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Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26

Ricky Zhou wrote:

> On 2009-06-29 01:13:07 AM, Kevin Kofler wrote:
>> The thing is, that's exactly the type of design GNOME is using and KDE is
>> rejecting, so you will never get KDE people to approve of this. And thus
>> following that policy makes our download page look biased and uninviting
>> to KDE users.
> Sorry, but even if presenting one default, unconfusing choice to new
> users that have absolutely no idea what they want is considered biased
> against what KDE users approve of, then there is no way to make you
> happy while sticking to the goal of that page.  We make sure clueless
> users can get the default choice first - people that know what they want
> can live with an extra click.  If KDE were the default choice for these
> new clueless users, it would certainly also be the single default choice
> on the front get-fedora page.

Well, if KDE was the default, it'd be kinda weird to design the download
page that way because KDE itself is not designed that way. KDE believes in
offering choice to users, not hiding it. (Of course that's also an argument
against making KDE the default. But that's not what I'm asking for anyway,
I'm just asking for equal treatment!)

>> That assumes they actually know what they get when they click on the
>> mysterious sidebar link. People can be experienced GNU/Linux users
>> without knowing the sitemap of the Fedora web site by heart.
> I'm sorry?  "KDE fans go here!" is mysterious?  We're happy to take
> suggestions for better text there.

"KDE fans go here!" is a bit weird, but tolerable. The get-fedora-all link
is the real problem, it doesn't even say there are important options like
x86_64 which are only listed on that page.

This x86_64 issue is also a nasty side effect of your design policy: why are
we defaulting to reduced performance for the vast majority of new hardware
(basically only netbooks and a handful pretty specialized devices use
32-bit-only CPUs these days!) just in the name of avoiding a choice and
potential frustration of clueless users who don't know they need the 32-bit
version? That's yet another bad tradeoff in the name of usability. I know
several people who have accidentally downloaded the 32-bit version when
they actually wanted x86_64 because the 64-bit version is hidden the way it
is. It's hard to find even for clueful users!

> Somebody could just as well say, "Trading the convenience of completely
> clueless potential users for experienced users who can't even be
> bothered to look up how much a distribution supports the various desktop
> environments (or just click the giant KDE button on the sidebar) is a
> really bad tradeoff!"  You're welcome to bring up the target user for
> our get-fedora page on fedora-websites-list if you disagree, but the
> vast majority of us want to put clueless users first and have
> experienced users that know exactly what they want make one extra click.

There's much talk about the most important users for us being those who
become contributors. So why all this focus on the user group least likely
to ever become a contributor? People who really care (i.e. those who may be
contributing at some point in the future) will look up what KDE and GNOME
are if they don't know it yet. Linking to some information page for each
desktop which also has links to the upstream site and resources would make
it easier. Similarly, there could be an information page about 64-bit
compatibility, with CPU compatibility lists and information how to get the
CPU model from Window$ (Control Panel) or any existing GNU/Linux
installation (cat /proc/cpuinfo). Don't remove the choice, allow people to
make an informed choice!

>> > If other DEs were to be moved off of spins.fp.o in the future,
>> Count on me to fight tooth and nails against declassing KDE in that way!
>> Turning the KDE spin torrent-only (as the spins.fp.o spins are now) would
>> be a real catastrophe.
> Just to be clear, I said nothing about KDE being moved to spins.fp.o, I
> said if other DEs were to be moved _off_ of spins.fp.o, it would get an
> entry on get-fedora-all and maybe a dedicated page like KDE, but it
> would not be yet another option on the front get-fedora page.

OK, I misread your sentence, sorry.

        Kevin Kofler

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