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FDSCo Meeting 2008-02-14 IRC log



Feb 14 04:57:31 <EvilBob>	Sparks: http://bjensen.fedorapeople.org/pkgs/docs/
Feb 14 04:58:09 <EvilBob>	jfearn: hope it is OK with you that I built
your packages for F8
Feb 14 04:58:47 <jfearn>	EvilBob, cool
Feb 14 04:58:51 *	Tsagadai has quit ("NO CARRIER")
Feb 14 04:59:06 *	Tsagadai (n=ccurran nat/redhat/x-1787ddbd7ce46934)
has joined #fedora-docs
Feb 14 04:59:30 <stickster>	So I assume everyone will want to have a
.repo file pointing to Bob's repo (above) and then 'yum install
publican-fedora'
Feb 14 04:59:54 *	jwulf_ (n=jwulf nat/redhat/x-00522800009fc0bb) has
joined #fedora-docs
Feb 14 04:59:59 <EvilBob>	stickster: also maybe publican-doc
Feb 14 05:00:01 <Sparks>	Where does the repo file go?
Feb 14 05:00:06 <stickster>	Right, I pulled that one too, thanks
Feb 14 05:00:13 <stickster>	Sparks: in /etc/yum.repos.d/
Feb 14 05:00:13 <EvilBob>	Sparks: /etc/yum.repos.d
Feb 14 05:00:19 <Sparks>	Ahhh
Feb 14 05:00:19 <Sparks>	Okay
Feb 14 05:00:23 <jwulf_>	who am i?
Feb 14 05:00:32 <Tsagadai>	jwulf :)
Feb 14 05:00:44 <noriko>	hi
Feb 14 05:00:47 <jwulf_>	no, i'm jwulf_
Feb 14 05:01:03 <EvilBob>	can we just call you Josh?
Feb 14 05:01:03 <jfearn>	jwulf_, the pope
Feb 14 05:01:22 *	mdious pokes bforte
Feb 14 05:01:28 <jwulf_>	EvilBob, sure
Feb 14 05:01:34 <stickster>	All right, who's chairing this par-tay?
Feb 14 05:01:44 <VileGent>	i thought the boss man
Feb 14 05:01:57 *	irooskov (n=irooskov nat/redhat/x-19fdb1c7f81aa462)
has joined #fedora-docs
Feb 14 05:01:58 <jwulf_>	stickster, you're the urlord... :-)
Feb 14 05:02:09 <stickster>	Oh lord, I figured as much..
Feb 14 05:02:30 <stickster>	So my job here, as I see it, is to
introduce jfearn and then have him tell us all about publican
Feb 14 05:02:54 *	KC0WYC (n=kc0wyc fedora/pdpc.sustaining.BobJensen)
has joined #Fedora-Docs
Feb 14 05:02:58 <stickster>	jfearn: everyone
Feb 14 05:03:00 <stickster>	everyone: jfearn
Feb 14 05:03:08 <jfearn>	Hi everybody!
Feb 14 05:03:09 <stickster>	Take it away jfearn!
Feb 14 05:03:27 *	pgampe (n=pgampe nat/redhat/x-2bb662e2e8dd7b95) has
joined #fedora-docs
Feb 14 05:03:28 <SgtDitt>	installing still
Feb 14 05:03:59 <quaid>	has anyone tried to build the
fedora-release-notes in publican?
Feb 14 05:04:10 <quaid>	does it require hacking the XML or structure?
Feb 14 05:04:16 *	jwulf_ (n=jwulf nat/redhat/x-00522800009fc0bb) has
left #fedora-docs ("Leaving")
Feb 14 05:04:22 *	jwulf_ (n=jwulf nat/redhat/x-00522800009fc0bb) has
joined #fedora-docs
Feb 14 05:04:23 *	EvilBob just built the packages, what more do you
want from me?
Feb 14 05:04:58 *	Acidz0r (n=tmiles unaffiliated/acid-x/x-000000002)
has joined #fedora-docs
Feb 14 05:05:01 <Sparks>	the world
Feb 14 05:05:14 *	EvilBob kicks Sparks in the shin
Feb 14 05:05:19 <Sparks>	:)
Feb 14 05:05:41 <Sparks>	Okay, I'm ready to learn...  How do you start
this thing?  Anyone got a key?
Feb 14 05:06:01 <mdious>	i seem to have left the key in my other pair of pants
Feb 14 05:06:10 <EvilBob>	Sorry guys, just a little punchy here
Feb 14 05:06:21 *	dkim_
(n=daobrien ppp59-167-115-60 lns3 bne4 internode on net) has joined
#fedora-docs
Feb 14 05:06:39 <stickster>	OK guys, let's remember that the RH
Content Services folks are on the clock in Brisbane, AUS.
Feb 14 05:06:46 <stickster>	Please make this time worth their while.
Feb 14 05:06:47 <SgtDitt>	create_book --name MyBook
Feb 14 05:07:02 <SgtDitt>	create_book --article sendmail
Feb 14 05:07:03 <jfearn>	well where to start...
Feb 14 05:08:13 <jfearn>	I'll start with some back ground on why we
thought we needed publican, the rest flows from there
Feb 14 05:08:38 <jfearn>	there has always been a seperation between
documentation and the main distro
Feb 14 05:09:17 <jfearn>	we wanted to be able to distribute
documentation with the main distro, and this required us to have a
docs build chain that integrated in to brew
Feb 14 05:09:55 <jfearn>	so, public is our attempt to do intergrate
documentation directly in to the distro
Feb 14 05:10:11 *	jwulf has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
Feb 14 05:10:21 *	jwulf_ is now known as jwulf
Feb 14 05:10:52 <EvilBob>	?
Feb 14 05:10:53 <jfearn>	this imposses a bunch of requirements for how
things are done, since release engineers are very demanding :)
Feb 14 05:11:09 <stickster>	jfearn: Will you take questions as you go?
Feb 14 05:11:17 <jfearn>	stickster, sure
Feb 14 05:11:25 <stickster>	Thanks, sorry to interrupt :-)
Feb 14 05:11:25 <stickster>	EvilBob:
Feb 14 05:11:26 <EvilBob>	How is brew related to our koji?
Feb 14 05:11:29 <EvilBob>	EOF
Feb 14 05:12:11 *	EvilBob notes that if we don't have a clear answer that is OK.
Feb 14 05:12:13 <jfearn>	EvilBob, I think brew is the pre-cursor to koji
Feb 14 05:12:22 <EvilBob>	K
Feb 14 05:12:26 <SgtDitt>	???
Feb 14 05:12:34 <quaid>	bottom line:
Feb 14 05:12:53 <quaid>	they needed a toolchain that plugged in to
internal RHT build system
Feb 14 05:13:11 <Tsagadai>	koji and brew are very, very similar
Feb 14 05:13:35 <EvilBob>	So we will plug in to koji hopefully, thanks
that is what I wanted.
Feb 14 05:13:58 <Tsagadai>	should be easy enough to do EvilBob
Feb 14 05:16:09 <stickster>	So publican provides build targets and
L10n functions, correct?
Feb 14 05:17:05 <jfearn>	stickster, yes, publican supports most of the
functionality of the previous internal tools and the fedora docs build
system
Feb 14 05:17:06 <jsmith>	stickster: It sure appears to ;-)
Feb 14 05:18:04 *	SgtDitt raises hand
Feb 14 05:18:11 <stickster>	SgtDitt:
Feb 14 05:18:31 <SgtDitt>	so does this mean we will be publish to docbook?
Feb 14 05:18:38 <SgtDitt>	;-)
Feb 14 05:18:47 <SgtDitt>	+1
Feb 14 05:19:10 <quaid>	SgtDitt: we are publishing to docbook :)
Feb 14 05:19:18 <jfearn>	publican only deals with docbook and xliff atm
Feb 14 05:19:30 <quaid>	this is an alternate toolchain to what is in
cvs.fp.org:/cvs/docs/docs-common etc.
Feb 14 05:19:58 <Tsagadai>	well hopefully a replacement toolchain
Feb 14 05:20:03 <SgtDitt>	as a new contributor, i publish to the wiki.
i prefer docbook, but i think it has been discussed that the idea may
be beyond some contributors
Feb 14 05:20:03 <mdious>	hmm....
Feb 14 05:20:24 <SgtDitt>	so how would this effect new contributors,
such as myself?
Feb 14 05:20:39 <Sparks>	and me
Feb 14 05:20:43 <EvilBob>	SgtDitt: Welcome to the team, you are
helping me and my guys with the Install Guide...
Feb 14 05:20:46 <mdious>	SgtDitt: it was my understand that people
edit the wiki, like you do now, then use the current toolchain to get
it into docbook....
Feb 14 05:20:52 *	EvilBob ducks
Feb 14 05:21:20 <jfearn>	publican doesn't change the current workflow,
and like the current tool chain it does not interact with the wiki
Feb 14 05:21:48 <VileGent>	! lets let jfearn continue his introduction
and ask these questions afterwards please
Feb 14 05:21:54 <VileGent>	eof
Feb 14 05:22:16 *	daMaestro has quit ("Leaving")
Feb 14 05:22:48 <jfearn>	there isn't much more to say as an intro,
I'be spent the last two years or so tinkering away and being harassed
by writers to add features :)
Feb 14 05:23:06 <stickster>	!
Feb 14 05:23:17 <EvilBob>	stickster:
Feb 14 05:23:26 <stickster>	Thanks EvilBob
Feb 14 05:23:34 <jfearn>	we think publican is just about ready for
prime time and wanted to get it out and thouroughly tested
Feb 14 05:23:35 <stickster>	jfearn: So I was looking at the way you
handle XML entities and was wondering
Feb 14 05:24:03 <stickster>	You're doing some regex to basically pull
out the stuff between "  "
Feb 14 05:24:21 <stickster>	What we did when developing our toolset
over... well, whenever it was...
Feb 14 05:24:25 *	giarc has quit ("Leaving")
Feb 14 05:24:33 <stickster>	was to do an XML-ish solution with a DTD
designated for entities.
Feb 14 05:24:55 <stickster>	This meant we could use standard tools to
pull the POT from a file like "doc-entities.xml"
Feb 14 05:25:15 <stickster>	So it was treated by (in our case) xml2po
just like any other file such as DocBook source
Feb 14 05:26:44 <stickster>	EOF
Feb 14 05:26:46 <stickster>	(sorry)
Feb 14 05:26:56 <jfearn>	stickster, the way we handle entities is to
add the entries during the build process, but it's in flux due to
translator issues with entities
Feb 14 05:27:27 <stickster>	Do the issues have to do with how included
entities are maintained during parsing?
Feb 14 05:27:30 *	napramirez (n=napramir fedora/napramirez) has joined
#fedora-docs
Feb 14 05:28:04 <jfearn>	stickster, no, the issues have to do with not
being able to set gender correctly due to lack of context in entity
strings
Feb 14 05:28:17 <stickster>	That's what I was getting at ;-)
Feb 14 05:28:32 <stickster>	Sorry, my terminology is probably all scrambled.
Feb 14 05:29:08 <jfearn>	stickster, I'm not expert so you may be right :)
Feb 14 05:29:17 <stickster>	But the point being, if the content of
"&FEDORA;" is translated only once by a translator, they have no
opportunity to change the word form in languages where the noun takes
different declensions
Feb 14 05:29:40 <stickster>	Like in Polish where they might use
"Fedora" or "Fedory" depending on context
Feb 14 05:30:05 <jfearn>	stickster, yes, also issues like in some
langauges the word is spelt differently depending on if it's at the
start/rnd/middle of a sentence etc
Feb 14 05:30:12 <stickster>	Right.
Feb 14 05:30:28 *	gomix (n=gomix 200 84 251 32) has joined #fedora-docs
Feb 14 05:30:30 *	SG_Logger (n=notfred 24 149 106 28) has joined #fedora-docs
Feb 14 05:30:58 <stickster>	As much as we would have liked to save the
translators from having to translate &SOMETHING; over and over, it was
more hacky to try and preserve the entity, and a better idea to simply
let it be parsed before it went to POT
Feb 14 05:31:12 *	gomix (n=gomix 200 84 251 32) has left #fedora-docs
Feb 14 05:31:23 <jfearn>	my conclusion was that the benefits of
entities to writers is out weighed by the pain it causes translators,
the war isn't won ;)
Feb 14 05:32:01 <stickster>	That was our conclusion too, I'll have to
find when I did that commit change
Feb 14 05:32:20 <stickster>	It was back when Tommy was still around
these parts, I'm pretty sure
Feb 14 05:32:49 <stickster>	So anyway, my point being, that ended up
being another driver for our using a "true XML" solution for entities
Feb 14 05:33:14 <stickster>	So we'd actually XSLT the doc-entities.xml
file into a doc-entities.ent
Feb 14 05:33:22 <stickster>	jfearn: Have you had time to look at our
build tools?
Feb 14 05:33:39 <jfearn>	stickster, not in a fair while
Feb 14 05:33:47 *	stickster sorry to take up everyone's time on this subject
Feb 14 05:34:10 <stickster>	It would be worth us looking through in
tandem at some convenient time for you where I can answer and ask
questions
Feb 14 05:34:15 <stickster>	To the extent I'm able ;-D
Feb 14 05:34:30 <jfearn>	stickster, cool :)
Feb 14 05:34:31 *	stickster EOF, apologies for yapping
Feb 14 05:35:21 <quaid>	good reference point, though
Feb 14 05:35:29 <quaid>	common pains, common ideas of how to solve
Feb 14 05:37:15 <stickster>	Does anyone want to suggest a next action item?
Feb 14 05:37:41 <EvilBob>	What can we do to get this rolling
Feb 14 05:37:41 <SG_Logger>	!
Feb 14 05:37:45 <mdious>	so...have many of you tried it?
Feb 14 05:37:51 <SG_Logger>	-0
Feb 14 05:38:06 <SG_Logger>	?
Feb 14 05:38:09 <mdious>	one + I can think of is that it is easier to
install a package than checkout from cvs, so it sort of lowers the
barrier to entry...
Feb 14 05:38:13 <jsmith>	I've tried it, and I'm liking it!
Feb 14 05:38:18 *	jmbuser just installed it and produced the MyBook - cool
Feb 14 05:38:29 <EvilBob>	jsmith: show off
Feb 14 05:38:36 *	jsmith just started a document explaining Publican ;-)
Feb 14 05:38:44 <jfearn>	I found one of the most popular side effects
was being able to move from cvs to svn :)
Feb 14 05:38:45 <EvilBob>	jsmith: cool
Feb 14 05:38:54 <stickster>	jsmith: This would supplement publican-doc?
Feb 14 05:38:57 <SG_Logger>	can we walk through starting a doc in publican
Feb 14 05:39:01 <SG_Logger>	eof
Feb 14 05:39:07 <jsmith>	stickster: I haven't looked at publican-doc yet ;-)
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Feb 14 05:39:47 <mdious>	SG_Logger: instructions for creating a book
Feb 14 05:39:47
<mdious>	https://fedorahosted.org/publican#sect-Publican-Using_the_publican_package-Creating_a_Book
Feb 14 05:39:59 <quaid>	mdious: in answer, I just got it installed and
built the example in the skeleton
Feb 14 05:40:17 <mdious>	basically you run create_book --name
Book_Name and add other options, which make it so you don't have to
edit the makefile...
Feb 14 05:40:58 <mdious>	for example, instead of editing the makefile
with "brand = blah", you can run "create_book --name Book_Name --brand
Fedora...
Feb 14 05:41:32 <mdious>	* --brand fedora
Feb 14 05:42:01 <jsmith>	Yeah, lower case "fedora"
Feb 14 05:42:18 *	quaid actually couldn't build the example that came
from create_book
Feb 14 05:42:21 <stickster>	O noez, I eated your branding!
Feb 14 05:42:30 <mdious>	quaid: what error did you get?
Feb 14 05:42:43 <quaid>	warning: failed to load external entity
"tmp/en-US/xml/Feedback.xml"
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Feb 14 05:43:04 <mdious>	quaid: I think that is okay to ignore
Feb 14 05:43:06 <SgtDitt>	Brand fedora does not contain a
Book_Template! at /usr/bin/create_book line 61
Feb 14 05:43:31 <mdious>	feedback.xml is something such as "if you
find a bug in <x>, please submit a bug against product <x>, component
<book_name>
Feb 14 05:43:38 <quaid>	mdious: but it hangs and doesn't end, nor is
there any HTML output
Feb 14 05:43:39 <quaid>	from 'make html-single'
Feb 14 05:43:39 *	EvilBob notes that the packages he built were
untested you are using them at your own risk!
Feb 14 05:43:39 <stickster>	Make sure you've also installed the
publican-fedora package
Feb 14 05:43:48 <jfearn>	quaid, that warning is due to the way that
Fallback falls back :)
Feb 14 05:43:54 <mdious>	and also the publican package...
Feb 14 05:43:57 <quaid>	I was wondering about that
Feb 14 05:43:58 *	poelcat (n=slick fedora/poelcat) has joined #fedora-docs
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Feb 14 05:43:58 *	GuGu (n=gugu 213 154 214 76) has joined #fedora-docs
Feb 14 05:44:07 *	quaid has publican-fedora installed but wondered if
a style package was required
Feb 14 05:44:13 *	samfw (n=samfw nat/redhat/session) has joined #fedora-docs
Feb 14 05:44:20 <stickster>	hm
Feb 14 05:44:20 <jfearn>	it will look for a local Fallback.xml and if
it doesn't find it it falls back to the brand Fallback.xml
Feb 14 05:44:23 *	Tombo-linux (n=mirggi ip-26-2 sn2 eutelia it) has
joined #fedora-docs
Feb 14 05:44:25 <mdious>	quaid: publica-fedora is the style package,
do you have publican installed as well?
Feb 14 05:44:31 *	herlo (n=clints 166-70-63-209 ip xmission com) has
joined #fedora-docs
Feb 14 05:44:32 <jfearn>	Feedback.xml
Feb 14 05:44:38 *	jfearn sighs
Feb 14 05:44:43 <quaid>	mdious: yes
Feb 14 05:44:47 <jsmith>	herlo: You're missing a good intro to Publican
Feb 14 05:45:52 *	quaid tries again with --bran
Feb 14 05:45:58 *	VileGent has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
Feb 14 05:45:59 <quaid>	--brand
Feb 14 05:46:14 <jwulf>	extra dietary fiber
Feb 14 05:46:24 <jwulf>	to push out your packages
Feb 14 05:46:31 <stickster>	Super Colon Blow!
Feb 14 05:46:31 <jfearn>	eew
Feb 14 05:46:41 <quaid>	jfearn: is it just that Feedback.xml is not
included in any of the packages?  Or ..?
Feb 14 05:46:41 *	mether (n=ask fedora/mether) has joined #fedora-docs
Feb 14 05:46:43 <jwulf>	ok, who has the t-shirt?
Feb 14 05:46:44 <EvilBob>	lol
Feb 14 05:46:45 <jwulf>	-
Feb 14 05:46:47 <jwulf>	:-)
Feb 14 05:47:04 *	mether has quit (Connection timed out)
Feb 14 05:47:42 <Tsagadai>	quaid you can choose which files to include
or not include from your books mail file "book-title".xml
Feb 14 05:47:46 <jfearn>	quaid, it's just the way docbook handles
fallbacks for xi:include, it can't find the first, so it issues a
warning, then it finds the fallback and continues on
Feb 14 05:48:19 <jfearn>	this way writers can use a brand and change
the Feedbakc file without creating a new brand
Feb 14 05:48:21 <quaid>	ah, so
Feb 14 05:48:35 <SgtDitt>	sweet! works great. lasts long time
Feb 14 05:48:52 *	davido
(n=daobrien ppp59-167-115-60 lns3 bne4 internode on net) has joined
#fedora-docs
Feb 14 05:49:07 -dmwaters-	{global notice} Good day all, I apologize
for the netsplits, we had some maintenence due on a couple servers but
it's over now. thank you for your patience, and thank you for using
freenode!
Feb 14 05:49:24 <jfearn>	mmm stormy waters
Feb 14 05:50:30 *	stickster hears faint tapping of keys across the land
Feb 14 05:50:51 <EvilBob>	stickster: no that is my kid running in the house
Feb 14 05:50:53 <jsmith>	stickster: I'm typing loud enough that you
can probably hear me
Feb 14 05:51:05 <jsmith>	stickster: (that is, if you can hear it above
the howling wind outside)
Feb 14 05:51:08 <stickster>	So has everyone seen publican in action, now?
Feb 14 05:51:24 *	quaid is having l'issues still
Feb 14 05:51:45 <jmbuser>	stickster:+1
Feb 14 05:52:37 *	stickster concerned about quaid's experience
Feb 14 05:53:05 <quaid>	well, I tried making a Feedback.xml, copied
Chapter.xml over and make the IDs unique
Feb 14 05:53:15 *	tombolinux has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.80 [Firefox
2.0.0.10/0000000000]")
Feb 14 05:53:35 <EvilBob>	stickster: it is quaid... it could be anything...
Feb 14 05:53:36 <quaid>	anyway, if I'm the only one
Feb 14 05:53:56 <mdious>	quaid: do you get the same feedback warning?
Feb 14 05:54:03 <quaid>	don't let me hold it up; it's either pebcak or
something about the packages I have installed
Feb 14 05:54:06 <quaid>	mdious: nope
Feb 14 05:54:18 <quaid>	it's getting better
Feb 14 05:54:18 <mdious>	quaid: what error do you get?
Feb 14 05:54:19 <SgtDitt>	mine works now. just read the email from jmbabich
Feb 14 05:54:53 <mdious>	quaid: if you created a feedback.xml, make
sure you updated the en-US/Book_Name.xml file, so that it includes
it...
Feb 14 05:54:53 *	noriko has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
Feb 14 05:55:09 <quaid>	mdious: that would be it
Feb 14 05:55:19 <jfearn>	quaid, maybe I need to take a trip over there
and show you how it works :)
Feb 14 05:55:26 *	jfearn pokes pgampe
Feb 14 05:55:42 <quaid>	jfearn: weather is nice in Orlando right now,
you are welcome to come
Feb 14 05:55:54 <quaid>	but I think all the java developers might make
you break out in hives
Feb 14 05:56:03 *	noriko (n=noriko 58 105 231 142) has joined #fedora-docs
Feb 14 05:56:11 *	jfearn loves the jboss brothers
Feb 14 05:56:14 *	EvilBob notes Java is Evil
Feb 14 05:56:25 <jsmith>	EvilBob: Yeah, but DocBook more than makes up
for it ;-)
Feb 14 05:56:27 <quaid>	mdious: since Preface.xml is calling
Feedback.xml, why add it to Book_Info.xml?
Feb 14 05:56:40 <quaid>	jfearn: it's good stuff here, good stuff
Feb 14 05:56:53 <mdious>	quaid: so you can add a preface?
Feb 14 05:57:27 *	stickster lost
Feb 14 05:57:29 <jsmith>	mdious: Of course!
Feb 14 05:57:42 *	daMaestro (n=jon fedora/damaestro) has joined #fedora-docs
Feb 14 05:57:46 <SG_Logger>	stickster, +1
Feb 14 05:58:00 <mdious>	SG_Logger, stickster, what are you lost about?
Feb 14 05:58:16 <quaid>	well, again, if it's just me, feel free to
continue ahead
Feb 14 05:58:16 <stickster>	quaid's question about Book_Info.xml
Feb 14 05:58:16 <quaid>	I'll eventually catch up
Feb 14 05:58:18 <stickster>	Oh
Feb 14 05:58:19 <stickster>	nm, read buffer.  self.slap()
Feb 14 05:58:37 <SG_Logger>	all the above but in time i am sure i will
pick it up
Feb 14 05:59:05 <SgtDitt>	so...
Feb 14 05:59:12 <EvilBob>	SG_Logger: don't worry in the coming months
you will be up to speed
Feb 14 05:59:12 <SgtDitt>	iif i may]
Feb 14 05:59:20 <mdious>	stickster: Book_Info has information about
the book, such as product numbers, issue numbers etc (these are used
when building an rpm), Book_Name.xml is just a file with xi includes
to include your chapter files
Feb 14 05:59:21 <SG_Logger>	go ahead
Feb 14 05:59:25 *	andyfitz-
(n=AndyFitz 63-150-137-108 dia static qwest net) has joined
#fedora-docs
Feb 14 06:00:10 <SgtDitt>	the command "create_book --name MyBook
--brand fedora" will create a template, and workinng docbook file.
Feb 14 06:00:32 <mdious>	SgtDitt: correct.
Feb 14 06:00:43 <SgtDitt>	then you use any editor to replace the
templae information with your proper title...author...
Feb 14 06:00:46 <mdious>	using --brand fedora updates the Makefile
with "brand = fedora"
Feb 14 06:00:55 <SgtDitt>	to make an article...
Feb 14 06:01:01 <mdious>	SgtDitt: yes, you can use the Chapter.xml
file as a template...
Feb 14 06:01:15 <SG_Logger>	in the subfolder MyBook of the current folder
Feb 14 06:01:34 <SgtDitt>	do the same but "create_book --article
--name MyArticle --brand fedora
Feb 14 06:01:43 <mdious>	that might work...:P
Feb 14 06:01:45 <mdious>	it used to...
Feb 14 06:01:55 <SgtDitt>	it does. i tried it
Feb 14 06:01:58 <stickster>	yup
Feb 14 06:01:58 <mdious>	oh, I think it was set that was taken out
Feb 14 06:02:08 <SgtDitt>	so my question is....
Feb 14 06:02:15 <SgtDitt>	sorry
Feb 14 06:02:44 <SgtDitt>	do we paste xml to wiki for editing?
Feb 14 06:02:51 *	SgtDitt hiding from darts
Feb 14 06:02:52 <stickster>	SgtDitt: Nope
Feb 14 06:02:57 <stickster>	SgtDitt: But a valiant try
Feb 14 06:03:10 <mdious>	SgtDitt: maybe ask jfearn for a make-wiki target :)
Feb 14 06:03:10 <stickster>	SgtDitt: You can start on the wiki and
move to Docbook
Feb 14 06:03:17 <stickster>	mdious: XXX
Feb 14 06:03:21 <SgtDitt>	NO!
Feb 14 06:03:30 <stickster>	The problem with going to the wiki is you
lose lots of metadata.
Feb 14 06:03:39 <SgtDitt>	i want to use docbook, just trying to see
how the 2 tie together
Feb 14 06:03:41 <Tsagadai>	or we could skip the wiki  step and use
docbook xml...
Feb 14 06:03:45 <mdious>	have you ever gone from xml to the wiki? I
thought it was the other way around...
Feb 14 06:03:46 <stickster>	The wiki doesn't know the difference
between <computeroutput>, <package>, and <command> for example.
Feb 14 06:03:58 <SgtDitt>	bad example
Feb 14 06:04:02 <stickster>	The wiki only knows (e.g.)  {{{hi there}}}
Feb 14 06:04:13 <quaid>	why wiki?
Feb 14 06:04:14 <stickster>	So you can start on the wiki, then bring
it *into* DocBook, and then stay there
Feb 14 06:04:22 <quaid>	I can say why in a few lines, if we want to digress
Feb 14 06:04:30 <jsmith>	jfearn: Quick question... what about paper
sizes for PDF output?  How do I get it to do letter instead of A4?
Feb 14 06:05:07 <SgtDitt>	from reading the web site, it says edit in
wiki so others can contribute. but i'm cool with just docbook and cvs
Feb 14 06:05:30 <stickster>	Wiki is great for getting the most people
able to help write at one time.
Feb 14 06:05:32 <jfearn>	jsmith, ohh we never had to deal with that,
so we'd have to add that functionality
Feb 14 06:05:47 <quaid>	SgtDitt: you can, it's just that the numbers
of contributors that use the wiki and will use the wiki are 10x or
more what we can get in XML
Feb 14 06:05:58 <SgtDitt>	but you end up with 2 doc branches. wiki and docbook
Feb 14 06:05:58 <jsmith>	jfearn: /etc/papersize is a good place to start ;-)
Feb 14 06:06:06 <quaid>	it's a community docs drafting space
Feb 14 06:06:08 <SgtDitt>	then you have to manually merge info
Feb 14 06:06:19 <jsmith>	Yes
Feb 14 06:06:23 <quaid>	hmm, sort of
Feb 14 06:06:26 <jfearn>	jsmith, I was told letter is dead ;)
Feb 14 06:06:27 <quaid>	only for the release notes
Feb 14 06:06:27 <Tsagadai>	yes but the fact remains that in it's
present form the wiki is not accessible enough for just anyone to
contribute
Feb 14 06:06:38 <quaid>	Docs/Beats is the "rawhide"
Feb 14 06:06:43 *	Tsagadai points at hoops that need jumping before access
Feb 14 06:06:51 <jsmith>	jfearn: Funny... I was told the same about A4 ;-)
Feb 14 06:06:57 <stickster>	jfearn: There's params available for that
in the docbook xsl too;
Feb 14 06:06:59 <quaid>	but a guide like the
Docs/Drafts/AdministrationGuide is converted to XML and maintained in
that form
Feb 14 06:07:06 <quaid>	the next version might come from the wiki
Feb 14 06:07:10 <stickster>	For e.g. => FO
Feb 14 06:07:31 <jfearn>	stickster, yeah, I'd just add a parameter to
te Makefile for people to override the all conquering A4 ;)
Feb 14 06:07:53 <stickster>	jfearn: This was something that came up on
fedora-devel recently too.
Feb 14 06:07:58 <SgtDitt>	i like ansi f at my age
Feb 14 06:08:12 <jsmith>	jfearn: One other minor note... the
documentation.png file still calls it "Documentation-devel" instead of
"Publican"
Feb 14 06:08:16 <stickster>	That anaconda ought to try to do the right
thing about setting paper size depending on locale
Feb 14 06:08:42 <quaid>	Tsagadai: all of those improvements for the
wiki access are in the works; short delivery time (March) for most of
the important stuff
Feb 14 06:08:53 <jfearn>	jsmith, yeah, I figured it would end up being
fedora docs team or something
Feb 14 06:09:04 <stickster>	jfearn: Maybe you can get the Fedora art
team to design a cool Publican logo
Feb 14 06:09:05 <Tsagadai>	including anonymous access I hope
Feb 14 06:09:24 <stickster>	I want it to look just like the fat guy
who reads the scrolls in HBO's "Rome" series
Feb 14 06:09:25 <jsmith>	jfearn: Yeah, probably so for the Fedora brand...
Feb 14 06:09:53 <Tsagadai>	stickster, that's Ian McNiece :)
Feb 14 06:09:59 <stickster>	Right
Feb 14 06:09:59 <jfearn>	stickster, lolz, a fat guy with a beer!
Feb 14 06:10:00 <stickster>	I love him.
Feb 14 06:10:05 <Tsagadai>	so do i
Feb 14 06:10:06 <andyfitz->	stickster,  now that we're settled on
Publican  i'm sure we can sort something out :)
Feb 14 06:10:12 <stickster>	I clipped a bunch of his lines for the
fortune on my blog.
Feb 14 06:10:13 *	SgtDitt is now known as mdittmeier
Feb 14 06:11:06 *	stickster is Mr. Pot saying "Mr. Kettle, you're black"
Feb 14 06:12:05 <stickster>	So, I don't want to break up the happy
party, because we're very happy to see RH Docs and Content Services
guys here
Feb 14 06:12:11 <stickster>	Should we figure out a next step?
Feb 14 06:12:18 <stickster>	Or save that until later?
Feb 14 06:12:41 <jsmith>	stickster: Would it be worth me pushing a doc
through Publican as a test?  Something like the crypto guide?
Feb 14 06:13:03 <stickster>	jsmith: Yes, that would be a great idea --
it's fairly short right now.
Feb 14 06:13:07 <mdious>	jsmith: that should work, but you would have
to update the book_name.xml to include all the separate files
Feb 14 06:13:09 <Tsagadai>	go for it jsmith
Feb 14 06:13:17 <stickster>	jsmith: So that would be wiki --> DocBook
--> publican --> {targets...}
Feb 14 06:13:17 <jsmith>	mdious: That's not a problem
Feb 14 06:13:19 <stickster>	right?
Feb 14 06:13:24 <mdious>	i never understood how to include more than
one file using the fedora toolchain...do edit the makefile with all of
them, or just use xi includes?
Feb 14 06:13:26 <Sparks>	The crypto guide has a little way to go
Feb 14 06:13:32 <jsmith>	stickster: Yeah, just like the current toolchain
Feb 14 06:13:40 <stickster>	mdious: xi:include is the way to go
Feb 14 06:13:48 <jsmith>	Sparks: Sure, but this is just a test...
Feb 14 06:13:51 <stickster>	mdious: Refer to release-notes or
installation-guide as example
Feb 14 06:14:00 <stickster>	jsmith: That would be great
Feb 14 06:14:01 <jsmith>	Or I could take the Software Management w/ Yum piece
Feb 14 06:14:02 <mdious>	cool, so in the fedora toolchain, the
makefile references one file (which i guess, is the same as the
book_info in publican), and...?
Feb 14 06:14:06 <Sparks>	jsmith: Yeah...  Should give you a comparison
to the SMG
Feb 14 06:14:10 <stickster>	jsmith: You should blog your experience
Feb 14 06:14:11 <mdious>	stickster: thanks, I have the install-guide here
Feb 14 06:14:32 <quaid>	SMG +1 for testing
Feb 14 06:14:37 <jsmith>	stickster: Uh, yeah.... I really should...
and then convince someone to make me a hackergotchi, and get
syndicated and all
Feb 14 06:14:48 <jsmith>	stickster: You really are gonna put me to
work, aren't you ;-)
Feb 14 06:14:49 <stickster>	I'll do the hackergotchi for you if you
send me a picture you like
Feb 14 06:14:54 <Sparks>	not sure how much jsmith already had done
with the SMG conversion
Feb 14 06:15:02 <jsmith>	Sparks: About 90% or so
Feb 14 06:15:13 <Sparks>	jsmith: You mean you aren't done yet?
Feb 14 06:15:16 <stickster>	doh!
Feb 14 06:15:17 <jsmith>	Sparks: It's mostly done, other than the editing
Feb 14 06:15:22 <stickster>	oh, snap!
Feb 14 06:15:25 <Sparks>	jsmith: :)
Feb 14 06:15:27 <quaid>	*cough*slacker*cought*
Feb 14 06:15:44 <jsmith>	Hey, the hard part is done... it just needs a
few eyeballs to wordsmith it
Feb 14 06:15:58 *	jsmith may even have a stray edit or two still on his laptop
Feb 14 06:16:00 <Tsagadai>	send me a link jsmith
Feb 14 06:17:39 <stickster>	OK, jfearn, how are you with outcome here?
Feb 14 06:18:17 <jfearn>	stickster, I'm pretty happy, people seem to
have the basics and will be able to play and ask questions :)
Feb 14 06:18:23 <quaid>	I'd love something committed to /cvs/docs/
that can build with this
Feb 14 06:18:38 <quaid>	let's get the s-m-g in there and do a version
that builds with publican too
Feb 14 06:19:07 <jfearn>	quaid, can it wait a week? I might be able to
get the internationalization guide for you
Feb 14 06:19:21 <jsmith>	I'll go ahead and get started with it tomorrow
Feb 14 06:19:23 <quaid>	Sparks, jsmith : I have to hunt-n-nag dkl
about the bugzilla name change for that
Feb 14 06:19:42 <quaid>	jfearn: let's let jsmith try it out and see
how far he gets
Feb 14 06:19:49 <Sparks>	quaid: Okay.
Feb 14 06:19:52 <jfearn>	cool
Feb 14 06:20:18 *	Sparks yawns
Feb 14 06:20:36 *	quaid sends up flares
Feb 14 06:20:47 <quaid>	Quaid .. needs .. food .. badly ..
Feb 14 06:20:54 <jsmith>	OK, I'll get started in the morning
Feb 14 06:20:55 <Sparks>	quaid: I have pie.
Feb 14 06:21:00 <quaid>	mmm pie
Feb 14 06:21:03 *	jsmith throws quaid a twinkie
Feb 14 06:21:07 <Sparks>	quaid: Cherry pie
Feb 14 06:21:12 <Sparks>	quaid: Made it myself
Feb 14 06:21:21 <quaid>	jsmith: bug here and/or the list if you get stuck
Feb 14 06:21:27 <quaid>	Sparks: you far from Orlando?
Feb 14 06:21:43 <jsmith>	quaid: You know I will ;-)
Feb 14 06:21:44 <Sparks>	quaid: Southeastern Virginia
Feb 14 06:21:45 <mdious>	yeah, if you get any errors just post to the list...
Feb 14 06:21:52 <Sparks>	quaid: far is so relative
Feb 14 06:23:00 <quaid>	true
Feb 14 06:23:13 <quaid>	however there must be something good here and
the carbon footprint on it has already been burned ...
Feb 14 06:23:13 <mdittmeier>	ha! we start flying from Oldano to VA in
march if you can wait
Feb 14 06:23:38 <mdittmeier>	s/Olando/Orland
Feb 14 06:23:46 *	quaid rips his bastardized publican packages out and
installs again
Feb 14 06:24:08 <SG_Logger>	Sparks,  so you are in my neck of the woods
Feb 14 06:24:12 <Sparks>	mdittmeier: Flying into what airport in VA?
Feb 14 06:24:15 <quaid>	I saw it all work on a different host, so it's
just me :)
Feb 14 06:24:19 *	jsmith is in VA too!
Feb 14 06:24:37 <Sparks>	quaid: It's always just you
Feb 14 06:24:56 <Sparks>	SG_Logger: Where are you?
Feb 14 06:25:04 <SG_Logger>	blacksburg
Feb 14 06:25:18 <Sparks>	Ahhh... Newport News
Feb 14 06:25:28 <quaid>	<= King of Pebcak
Feb 14 06:25:29 <SG_Logger>	opps you said SE
Feb 14 06:25:35 <mdittmeier>	Richmond airport
Feb 14 06:25:38 <SG_Logger>	i thought SW
Feb 14 06:25:49 <mdittmeier>	Spirit
Feb 14 06:26:05 *	mdious glares at red hat campers
Feb 14 06:26:13 <Sparks>	mdittmeier: okay... about an hour away.  Come
on down to the Newport News-Williamsburg International Airport... :)
Feb 14 06:26:17 *	jfearn pokes davido
Feb 14 06:26:32 <davido>	jfearn, what?
Feb 14 06:26:45 <Tsagadai>	boom! headshot
Feb 14 06:26:46 <davido>	I'm innocent
Feb 14 06:26:53 <jfearn>	daMaestro, just making sure you where OK, at
your age to much silense can scare poeple
Feb 14 06:27:02 <jfearn>	doh
Feb 14 06:27:05 <Sparks>	Okay, I'm headed to bed.  Thanks for the
startup on Publican!
Feb 14 06:27:17 <jmbuser>	Great intro!
Feb 14 06:27:33 <jsmith>	Thanks jfearn... I'm super excited
Feb 14 06:27:37 <mdittmeier>	yes, nice work
Feb 14 06:27:38 <davido>	jfearn, I'm just making sure you don't tell
any lies or blame us writers for anything
Feb 14 06:27:41 <mdittmeier>	+1
Feb 14 06:28:13 <jfearn>	thank for coming, I'm on the fedora docs
list, so if you have any questions that's the place to ask
Feb 14 06:28:18 *	pgampe (n=pgampe nat/redhat/x-2bb662e2e8dd7b95) has
left #fedora-docs ("Kopete 0.12.7 : http://kopete.kde.org";)
Feb 14 06:28:18 *	daMaestro makes some random cow noise
Feb 14 06:28:23 <SG_Logger>	jfearn, pretabenterkeyitis
Feb 14 06:28:32 <SG_Logger>	?
Feb 14 06:29:07 <jfearn>	SG_Logger, guilty as charged
Feb 14 06:30:36 *	mdious has quit ("Leaving.")
Feb 14 06:31:04 <stickster>	jsmith: Still there?
Feb 14 06:31:11 <jsmith>	stickster: Yup
Feb 14 06:31:16 <jsmith>	stickster: But not for long
Feb 14 06:31:59 <jwulf>	pants
Feb 14 06:32:35 <stickster>	It's in mah pants!
Feb 14 06:32:40 *	EvilBob had to buy pants for FUDcon...
Feb 14 06:32:45 *	stickster too
Feb 14 06:33:19 <EvilBob>	I wear Jeans or Shorts most of the time when
I am out of the house
Feb 14 06:33:39 <EvilBob>	when I am in the office yall are lucky we
don't do video chat
Feb 14 06:33:51 <SG_Logger>	and how
Feb 14 06:34:11 <quaid>	glezos, he saw where I work most of the time
Feb 14 06:34:28 <quaid>	one hand on the kettle or sauce pan, one on the keyboard
Feb 14 06:34:35 <jmbuser>	EvilBob: Number one reason videophones never
became popular
Feb 14 06:34:35 <EvilBob>	quaid: clothing optional beach?
Feb 14 06:34:39 <stickster>	cookin' wif FOSS, yo!
Feb 14 06:34:40 <quaid>	so I guess it's the little apron that would be
embarassing
Feb 14 06:35:03 <SG_Logger>	at work wears cargo pants at home sweats
Feb 14 06:35:16 <mdittmeier>	lol, come on down here to Miami!
Feb 14 06:35:31 <mdittmeier>	they were cool stuff (nothing)
Feb 14 06:37:27 *	mdious (n=mmcallis nat/redhat/x-e61566572306d77d)
has joined #fedora-docs
Feb 14 06:38:42 <stickster>	All right, I had a crap day and I'm gonna
call it one now.
Feb 14 06:38:51 <jfearn>	one last thing
Feb 14 06:39:25 <jfearn>	I have the packages branched for F-*, El-4
and EL-5, is it OK for me to try and get those packages pushed?
Feb 14 06:39:26 <BobJensen>	stickster: Good Night Boss
Feb 14 06:39:34 <jfearn>	f-8
Feb 14 06:39:47 <BobJensen>	jfearn: they built fine here
Feb 14 06:40:06 <jmbuser>	stickster: adios, amigo
Feb 14 06:40:07 <stickster>	Go for it!
Feb 14 06:40:14 *	jsmith is running it on F8 on both PPC and i386
Feb 14 06:40:17 <stickster>	jfearn: Thanks very much for your time today
Feb 14 06:40:23 <jmbuser>	+1
Feb 14 06:40:30 <jfearn>	probably some missing deps from the epel
repos, but F-8 should be fine
Feb 14 06:40:55 <BobJensen>	jfearn: I have only run publican-fedora
and publican through my shredder fir i386 and x86_64
Feb 14 06:41:05 <quaid>	jfearn: so they'll be in EPEL? rockin'
Feb 14 06:41:17 *	stickster looks forward to more partnership with RH Docs
Feb 14 06:41:24 <jsmith>	+1
Feb 14 06:41:25 <jfearn>	quaid, yeah, I'll probably have to get some
other packages branched for epel though
Feb 14 06:41:28 <stickster>	g'night all
Feb 14 06:41:34 <jsmith>	stickster: Have a good night!
Feb 14 06:41:35 <quaid>	ah, oy
Feb 14 06:41:38 <quaid>	joy
Feb 14 06:41:42 <quaid>	night Paul
Feb 14 06:41:46 *	stickster is now known as stickster_afk
Feb 14 06:41:49 <jmbuser>	good morning, good afternoon and good night
Feb 14 06:43:12 <jfearn>	I'm going to have lunch, I'll be back on
later if anyone has any questions
Feb 14 06:43:45 *	jfearn has quit ("Hasta luego muchachos")
Feb 14 06:43:50 *	jsmith is now known as jsmith-zzz
Feb 14 06:44:21 *	jmbuser has a log which he will attempt to post


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