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FDSCo Meeting 2007-04-15 IRC log



= IRC Log =

09:06 < quaid> <meeting>
09:06 < quaid> and good morning, and welcome back jmbuser 
09:07 < jmbuser> quaid: my eyes read docs but my brain hears meeting
09:07 < quaid> agenda at ... 
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings
09:07 < jmbuser> quaid: nice to be back
09:07 < quaid> jmbuser: heh, no vacation quite like the end of vacation.
09:08 < robertjs> Good morning mates, my name is Robert and i'm a
brand-new 
                  member of the docs project.
09:09 < jmbuser> robertjs: Greetings, Robert
09:09 < quaid> robertjs: good morning :)
09:09 < kiluawuyu> me, too :)
09:10 < robertjs> Thanks to all :)
09:10 < jmbuser> kiluawuyu: Good day to you
09:10 < kiluawuyu> Thanks a lot :D
09:11  * quaid updates the agenda a bit
09:11 < quaid>    1.
09:11 -!- Irssi: Pasting 6 lines to #fedora-docs. Press Ctrl-K if you
wish to 
          do this or Ctrl-C to cancel.
09:12 < quaid>       Finalize name and structure of Fedora 7 edition of
Desktop 
               User Guide - JohnBabich
09:12 < quaid>    2. Status of delivery test4 relese notes
09:12 < quaid>    3. GSoC thinking
09:12 < quaid>    4. Admin Guide discussion
09:12 < quaid>    5. L10N other 
09:12 < quaid> something like that :)
09:12 < quaid> jmbuser: so, lots of DUG discussion, etc.  How are you
feeling 
               about it all?
09:15  * quaid wonders if we lost jmbuser's 'net connection
09:15 < robertjs> :p
09:16  * quaid goes to 'cvs up -d' the release-notes module to see how
that is 
          in the meantime
09:16 < kiluawuyu> Do we need to add some other help document into DUG
if                    typical error occurs?
09:16 < robertjs> jmbuser: Are you there?
09:16 < quaid> yeah, probably a dropped connection
09:17 < BobJensen-Away> I am really sorry I got my self "triple booked"
this 
                        morning
09:17 < quaid> BobJensen-Away: hey, quick q for you
09:17 < BobJensen-Away> quaid: I should have about 15 minutes
09:17 < quaid> BobJensen-Away: since this is a test release, are we
looser on 
               the rules about "how much % translated"
09:17 < quaid> for the release notes
09:18 < BobJensen-Away> quaid: Yes, we are only hard core on the final
09:18 < quaid> I think some of what I see here is false fuzziness
anyway, from 
               the entities reversal
09:18 < quaid> BobJensen-Away: +1
09:18 < BobJensen-Away> as a result some may be in the test4 partially 
                        completed but not included in final if no
progress is 
                        made
09:19 < BobJensen-Away> IIRC we had a 90% rule? is that correct for
final?
09:19 < quaid> yes
09:19 < quaid> we may want to ask our L10n experts if that is
reasonable, just 
               be sure
09:19 < quaid> (we can follow up on that separately)
09:19 < BobJensen-Away> +1 to that
09:20 < BobJensen-Away> I like "any attempt" to be in the tests as a way
of 
                        encouraging the translators
09:20 < quaid> yes
09:21 < quaid> it looks like we are a day ahead of schedule, I think
the 
               releases schedule bumped up by a day
09:22  * quaid is working on agenda item 2 in case it isn't clear
09:22 < quaid> making sure we are ready to deliver the release-notes
package in 
               time for test4
09:22 < quaid> (also the about-fedora and homepage modules)
09:23 < BobJensen-Away> quaid: RE: about-fedora
09:23 < BobJensen-Away> did we find a solution to the issue with that?
09:24 < quaid> BobJensen-Away: I *think* we have something working, but
I 
               forget the details
09:24  * quaid writes an email of a few questions for stickster_afk 
09:24 < BobJensen-Away> OK, just checking, I was a little out of the
loop on 
                        that item
09:24 < quaid> no worries, me too :)
09:25 -!- jmbuser_ [n=jmbuser 195 229 25 134] has joined #fedora-docs
09:25 < quaid> et voila!
09:25 < BobJensen-Away> We are checking out a new camping area this
morning for 
                        our first campout planned for June 8
09:25 < jmbuser_> I'm back
09:25 < quaid> un bad net connection
09:25  * quaid high-5s BobJensen-Away 
09:25 < quaid> excellent
09:25 < jmbuser_> Was it just me?
09:26 < quaid> jmbuser: yep
09:26 < quaid> jmbuser: we just finished with agenda item 2, held on for
your 
               return ...
09:26 < BobJensen-Away> My ride is just about here so i am going to take
off
09:26 < quaid> I know how your connection can be at times
09:26 < jmbuser_> quaid: Apologies for my stinking ISP
09:26 < quaid> BobJensen-Away: thanks, see you
09:26 < quaid> jmbuser_: so, let me dig up my opening question for
you ...
09:27 < quaid> jmbuser: so, lots of DUG discussion, etc.  How are you
feeling 
               about it all?
09:27  * quaid == king of open questions
09:29 < jmbuser_> I would like to get agreement from everyone on the DUG
(or 
                  new name to be determined) that we should have one doc
with 
                  different sections covering the default (GNOME) and
including 
                  KDE and (perhaps) Xfce. There would be common topics
such as 
                  OpenOffice.org and Firefox.
09:29 < jmbuser_> agreed?
09:30  * jmbuser_ waits for input
09:30  * quaid +1
09:30 < quaid> but I was pretty clear abou that on list :)
09:31 < JonRob> +1
09:31 < JonRob> (but i must run...heading out to a concert)
09:31 < JonRob> have fun
09:31 -!- JonRob [n=jon 88-111-147-240 dynamic dsl as9105 com] has left 
          #fedora-docs []
09:31 < jmbuser_> It will be necessary to explain what a desktop
(window 
                  manager) is and that GNOME is the default
09:32 < quaid> we'll find a way
09:32 < quaid> I had one question/thought ... would it help to have ...
a 
               checklist of what needs to be done in a section for it to
be 
               task-oriented v. reference-oriented
09:33 < quaid> and a list of all sections and how much of that is
completed, 
               etc.
09:33 < jmbuser_> Agreed
09:33 < robertjs> This initial set of apps sounds good to start. The
main usage 
                  is Desktop windows and panels, Web browsers and office
suite.
09:33 < quaid> checklist == derived from recent reviews and discussions
09:33 < jmbuser_> Now for the name - should we keep it Desktop User
Guide or 
                  change it to something else, like Fedora New User
Guide?
09:34 < robertjs> Humm...
09:35 < kiluawuyu> I think it's better to have "fedora" within the
name~~
09:35 < jmbuser_> I will prepare an outline and a checklist for people
to track 
                  progress
09:35 < quaid> or ... Fedora User Guide and show "expert" sections as 
               incomplete?
09:35 < BobJensen-Away> Is the document 100% fedora specific?
09:35 < quaid> +1 to Fedora in the name, that seems solid
09:36 < quaid> BobJensen-Away: yes, in that it is only what can appear
in the 
               distro (OOo, Fx, etc.)
09:36 < jmbuser_> +1 on Fedora in the name
09:36 < BobJensen-Away> Could it be used as the base for a generic linux
users 
                        document?
09:36 < robertjs> My oppinion is that Fedora User Guide is better to the
goal 
                  of manual.
09:36 < kiluawuyu> Linux users document maybe too big
09:36 < quaid> BobJensen-Away: it could, although those exist ... but
there is 
               some value in that, if we can connect across to other
projects
09:36 < jmbuser_> Fedora User Guide (with possible Advanced sections
added in 
                  the future) sounds good to me
09:37 < kiluawuyu> me too~
09:37  * couf comes back
09:37 < BobJensen-Away> See my thinking is if we keep s somewhat generic
name 
                        then distros based on Fedora could also make use
of it
09:37 < quaid> jmbuser_: how about we specify e.g. three tasks to
complete with 
               each tool and how to do it?  or some decision on tasks
that can 
               be described
09:37 < quaid> BobJensen-Away: they can rename it :)
09:37 < robertjs> jmbuser: Like some advanced settings or some basic
command 
                  line topics?
09:37 < quaid> well, one thing that is true ...
09:37 < jmbuser_> The challenge is to meet our immediate need for Fedora
while 
                  keeping it generic enough for upstream
09:38 < quaid> we have considered that *all* of the smaller guides
09:38 < quaid> can be stitched together into one Fedora Guide
09:38 < quaid> and the DUG == new users section
09:38 < quaid> ... and that is a goal of the project
09:38 < BobJensen-Away> OK ride is now here, I I just want it to be
known that 
                        keeping the name "Fedora" out of the title would
be a 
                        good thing in generaljust for the big picture
09:40 < quaid> I don't think it's needed
09:40 < quaid> since the title can be changed by downstream
09:40 < quaid> OPL and all that
09:40 < BobJensen-Away> that is just My opinion
09:41  * jmbuser_ is considering the options
09:41 < couf> quaid: +1
09:41 < jmbuser_> I agree that Fedora should stay in the title
09:43 < jmbuser_> Three tasks: 1. Common topics (OpenOffice.org,
Firefox, etc.)
09:43 < jmbuser_> 2. GNOME apps presented as default apps
09:44 < jmbuser_> 3. KDE apps given as alternate apps (Konqueror, for
example)
09:45  * jmbuser_ awaits response
09:45 < jmbuser_> Suggestion for new title: Fedora User Guide (emphasis
on 
                  beginners)
09:45 < jmbuser_> agreed?
09:45 < kiluawuyu> agree
09:46 < couf> hmm, I wouldn't do that: KDE users will like to see just
the 
              default kde-apps and not get confronted with: 'hey
konqueror is 
              an alternative"
09:46 < kiluawuyu> Fedora User Guide with Desktop user and system
administrator?
09:47 < jmbuser_> couf: I like KDE apps, but historically it's been a
GNOME 
                  desktop
09:47 < couf> +1 to FUG
09:47 < couf> jmbuser_: true, but we're getting a kde spin this time,
with 
              *just* kde on it
09:47 < quaid> couf: it's more like ... KDE is not default, here  is KDE
09:47 < quaid> ah
09:47 < quaid> or KDE is default :)
09:48 < quaid> ok, so neither is an alternative in the sense of "lesser"
but in 
               the sense of "other"
09:48 < couf> aye
09:48 < robertjs> We can keep KDE apps without use the word
"alternative", just 
                  presenting it as more one free choice.
09:48 < couf> like divide each chapter into a gnome part and kde part
09:49 < jmbuser_> System Administrator Guide would be a separate doc
09:49 < kiluawuyu> what about a whole Gnome part and a KDE whole part
09:49 < robertjs> couf: It normally works!
09:50 < robertjs> couf: Tho splited sections in same chapter.
09:50 < jmbuser_> OK, most people are going to use Firefox, but
Konqueror is a 
                  worthy alternative - how to present it is the issue
09:50 < robertjs> Two*
09:50 < couf> I'm just pointing out that we can't relay start off as:
fedora is 
              gnome, kde is alternate
09:50 < jmbuser_> Just present and leave off the GNOME/KDE labels -
since the 
                  software installer will resolve all the dependencies?
09:51 < couf> hmm, see what opens by default in a kde spin, and what
defaults 
              in a gnome spin?
09:51 < couf> we should just state the defaults, as a beginner-oriented
guide, 
              imo
09:52 < jmbuser_> That occurred to me, but do we have the time and
resources to 
                  produce a specific version for each spin - i don't
think so
09:52 < jmbuser_> Maybe for a future release
09:53 < couf> jmbuser_: that depends, if we can get the kde sig into the
game, 
              the kde version can rock
09:53 < quaid> I think the main time sink there is the 2(Wiki) => 2(XML)
09:53 < quaid> couf: good point
09:53 < quaid> putting up the structure on the Wiki is a key first step,
empty 
               structure, I think
09:54 < couf> yeah give them the tools to do it, we'll handle the rest
09:55 -!- jmbuser_ [n=jmbuser 195 229 25 134] has quit [Read error: 104 
          (Connection reset by peer)]
09:57 < quaid> oh, no, jmbuser!
09:57 < quaid> couf: do you think the KDE SIG will be more interested if
we 
               show a strong separation?
09:58 < quaid> v. "scroll down below the GNOME info and put in the KDE
version 
               there"?
09:58 < couf> I really don't know
09:58 < kiluawuyu> what about a KDE Plus section?
09:58 < couf> on the other hand, if they see all this gnome stuff
written, they 
              might want to do even better :)
10:00 < quaid> maybe we can use Include() to make them separate yet
pulled 
               together
10:00 < quaid> to be easier to work  one
10:00 < quaid> that's one thing I like about MediaWiki, being able to
edit == 
               sub sections == separately
10:00 < kiluawuyu> Shall we put the regular things together and then add
more 
                   words on what KDE could do?
10:00 < couf> quaid: +1
10:00 < kiluawuyu> quaid:+1
10:01 < kiluawuyu> Section:
10:01 < kiluawuyu>    sub section:
10:01 < kiluawuyu>    sub sectoin:
10:01 < kiluawuyu> like this?
10:01 < couf> kiluawuyu: yeah
10:02 < kiluawuyu> Agree :)
10:03 < couf> all right, maybe we should just start something else
while 
              awaiting jmbuser's return
10:03 < quaid> heh, i thought we'd end up discussing DUG all meeting
10:03 < quaid> without glezos, it's not worth discussing the GSoC and
L10N 
               connection
10:04 < couf> admin guide then, robertjs that seems to be yours
10:04 < robertjs> Ok
10:04 < quaid> I should just send a GSoC update to the list
10:04 < couf> quaid: right, glezos' app got selected, right?
10:05  * couf should stop typing "right"
10:05 < quaid> right!
10:05 < quaid> and a few others for us, and some interest in people who
didn't 
               get their apps acceptd to work on it anyway
10:05 < robertjs> I joined docs-project intending colaborate writing
the 
                  sections of the Admin Guide's sections.
10:05 < couf> quaid: great :)
10:05 < quaid> so, we'll have 3 or 4 docs/l10n focused projects this
summer
10:06 < robertjs> As I'm Braziliam my aim is write thos stuff in English
and 
                  Portuguese
10:06 < quaid> nman64_away: who is Jeff Sheltren?
10:06 < robertjs> Anybody here started write some section?
10:07 < couf> robertjs: yeah that guide needs some love
10:07 < robertjs> couf: It will get a lot ;)
10:07 -!- jmbuser [n=jmbuser 195 229 25 134] has joined #fedora-docs
10:07 < jmbuser> Good grief!
10:07 < couf> wb jmbuser
10:08 < couf> robertjs: I would say: dive in :)
10:08 < jmbuser> I actually was wrapping up
10:08 < robertjs> I posted a Self Presentation message on the discussion
list, 
                  talking about my plans. Ill need help off native
english 
                  speakers to revisions about my spelling :P
10:08  * jmbuser waits turn
10:08 < quaid> robertjs: no problem
10:09 < quaid> here, let's finish FUG discussion, just to tie back in
what we 
               suggested while jmbuser was gone
10:09 < robertjs> In the future i plan attack the current docs usggestin
and 
                  write some new "in depth" docs about sysadmin topics.
10:09 < robertjs> Ok
10:09 < quaid> jmbuser: we thought we could get the KDE SIG more
involved, use 
               a set of stub sections to entice them, and design it on
the Wiki 
               as Include() based to make it easier to work on
10:09 < robertjs> this is all for now.
10:10 < quaid> robertjs: sounds good
10:10 < jmbuser> quaid: Good
10:10 < jmbuser> To sum up:
10:11 < jmbuser> 1. New title: Fedora User Guide
10:11 < jmbuser> 2. New structure (using includes)
10:12 < jmbuser> 3. Common, GNOME (default), KDE (have you
considered...?)
10:12 < jmbuser> 4. Encourage KDE SIG to join in
10:12 < jmbuser> 5. Make F7 Deadline
10:13 < jmbuser> That's my viewpoint
10:13  * jmbuser finishes his contribution due to lousy internet
10:13 < kiluawuyu> F7 Deadline is included in FUG?
10:14 < couf> should we reconsider the topics, or go with the current
flow?
10:14 < quaid> jmbuser: for 3, note that KDE is default on the KDE spin,
so we 
               want to make it clear that it's two choices, then from
there ..
10:14 < quaid> couf: a thought on that ...
10:14 < jmbuser> quaid: That can flip based on includes
10:15 < quaid> maybe we want to pick e.g. 3 to 5 tasks per topic, make
sure 
               they are covered as how-to
10:15 < quaid> some things are obvious -- menu section == how to find
stuff in 
               these menus, etc.
10:15 < quaid> but for OOo or FX ... would that help?
10:16 < couf> OOo is to big to do that
10:16 < couf> I'd just explain what each different program does, but a
bit more 
              detailed then now
10:17 < jmbuser> Agreed, OOo is vast and we can only explain the basics
of how 
                 to launch the app and point to other resources
10:17 < couf> FX is more of a: this is browser, go to google and start
there :)
10:19 < jmbuser> couf: We can mention themes and extensions for Firefox,
but 
                 can't get into depth
10:20 < quaid> ok, we can deep link to some OOo docs perhaps
10:20 < quaid> ... or go into how to hook OOo up for printing?
10:20 < quaid> anyway, that's off topic for this meeting that needs to
come to 
               an end
10:20 < robertjs> Dudes, I must to go now. Later i will look the chat
log. Cya 
                  on discussion list or here.
10:20 < quaid> well, yeah, we need to finish
10:20 < couf> yeah indeed
10:20 < jmbuser> +1
10:21 < quaid> </meeting>

-- 
Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor    ^     Fedora Documentation Project 
 Sr. Developer Relations Mgr.     |  fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject
   quaid.108.redhat.com           |          gpg key: AD0E0C41
////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

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