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Re: Fedora Freedom and linux-libre

David Woodhouse wrote:

Do do have an exact definition of what is not permitted?
I pasted a precise definition of 'collective work' already, didn't I?
That is unrelated to the question.

No, it is the answer to your question. You asked what is not permitted.

And you are ignoring the explicit permission for aggregation.

What's not permitted is distribution of a collective work including the
GPL'd Program, where the other independent and separate parts of that
work are not also available under the terms of the GPL.

Except when the separate parts are identifiable and not derived.

The very definition of 'collective work' is that it is an aggregation of
other independent and separate works.
And aggregations are explicitly permitted which makes that discussion irrelevant.

Oh dear, you're back to that again. I thought we'd dealt with that, but
we seem to be going round in circles. I'll try again, one last time:

All collective work is aggregation.

But only certain ones are permitted.

The GPL explicitly states that it covers collective work.

With a specific exception for aggregations.

The GPL explicitly talks about extending the permissions of the GPL to
works which are independent and separate works in themselves, when those
works are included in a collective work.

Thus, it is not credible to believe that the 'mere aggregation on a
volume of a storage or distribution medium' exception is intended to
cover _all_ aggregation. That would mean that the GPL is just setting up
all these conditions, only to immediately turn round and say "oh,
actually I didn't really mean it" in the next paragraph.

No, it is not credible to believe that they explicitly say that aggregating separate works together is permitted but they don't actually permit it. And it's particularly not credible to believe that the copyright holders believe the inclusion of these parts are a copyright violation for fairly obvious reasons.

If you're willing to make that claim in public then I don't really know
why I'm bothering to talk to you. Do you have no shame?

No, I just can't ignore what the COPYING file actually says.

As you know, the GPL makes an exception for 'mere aggregation on a
volume of a storage or distribution medium'. There is some scope for
debate on precisely what is covered by that exception, but not a huge
So the relevant discussion should be about whether there is a person that can identify the separate parts.

No, that's another complete non-sequitur from you. Where on earth did
_that_ idea come from?

You apparently didn't read the distinguishing factor:
"If identifiable sections of that work are not derived from the Program ..."

If you can identify the separate short stories in an anthology, do you
think that somehow means that it isn't a collective work?

"Collective work" is not a relevant issue. The question is whether or not it is a permitted aggregation, and the way to determine this is spelled out fairly clearly. I wouldn't expect everyone to be experts on both kernel code and firmware, so the first step is to find some who can identify the sections (like maybe the person who put them there...) and make a determination if they were "derived from the Program". We already know they are separate, since they get dumped into separate hardware.

Actually, don't bother to answer that. Because I'm sure you'll just come
back with another complete non-sequitur rather than a real answer.

Quoting the text of the GPL is not a non-sequitur and should hardly be necessary at this point in the conversation.

Let's just give up, eh?

Unless you want to talk about the actual GPL instead of ignoring part of it. There is room for interpretation about determining separate sections that are independent works, but so far you haven't addressed that and it is the only relevant question.

  Les Mikesell
   lesmikesell gmail com

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