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FDSCo Meeting 2007-04-22 IRC log



09:15 < quaid> <meeting>
09:15 < glezos> got carried away in a chinese buffet :)
09:16 < quaid> BobJensen. glezos, couf_away, stickster_afk good morning
09:16 < BobJensen> Morning Karsten
09:16 < glezos> Agenda is here: 
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings
09:16  * BobJensen has company so will be here hit and miss
09:17 < quaid> ok, I can handle the first item easily
09:17 < quaid> we got the final release notes dropped for translation 
               yesterday, it ended up only being about 12 hours late
09:18 < quaid> Paul actually had the POT/PO updated only a few hours after 
               midnight UTC, but i did a final edit pass since it was the 
               literally last chance for the ISO.
09:18 < quaid> from here, we'll track changes for the Web-only update, which 
               will also include a chance to update translations for the Web.
09:18 < quaid> and the cycle continues ...
09:19 < glezos> quaid: that's not a problem since translators can start working 
                on the first right away
09:19  * quaid also sent out a whiney, 3 am blog post on the subject
09:19 < quaid> oh, on a related subject
09:20 < quaid> we had a few small weirdnesses, but the notes and translations 
               all made it into test4 just fine, middle of last week
09:20 < quaid> the schedule here is a bit brutal, because of the extra days we 
               added for trans this time.
09:21 -!- jmbuser [n=jmbuser 195 229 25 134] has joined #fedora-docs
09:21 < jmbuser> Sorry I'm late...
09:21 < glezos> quaid: we can study when did our l10n contributors committed 
                their translations (were they on the first 2 days or on the 
                last 2 days, weekdays or weekends) to see if the extra days 
                were used after all.
09:21 < quaid> ok!  good idea
09:22 < BobJensen> +1
09:22 < quaid> jmbuser: no worries, better safe than sorry :)
09:22 -!- hers [n=chatzill 222 248 201 228] has joined #fedora-docs
09:22 < quaid> jmbuser: we started a little bit later and are just on the first 
               topic
09:22  * quaid blasts current log of meeting to jmbuser in pm
09:24 < quaid> ok, that seems a completed topic :)
09:24 < jmbuser> quaid: thanks
09:24  * quaid is working on closing f-dsco-l at this moment, too
09:25 < glezos> quaid: fedora-dsco-list?
09:25 -!- hers [n=chatzill 222 248 201 228] has quit [Client Quit]
09:25 < quaid> glezos: yes
09:25 < quaid> ok, so, moving on ...
09:26 < jmbuser> BTW, I want to thanks everyone, especially quaid, stickster 
09:26 < JonRob> +1
09:26 < quaid> I didn't want to dive into a long discussion of recruiting and 
               retaining for the project
09:26 < quaid> jmbuser: thanks :)
09:26 < quaid> I think the R&R discussion is good for the list
09:27 < quaid> but I wanted to address it enough so that those here are 
               thinking about it, and will participate in the discussion
09:28 < quaid> any thoughts on the subject for here?
09:29 < glezos> quaid: I remember a similar discussion a month ago and a 
                suggestion from me: 
http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2007-March/msg00090.html
09:29 < quaid> ok, making it easier to contribute is always a good idea :)
09:30 < quaid> some stuff improves with Wiki changes, etc.
09:30 < JonRob> i definately feel, as a new member here, that some kind of a 
                more clear todo list would be a good idea
09:31 < glezos> for retaining, two good ways to make it happen could be to make 
                ideas of new members easier to happen and to make them 
                maintainers of them, again, early on.
09:31 < quaid> one of my concerns is with existing projects, though, and 
               starting more new projects isn't going to help that as much.
09:31 < glezos> JonRob: +1. Our TaskSchedule page is a mess and shows stuff 
                we've been working for months but didn't achieve 
(http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/TaskSchedule)
09:32 < quaid> maybe step 1 is to straighten out the current task needs before
               making it easier to start new stuff :)
09:32 < JonRob> quiad: yes
09:32 < quaid> also, that is an FDSCo task schedule
09:32 < quaid> not a project task schedule
09:32 < quaid> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Tasks
09:32 < quaid> that is a methodology document!
09:32 < quaid> eek
09:33 < glezos> quaid: didn't know about that. :) (the title of the page reads 
                "Fedora Docs Open Tasks")
09:33 < quaid> seems like a good place to start would be to distill and 
               organize tasks there, right?
09:33 < quaid> glezos: right, that is also a problem :)
09:33 < jmbuser> quaid: Despite stickster's heroic efforts, I'm still a little 
                 fuzzy on the Beats process :-)
09:33 < quaid> jmbuser: you mean, the technical weenie parts, or the social 
               content gathering parts/
09:33 < glezos> quaid: people see those tasks and say "no way I could help with 
                those stuff!"
09:33 < jmbuser> quaid: the former
09:34 < quaid> ok, so task 1 from this meeting is:
09:34 < quaid> 1. Rework DP/SC/TaskSchedule and DP/Tasks so the former is all 
               for FDSCo and obvious, and the latter is generic and well 
               pointed at
09:35 < glezos> quaid: is there a real need to separate the two?
09:35 < quaid> good question
09:35 < glezos> I mean, both of them are FDP tasks, it's just that some of them 
                need more experience.
09:35 < quaid> good point
09:35 < quaid> that is probably an outfall of sometimes on FDSCo would be 
               avaialble to do stuff
09:36 < JonRob> if you put them together at least have them under clear 
                headings, otherwise could be overwhelming/scary
09:36 < glezos> yup
09:36 < quaid> maybe a column, "Expertise level required"
09:36 < JonRob> something similar to the layout of the new join page?
09:37 < quaid> JonRob: you mean the master Join page?  wiki/Join
09:37 < JonRob> yeah
09:37 < quaid> perhaps, although that design seems to work great for directing 
               desire, but not as much for tracking tasks
09:38 < JonRob> the clear headings with sharp bullet points make it accessible 
                though
09:38 < quaid> ah, I see
09:39 < JonRob> something which some sort of a todo list needs to be to make 
                new users feel they can really bite
09:39 < quaid> ok, we'll start with reworking and combining those pages into 
               one; means retiring the TaskSchedule most likely since that is 
               an obscure URL
09:39 < quaid> anything else?  or to the list with this discussion?
09:40 < glezos> the more clear we are on what we *are* doing and what we *want* 
                to do (and how important/urgent) each task is, the better 
                picture new and experienced members would choose where to turn 
                their attention to
09:40 < glezos> ok for the list..
09:40 < quaid> +1
09:40 < jmbuser> quaid: proceed
09:40 < quaid> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SummerOfCode/2007
09:40 < quaid> for those who aren't aware
09:40 < quaid> we have two main projects there, and a closely related to us one 
               (man/info publication)
09:41 < glezos> yay for Fedora Docs! :)
09:41 < quaid> :)
09:41 < quaid> so, just be aware that Google gave 2 extra months at the 
               beginning for
09:41 < jmbuser> glezos: Congrats on your winning entry
09:41 < quaid> getting people connected into the projects early
09:42 < quaid> so, we know what glezos is doing, that has been well discussed
09:42 < glezos> jmbuser: thanks :)
09:42 < quaid> what daMaestro (JonathanSteffan) is doing is the magic between 
               Plone and the rest of our tools
09:43 < quaid> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SummerOfCode/2007/JonathanSteffan
09:43 < quaid> you can read all the cracky ideas there :)
09:43 < glezos> quaid: unfortunately, I won't be able to really get my hands on 
                code until the end of May. However we could start some work on 
                setting up the domain, discussing the details etc.
09:43 < quaid> glezos: that's to be expected, sure
09:43 < quaid> glezos: you are already ahead of the curve anyway :)
09:44 < quaid> the extra time really serves people where the student is brand 
               new to the project
09:44 < glezos> yup
09:44 < quaid> there is one other interesting thing we're going to be seeing 
               worked out onlist soon, I hope
09:44 < quaid> a student in a different summer of code project is also working 
               on the man/info project
09:44 < quaid> from a different angle
09:44 < quaid> so we're likely to send up with a couple of solutions there.
09:45 < glezos> cool
09:45 < jmbuser> excellent
09:45 < quaid> yeah, unfortunately they are not allowed to work together, a 
               strange irony of the SoC process
09:45 < jmbuser> hmmmmm
09:46 < quaid> any questions here, or shall we move on to discuss F7 guides?
09:46 < jmbuser> quaid: nothing wrong with interfacing independently with FDP?
09:47 < quaid> nope
09:47 < quaid> don't think so
09:48 < jmbuser> quaid: that's good
09:48 < quaid> we'll see how it progresses, maybe a natural break occurs to 
               make it modular v. two parallel projects, and we get one to work 
               on part A, the other on part B
09:48 < quaid> I haven't contacted the other mentor for this yet
09:51 < glezos> shall we move on?
09:51 < jmbuser> +1
09:51 < quaid> thx, yes
09:51  * quaid is also making roll-up pancakes :)
09:51 < quaid> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Schedule#guides-schedule
09:52 < quaid> so, that is for any guides that wanted to be translated and 
               shipped with F7
09:53 < jmbuser> quaid: so any changes to the DUG are for next release?
09:54 < quaid> uh, well
09:54 < quaid> that is only if we want to ship with the release
09:54 < quaid> maybe that is unrealistic
09:54 < glezos> too bad :(
09:54 < quaid> or rather, it is obviously unrealistic now :)
09:54 < quaid> well, we can ship non-trans with the release
09:54 < quaid> at least the DUG is moving forward
09:55 < JonRob> what's happening with the DUG after last meeting? or is that a 
                topic for the list?
09:57 < quaid> list topic, I reckon
09:57 < jmbuser> JonRob: I think so, too
09:57 < quaid> so, maybe checking on the IG and AG are both good list topics
09:58 < glezos> quaid: slightly off-topic: do we have an estimation for a 
                working Plone installation?
09:58 < quaid> glezos: fairly soon, in terms of installed to work with; 
               mmcgrath has it on his task list right now, aiui
09:58 < glezos> I'm asking to see how soon could we start into resolving some 
                of the fragmentation we have in our various Docs
09:59 < quaid> it will be later in the Summer for magic to start happening
09:59 < glezos> ok, thanks
10:01 < glezos> anything else to be added before moving to L10N?
10:01 < quaid> nope
10:01 < glezos> okie
10:02 < glezos> so, *some* stats for our translations is at: 
                http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Translation/Statistics
10:02 < glezos> not too helpful probably (guides are not mentioned there) but 
                quite some translators have requested access to the cvsl10n 
                group
10:03 < glezos> One of the tasks we could have for this week, as mentioned 
                earlier, is to see when translations for relnotes were 
                submitted to see how many days translators actually need
10:04 < glezos> Since we don't yet have a stats page, some reminders to the 
                -trans-list about urgent docs needing translations, and 
                generally, updates on our docs, could be very useful
10:05 < jmbuser> glezos: Are the stats something you are developing further 
                 this summer?
10:05 < quaid> ok, good point
10:05 < glezos> jmbuser: yes, it's a major part of the GSoC project.
10:05 < quaid> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SummerOfCode/2007/DimitrisGlezos
10:06 < quaid> details there
10:06 < glezos> quaid: the more updates the better. Even one-liners; the l10n 
                team actually feels a bit un-informed about doc/app updates :)
10:06  * jmbuser thinks updates and stats are good
10:06 < quaid> ok!
10:06 < quaid> maybe a daily or every-other-day update at this point would be 
               good, sure
10:07 < quaid> glezos: here is why i am shy ... I have written often to 
               f-trans-l without a response, so i don't know when it helps that 
               i email, and I don't want people to burn out on seeing my 
               address :)
10:07 < glezos> quaid: have you checked about responses in the form of CVS 
                commits?
10:08 < glezos> I mean, Paul wrote recently about reverting the xml2po flag but 
                I didn't reply to him that I updated the greek translation of 
                docs-common
10:09 < glezos> One final point that recently concerns me is that of 
                translation of the Website (Wiki for now) in general. We have 
                been absolutely horrible in this respect b/c the wiki simply 
                lacks a l10n workflow but I hope that Plone will fix this.
10:09 < quaid> hmm, ok
10:09 < quaid> how?
10:09 < quaid> how will Plone fix this?
10:10 < glezos> it supports l10n for every page
10:10 < quaid> are you thinking we'll move to the Plone Wiki tool from Moin?
10:10 < glezos> quaid: no, I am not conerned in translating every wiki page, 
                just the important ones
10:11 < quaid> ok
10:11 < quaid> ah!  good point
10:11 < glezos> at some point we will need to decide what will be transferred 
                to Plone, right? Like GNOME, they have gnome.org but also a 
                wiki at live.gnome.org
10:11 < quaid> we need to identify pages that need to move from Wiki to Plone
10:11 < quaid> right
10:11  * mmcgrath notes we can have a production plone instance very soon.
10:11 < jmbuser> Both moinmoin and plone have their uses
10:11 < quaid> this is something we can start to do before daMaestro starts his 
               thing, i think
10:11 < mmcgrath> pre F7.
10:12 < glezos> quaid: sure. Also, we'd need to see how we are going to 
                implement docs.fedoraproject.org (separate Plone instance? etc)
10:12 < glezos> anyway, this falls in the scope of the Websites Project I guess.
10:12 < quaid> probably a dive into a specific location in Plone
10:12 < quaid> yeah
10:14 < glezos> I'm through with what is on my mind about Docs+L10N
10:14 < quaid> mmcgrath: cool
10:14 < quaid> sorry
10:14 < quaid> that wasn't directed at mmcgrath actually :)
10:15 < quaid> ok, anything else?
10:16  * quaid should be able to do the log and summary again this week
10:16 < quaid> already working on it :)
10:16 < glezos> quaid: great, thanks
10:16 < jmbuser> quaid: Thanks
10:16 < JonRob> awesome :D
10:17 < quaid> sorry I'm such a crappy project manager, btw, it's not my 
               strongest suit :)
10:17 < quaid> if it were, I know FDP would be in a bit better shape
10:17 < glezos> quaid: how much better? :)
10:17  * quaid contemplates recruiting poelstra to help
10:17 < quaid> glezos: different-better :)
10:18  * glezos should return to study now. ta ta guys
10:18 < quaid> actuallly ... I'll talk with John about FDP being an early 
               adopter of his PM methodologies
10:18 < quaid> we're good at that :)
10:18 < quaid> yep, we can finish
10:18 < quaid> </meeting>

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