernel).

2) Its evil, but allas it is here, so although we are not in favor it we
   condone it.

3) non-free software sucks and we should do our best to not distribute it.

But you're not *condoning* it you're ***DISTRIBUTING*** it.

The its evil, but ok as long as not distributed vision is just plain hypocritical, so you are happy *USING* it, and passing device which contain it along to friends / family, but distributing it in a way where it is not hidden inside a device is not OK?

But I'm not claiming that is free software if I hand someone a macbook or whatever. I'm also not happy if there is non-free software in there (but i'd just install free software on there).

I think the "not OK" part comes in when you say that you are distributing free/open software when you aren't and you know it.

Anyways this will be my last mail in this thread, I cannot argue against so much hypocrisy and bend around corners logic.

So much hypocrisy? You just put tons of words in my mouth that I've never said. Pfft.


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