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FDSCo Meeting 2007-05-12 IRC log



Also at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings/Minutes/IRCLog20070515

09:07 < quaid> <meeting>
09:07  * quaid was busy handing out oatmeal and toast
09:08  * gomix my first... just listening
09:08 < stickster_work> hi everybody
09:08 < couf> hi all
09:08 < stickster_work> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings
09:08  * EvilBob is still here
09:09  * stickster_work just posted an update to the relnotes schedule to closer match reality
09:09 < quaid> ok
09:09 < stickster_work> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Schedule
09:09 < stickster_work> didn't do guide schedule tho'
09:10 < quaid> we can discuss that one
09:10 < couf> yeah, guides in somewhat uncertain
09:10 < stickster_work> Also, check out those statistics: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Translation/Statistics
09:10 < couf> s/in/is
09:11 < quaid> wow, are those, like, complete?
09:11  * quaid works on his, you know, King of the Comma thing
09:12 < stickster_work> Yeah, and ignore the funkiness in the homepage-ja -- there's a trivial error in the PO but that one is done too.
09:12 < couf> nice stats, thanks for keeping this up2date
09:12  * quaid was just going to ask about that one
09:12 < stickster_work> Unfortunately, Emacs is terminally busted in Rawhide right now so I can't open it to fix it! :-)
09:12 < quaid> I bet Vim isn't busted! :)
09:13 < stickster_work> Oh, AS IF I'd use that... ;-)
09:13 < EvilBob> lol
09:13 < jsmith> stickster_work: You *will* and you'll like it :-)
09:13 < stickster_work> I like eating chinese food with one chopstick too
09:13  * quaid side notes that he is happy that jsmith is a DocBook and Vim user, might help us to improve our story in that area
09:13 < stickster_work> No kidding
09:13 < jsmith> That's right!
09:13 < stickster_work> By the way, everyone, welcome jsmith, a great guy who lives about 20 min. from my house, believe it or not
09:14  * quaid *boggles*
09:14 < quaid> a real-life person :)
09:14 < stickster_work> OK, maybe 30
09:14 < stickster_work> Published author extraordinaire
09:14 < jsmith> So, I signed up for an account... still need to introduce myself on the list
09:14 < couf> sweetness
09:14 < jsmith> Make my new gpg key, etc. this morning too
09:14 < EvilBob> legends don't need introduction?
09:14 < quaid> ok, i declare myself happy with the state of the relnotes and translations
09:14 < EvilBob> or something
09:14 < couf> quaid: ++
09:15 < quaid> EvilBob: they do, unless they want people to make up their own story about their legend status
09:15 < EvilBob> lol
09:15 < stickster_work> We'll drop this to releng 'round about Thursday
09:15 < stickster_work> If I can interject a little status here
09:15 < quaid> aye?
09:15 < quaid> or, rather, aye! (?)
09:15 < stickster_work> I spoke with glezos at RHS about this, in particular, whether we wanted to try and sneak in any additional content the last few days
09:15 < quaid> heh heh
09:16 < stickster_work> He felt it would be a bad idea.  I was hoping to get in one or two Very Important Things, but I thought better of it on the plane coming home.
09:16 < quaid> after all, if it ain't broke yet, keep on hitting it with a hammer!
09:16 < quaid> stickster_work: now you feel like all the other people who worry about our early schedule for trans
09:16 < quaid> remember our secret plan?
09:16 < stickster_work> What I think made up my mind was a bit of thread I saw on either f-devel-l or f-maintainers-l
09:16 < quaid> that we are going to put a link at the top of all pages to the Web-version?
09:17  * quaid actually never got a confirmation that this plan was a good idea
09:17  * couf likes linking
09:17 -!- jmbuser [n=chatzill 212 70 37 3] has joined #fedora-docs
09:18 < stickster_work> What does "at the top of all pages" mean, remind me?
09:18  * jmbuser joins you late via a 26.4 kbps dial-up connection
09:18 < quaid> ok, like this ...
09:18 < couf> welcome jmbuser
09:18 < stickster_work> Hi jmbuser!
09:18 < EvilBob> Hey look jmbuser is here kinda
09:18 < jmbuser> carry on
09:18 < EvilBob> jmbuser: Don't worry we will type slow for you
09:19 < quaid> stickster_work: we copy the admonition from the OverView (in all $LANGs) and paste it at the top of each XML page
09:19 < quaid> probably the best way is to ...
09:19 < quaid> do the change in the XML in en_US, then make new POT, then copy in the msgstr to each POT file
09:20 < stickster_work> quaid: Shouldn't have to even do the copying -- the gettext utilities should be smart enough to do all this automagically
09:20 < quaid> cool
09:20 < stickster_work> I mean, the copying of other LANGs.
09:20 < stickster_work> I'll give this a whirl real quick and tell you results before we're done here
09:20 < quaid> I know it makes the pages a bit busy, but ...
09:20 < stickster_work> I was going to suggest that we put it at the top of all the "substantive" parts, i.e. not the colophon, stuff like that
09:21 < quaid> anything else on the relnotes?
09:21 < quaid> ok, sure, colophon we can skip
09:21 < stickster_work> Also, we should be dropping the PackageChanges content from the XML version
09:21 < quaid> oh, yeah, def.
09:21 < stickster_work> coolness
09:21 < couf> aye
09:21 < stickster_work> ha!
09:21 < quaid> we're going to leave that on the wiki, right?
09:21  * stickster_work keeps typing "emacs <something>" by habit and gets ugly stack dump
09:21 < stickster_work> quaid: +1, right
09:22 < stickster_work> just eliminate from shipping version
09:22 < quaid> 'scool
09:22  * stickster_work cries over his lost Emacs
09:22 < quaid> no doubt
09:22 < stickster_work> "You never gave up on anything in your life, you bitch! Now fight! FIIIIIGHT!!!!"
09:23 < stickster_work> (Ed Harris, "The Abyss"?  Anyone?  *sigh)
09:23  * stickster_work simmers down
09:23 < jsmith> Yeah, I got it
09:24 < jsmith> Good movie, considering
09:24 < stickster_work> thank goodness...
09:24 < quaid> +1 to the director's cut, -1 to the theater release
09:24 < stickster_work> true dat
09:24 < jsmith> Haven't seen the director's cut
09:24  * jsmith needs to do that
09:24 < quaid> it's like "2.5 stars" becomes "3.5 stars"
09:25 < quaid> ok ...
09:25  * couf needs to see it
09:25 < quaid> on to IG talk
09:25 < quaid> (and other guides, one at a time)
09:25 < jmbuser> focus
09:25 < stickster_work> Uh-oh, IG is me too
09:25 < quaid> jmbuser: well, yeah, since you may disappear in a cloud of modem at any time
09:25 < jmbuser> ok
09:25 < stickster_work> Actually, I've made quite a bit of progress, been committing steadily
09:26 < stickster_work> Still encouraging people to check out, patch, whatever
09:27 < stickster_work> the RHS interfered somewhat, as I suspected, and when I got back I had a horrendous back spasm that put me out of commish for the last 48 hours
09:27 < stickster_work> I should be able to do quite a bit more work this week
09:27 < stickster_work> The week's slippage is a bit of a godsend if for no other reason than that
09:27 < EvilBob> +1
09:27  * quaid has been reading IG, but not for a week
09:27 < quaid> I'll def. add an edit this week
09:28 < quaid> we can talk about the schedule here, too
09:28 < quaid> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Schedule#Guides
09:28 < EvilBob> For those of you who don't know the internet access in the rooms at the RHS was worse than jmbuser's connection plus it was shared
09:28 < stickster_work> That is NO lie.
09:29 < stickster_work> The only decent wifi was set up by RH, which meant a 1/4 mile walk from my tower to the convention area
09:29 < EvilBob> Several of us worked a lot in the summit spaces even after hours
09:29 < couf> ouch
09:29 < stickster_work> So, back on topic --
09:30 < stickster_work> From my vantage point, I think a F7 GA of 5/31 is somewhat... optimistic.
09:30 < stickster_work> It could happen.
09:30 < stickster_work> But the QA efforts have been hampered by the Rawhide slump during the final parts of the merge.
09:30 < stickster_work> There are a number of regressions that the developers are trying to overcome
09:31 < EvilBob> Yeah looking like early June from the voices I have been hearing
09:31 < stickster_work> So we may be in good shape by setting a CVS freeze up for, say, 22 May
09:31 < stickster_work> Maybe even 27 May
09:31 < quaid> let's presume a later release for all guides, except ...
09:31 < quaid> maybe we can be prepared with just the IG in case they finish "on time"
09:31 < stickster_work> I think 22 May gives the translators more time for these guides, but we should keep in mind that translations may not come out until significantly after GA
09:31 < stickster_work> quaid: Roger that
09:32 < jmbuser> BTW, has anyone else  had some hiccups in F7T4 after updating?
09:32 < EvilBob> quaid: +1
09:32 < quaid> yes, that's OK, as long as the English is out on time and we are updating with l10n rapidly
09:32 < stickster_work> jmbuser: Yes, let's save that discussion for after meeting tho'
09:32 < couf> quaid: +1
09:32 < jmbuser> ok
09:32 < couf> May 27 seems like a reasonable freeze-date
09:33 < EvilBob> I think if we can team up with Paul on the IG and get it done then start looking at other targets it would be a good idea
09:34 < quaid> sure, just not all of us :) because we have other stuff to get done, too
09:35 < stickster_work> +1
09:36 < jsmith> So, assuming I find some time this week to help out, what should I begin with?
09:36 < stickster_work> I'd appreciate if someone files a bug saying, "You forgot <X>"
09:37  * EvilBob goes to file that bug
09:37 < quaid> I think jsmith is probably needed on either the user guide or the admin guide
09:37 < jsmith> OK... I'll look for those modules in CVS
09:37 < stickster_work> yeah, I think a large part of this is reviewing what's been written for style and audience consideration
09:37 < stickster_work> Is either of those in CVS yet?
09:38 < couf> dug version 6 yes, devel not yet
09:38 < couf> or fug or whatever
09:39 < couf> admin not afaik
09:39 < quaid> sorry, Wiki
09:39 < stickster_work> yeah, jsmith, here's where you find out how much work there really is to do :-D
09:39 < stickster_work> We've been paying a penalty on "few writers, lotsa work"
09:40  * stickster_work considers briefly analogy to budget deficit and give sup
09:40 < stickster_work> s/give sup/gives up/
09:40 < jsmith> That's fine... I can't guarantee how much time I can devote to the project, but I'll do my best
09:41 < stickster_work> Rather than divvying up our forces too much, why not let jsmith collaborate on either the UG or the IG as he sees fit?
09:41 < stickster_work> We can set other targets after those are done, with a better chance of getting things done for F8
09:42 < jmbuser> jsmith: Are you willing and able to add some KDE love to the DUG/FUG?
09:42  * couf nots yum-guide is sorta getta some love in the wiki
09:42 < jsmith> I haven't touched KDE in ages
09:42 < couf> s/nots/notes
09:43 < jsmith> Of course, that might mean I'll see it with fresh eyes!
09:43  * couf loves our new tagline ;)
09:44 < stickster_work> Who is helping mether with the yum SMG?
09:44 < jmbuser> jsmith: I overcame my  writer's block today (on the wiki) and am trying to figure out how to deal fairly with both KDE and GNOME apps
09:45 < jmbuser> jsmith: without totally confusing the reader.
09:45 < couf> stickster_work: iirc JonRob
09:46 < jmtaylor> I have some time this week to devote, if someone could point me in a direction :)
09:46 < stickster_work> jmtaylor: Do you have a Rawhide box?
09:46 < stickster_work> Or F7test4
09:46 < stickster_work> ?
09:46 < jmtaylor> I can make one yes
09:46 < stickster_work> jmtaylor: OK, you're going to need to be a little proactive here
09:47 < stickster_work> Install one, then check http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/SoftwareManagementGuide
09:47 < stickster_work> There are some "to-do's" at the top
09:47 < stickster_work> So start checking chapters, find out what doesn't work right anymore (has become outdated), and fix it on the wiki
09:47 < stickster_work> That's an easy way to have a BIG impact right away
09:47 < jmbuser> +1
09:47 < stickster_work> Rahul, Jon and lots of the rest of us can watch your commits.
09:48 < stickster_work> jmtaylor: Do you have watch pages set in your wiki user prefs?
09:48 < stickster_work> At the very least, you should set one for Docs/Drafts/SoftwareManagement*
09:48 < jmtaylor> stickster_work: yes, I do
09:48 < stickster_work> That will show you any changes that we make in response
09:48 < stickster_work> So you can pick up tips and hints on how to write more clearly (or at least more in line with our style preferences) :-)
09:49 < stickster_work> Assuming, of course, that the changes are improvements -- which is not necessarily a given! :-D
09:49 < stickster_work> We all try our best ;-)
09:49 < jmtaylor> heh, true
09:49 < stickster_work> OK, my time is running short guys, for whatever that's worth
09:50 < EvilBob> I figure about $143 per hour
09:50 < stickster_work> Is there anyone thinking "Gee, I don't have enough to do."?
09:50 < stickster_work> :-D
09:51 < jmbuser> you or me? :-)
09:51 < couf> jmbuser: okay to start converting the fug to xml so we have an xml in the back?
09:51  * stickster_work blows outta here like the wind, back to $DAYJOB
09:51 < couf> stickster_work: thanks dude
09:52 < jmbuser> couf: You may have noticed that I'm starting to edit the docs/drafts version
09:52 < jmbuser> stickster_work: thanks
09:52 < couf> yeah, that's why :-) want to be a bit proactive here aswell
09:52 < couf> some stuff won't change, give translators some chances to get it ahead of time
09:53 < stickster_work> couf: Keep in mind, once you go XML, it gets exponentially harder to bring in chnages
09:53 < stickster_work> well, exponentially is not quite right... but somewhat more difficult, to be sure
09:53 < jmbuser> couf: Unfortunately, I'm not a methodical writer - I will probably be banging on it for some time - and seeking feedback
09:53 < quaid> right, there is a gray line
09:54 < couf> stickster_work: thanks for the warning there :)
09:54 < jmbuser> couf: wiki is good for getting feedback quickly
09:54 < stickster_work> couf: np, let me know if I'm annoying you :-D
09:54 < quaid> there is a point where it is easier to re-convert than to manually port changes
09:55 < couf> jmbuser: sure go ahead, warn us in time to do the conv
09:55 < stickster_work> true
09:55  * jmbuser wants to go wild on the wiki :-)
09:56 < quaid> go baby go!
09:56  * quaid looks at the agenda again
09:56 < jmbuser> couf: give me a deadline
09:56 < quaid> I think we need to seek AG status on list
09:56 < quaid> and that ties up all the business
09:56 < couf> quaid: yeah, not sure if that's even alive
09:57 < couf> jmbuser: take your time, my friend :-)
09:59 < couf> quick question: are we still using the publish queue for putting docs online?
10:00 -!- jmtaylor [n=jason c-68-42-82-39 hsd1 mi comcast net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
10:00 < stickster_work> yes
10:00 < stickster_work> At least, I do
10:00 < stickster_work> It's an easy way to spot documents that are ready
10:01 < couf> yeah, although most translators don't even know about it
10:01 < stickster_work> yes, it probably needs to go into TQSG
10:01 < stickster_work> couf: Maybe you could file a bug on that?
10:02 < couf> sure
10:02 < stickster_work> I'll fix it as soon as I get a few min
10:02 < stickster_work> Or you could feel free to do it yourself, I'll see the commit and edit as necessary
10:02 < couf> yeah, I might do that
10:02 < couf> I'll open the bug in any case
10:03 < quaid> the pub-queue was sort of a stop-gap ...
10:03 < quaid> we can continue using it until glezos' magic system does auto-alerts :0
10:04 < couf> oooh magic :)
10:04 < stickster_work> right
10:04 < quaid> ok, that looks like the stuff
10:04 < quaid> any other business? (AOB)
10:05 < couf> heh lol, bug already exists (#198848)
10:06 < couf> quaid: nothing here
10:06 < quaid> right on from me, too
10:06  * quaid does the 10 second count down to close
10:07 < quaid> 10
10:07 < quaid> 9
10:07 < quaid> 8
10:07 < quaid> 7
10:07 < quaid> 6
10:07 < quaid> 5
10:07 < quaid> 4
10:07 < quaid> 3
10:07 < quaid> 2
10:07 < quaid> 1
10:07 < jsmith> 3.14
10:07 < quaid> curses, caught by pi!
10:07 < quaid> </meeting>

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