FDSCo Meeting 2008-01-22 IRC log

[Karsten 'quaid' Wade]

13:05 < stickster> <meeting>
13:05 < stickster> here
13:05  * couf 
13:06  * EvilBob  
13:06  * jsmith is here
13:06 < stickster> great! Quorum :-)
13:06 < EvilBob> sweet
13:06 -!- stickster changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Project: F9 docs review
13:07  * Sparks is here somewhere
13:07 < stickster> OK, couf can talk about the AG status
13:07 < couf> OK
13:07 < couf> even DUG actually :-)
13:07 < stickster> Yes indeedy :-)
13:08 < couf> both AG and DUG are targeting release at F9-beta which is beginning of March
13:08 < couf> had a small meeting this weekend with the core group, meeting log and summary posted to the group
13:09 < couf> basic needs are input from KDE-knowlegable people for DUG and some server-fu specialists to check down AG
13:09 < jsmith> I'd be happy to look through the AG
13:09 < couf> both are pretty much on target as it is, so it's shaping up to become good
13:09 < stickster> couf:  What recruiting are you and the other writers doing to get KDE people to examine the docs?
13:09 < couf> core group is committed to "get it done" so that's very good
13:10  * stickster has found the only way to get developers focused is by pestering them politely, loudly and repeatedly
13:10 < couf> we've tried to get the KDE-sig on board but they don't have manpower available
13:10 < couf> so we're going to track some people on the fedora-list, and probably try and trick some upstream guys into checking our work
13:10 < stickster> Some blogging might be good...
13:10 < EvilBob> couf: I will see if I can pick anyone out of #fedora that might be willing to step up
13:11  * stickster tries to think up some other ways to attract eyeballs
13:11 < couf> EvilBob: much appreciated
13:11 < stickster> messages to KDE docs team?
13:11 < couf> yep
13:11  * quaid is finally here
13:12 < stickster> I know Fedora has a thriving KDE user community -- *some* of those folks have to be interested in having good KDE docs!
13:12 < couf> blogging might be a good one too
13:12 < couf> indeed
13:12 < stickster> If we can't get KDE love, what's the drop back plan?
13:12 < stickster> Is there one?
13:12 < stickster> Hi quaid!
13:12  * stickster hands over gavel
13:12 < quaid> hola amigos y amigas
13:13 < couf> not really, the idea would be to use the KDE docs itself, but they have different licenses
13:13 < couf> which could be messy
13:13 < quaid> exactly
13:13 < couf> GFDL iirc
13:13 < quaid> that would be the upstreadm suggestion, typically
13:13 < couf> yeah
13:13 < quaid> so ...
13:14 < quaid> we have to pressure within the project
13:14 < quaid> and kindly ask without
13:14 < quaid> +1 to fedora-list asking
13:14 < quaid> is there one person doing this seeking for KDE help?
13:14 < couf> we've got some work on XFCE too, btw (jmbusser is handling that)
13:14 < couf> yeah, marc wiriadisastra is doing that
13:15 < quaid> fallback == beta has GNOME only, work on KDE for beta2?
13:15  * couf hopes he got that name right :-)
13:15 -!- Irssi: #fedora-meeting: Total of 85 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 84 normal]
13:15 < stickster> couf: it's right :-)
13:15 < quaid> strikeforce++
13:15  * nirik is happy to answer Xfce questions as well. 
13:15 < couf> quaid: possible, yes
13:15 < EvilBob> nirik: thanks
13:15 < couf> the idea was to have both AG and DUG ready so we can tackle IG, relnotes etc after
13:16 < quaid> is there a schedule with milestones from here to beta?
13:16 < couf> not set in stone
13:16 < quaid> we need enough time to convert to XML
13:16 < stickster> For AG/DUG, maybe not -- for relnotes, http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/ has milestones for things like relnotes
13:16 < quaid> with training for new folks, so make it a bit longer
13:16 < stickster> sorry, redundancy
13:16 < quaid> stickster: just an internal schedule so we are on time
13:16 < quaid> that is
13:16 < quaid> don't miss an obvious dependency, etc. :)
13:17 < stickster> poelcat can help us with that if we desire.
13:17 < couf> heh
13:17 -!- antgreen__ [n=green at nat/redhat/x-7afb8a70da5dec4d] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
13:17 < quaid> couf: do you want final wordsmith and technical edits in Wiki or after in XML?
13:17 < quaid> i.e., where is it easier and does the other writers the most good?
13:17  * quaid thinks maybe wiki, from that ...
13:17  * stickster hopes he is not volunteering poelcat out-fo-turn
13:17 < couf> I think as it is now, we can have the DUG and AG ready by half Feb in wiki terms, which gives us a lot off time
13:18 < couf> quaid: would be best wiki-way, as to help for further versions, if me do them
13:18 < couf> s/me/we
13:18 < quaid> couf: can you make a draft schedule?  just working backwards like that
13:18 < couf> sure
13:18 < quaid> include X days (5?) for wiki edit, and similar for conversion to XML
13:18 < quaid> ok, we can get poelcat to add it to the overall docs schedule after that
13:19 < quaid> and jmbuser can use the template for the DUG
13:19  * couf adds to TODO
13:19 -!- jlaska [n=jlaska at nat/redhat/x-9326078e383ea5fc] has joined #fedora-meeting
13:19 < quaid> yeah, then we can get the schedule to correctly reflect when we do the IG and relnotes work
13:19 < poelcat> just open a ticket at poelcat.hosted ;-)
13:19 < couf> so just want to give a thumbs up to both marc and vladimir, they been doing terrific work
13:19 < quaid> nice!
13:19 < stickster> Who's the man!?!
13:19 -!- antgreen__ [n=green at nat/redhat/x-49e6128e5ad7196e] has joined #fedora-meeting
13:20 < quaid> couf: +1 to that
13:20 < stickster> couf: amen
13:20 < quaid> I've been trying not to overpraise and stuff, but they are certainly worthy of the Big Fedora Love
13:21  * couf ends DUG-AG status
13:22 < quaid> ok, relnotes prep ...
13:22 < quaid> 1. time to start advertising the Docs/Beats for other contributos
13:22 < quaid> 2. recruit more dedicated help?
13:22 < quaid> we need someone with eyes like mether 
13:23 < quaid> s/one/ones/ ?
13:23 < stickster> There have been a number of changes rolling in already
13:23 < quaid> yes
13:23 < quaid> here's the question from me ...
13:23 < quaid> we've tried the regular beat maintainers, and it is hot-or-miss 
13:23 < quaid> most of the work comes from a small handful
13:23 < quaid> what is the right thing to do from here?
13:23 < quaid> <discuss>
13:23 < stickster> blog blog blog
13:23 < quaid> s/hot/hit/ :)
13:24 < quaid> ah, nagmail++
13:24 < quaid> blognag
13:24 < stickster> Isn't that a town in Ireland?
13:24 < jsmith> Does it taste like eggnog?
13:24 < quaid> yes and yes
13:24  * stickster apologizes to any residents of the Auld Sod listening in
13:25 < couf> different approach maybe: starting from the features list and working through that to get the people behind them doing some content
13:25 < quaid> isn't there a section in the feature page for relnotes content?
13:26 < couf> d'oh, /me feels sheepish
13:27 < stickster> Ouch, wiki getting pounded today apparently.
13:27 < stickster> Yes, they each have a place for that content
13:27 < stickster> Doesn't appear to be filled in for at least some of them
13:27  * stickster hasn't counted but is not optimistic :-D
13:28 < quaid> couf: no, that is a good point
13:28 < quaid> couf: and another reason to blog, creating more attention :)
13:28 < quaid> poelcat: is completion of release notes/marketing spew required for a feature to be complete?
13:29 < quaid> this is the release we SWORE we would get the overviews synced and from one canonical source ...
13:29 < couf> ah that way it might be interesting
13:29  * EvilBob swears all the time anyhow
13:30 < poelcat> quaid: not exactly
13:30 < quaid> Marketing SIG may still decide to write up a higher level overview, but we can coordinate
13:30 < EvilBob> poelcat: fix that for F10
13:30 < stickster> Yes, we want to draw all OverView from one source
13:30 < poelcat> or at all :-/
13:30 < EvilBob> lol
13:30 < quaid> poelcat: :(
13:30 -!- kital [n=Joerg_Si at fedora/kital] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
13:30 < poelcat> the focus is really on "does the functionality work"
13:31 < quaid> well
13:31 < stickster> "If a tree falls in the woods and no one hears it..."
13:31 < quaid> that's more of a focus of a package set :)
13:31 < poelcat> and when a feature is submitted prior to feature freeze a lot of times those things are TBD
13:31 < quaid> a feature needs more than that
13:31 < quaid> well, needs to be completed by some point, not at the start
13:31 < poelcat> sometimes rightfully and other times procrastination? :)
13:32 < quaid> poelcat: would you agree to the concept of "release notes and some attempt at a lousy marketing blurb" as a feature completion requirement?  for the future, that is ...
13:32 < poelcat> quaid: i'll let someone else propose to FESCo that features be dropped if the release notes aren't complete ;-)
13:32 < quaid> ok
13:32 < poelcat> quaid: it seems reasonable to me, though I have a hunch the developers/maintainers may not agree
13:32 < quaid> poelcat: as Feature Wrangler, can you kindly ask folks when you interact with them to complete those parts by ... 
13:33 < quaid> and we can see how that goes
13:33 < poelcat> quaid: glad to
13:33 < quaid> if there is universal adoption and no need for onerousness, why wrestle with FESCo on it?
13:33  * stickster will raise this with bpepple
13:33 < poelcat> and if there are particular ones you want me to nag, send me mail
13:33 < stickster> At least we should alert him what we're doing
13:34 < quaid> stickster: my point, as I'm sure you know, is that Fedora is more than a bunch of packages that work together :)
13:34 < stickster> Absolutely
13:34 < quaid> k
13:34 < quaid> all: please blog wihin the next 10 days about:
13:34 < quaid> * relnotes beats (Docs/Beats/)
13:34 < quaid> 0r * features content
13:34 < quaid> or * new beat writers
13:35 < quaid> anything else on this topic?
13:35 < couf> what needs to be done for the one-page relnotes?
13:35  * quaid waits for stickster ...
13:35 < stickster> Is there any concern about us now being another RH bureaucratic layer strangling poor, hapless developers who are trying to GTD?
13:36 < quaid> couf: hold that thought one sec ...
13:36 < quaid> stickster: but we are Fedora!!! :)
13:36 < quaid> stickster: for the features request?
13:36 < stickster> And you can too
13:36 < stickster> Right
13:36 < quaid> here's the thing, IMNSHO about features
13:36 < quaid> if you want to call yourself a feature and get the attention
13:36 < quaid> it means more than just completing shit and making it work on time
13:36 < jsmith> stickster: "I am Fedora and You Can Too"?
13:36 < stickster> jsmith: exactly
13:37 < quaid> it means you are willing to be called up to the stage in a conference to talk about it
13:37 < quaid> it means you are willing to be a community leader about it
13:37 < jsmith> stickster: That's the title of your next blog post, btw
13:37 < quaid> it means you are willing to do the marketing, sales, etc.
13:37 < stickster> jsmith: obsolete already I think
13:37 < stickster> quaid: +1, just FYI
13:37 < quaid> if not, then don't ask Fedora to "care" about your feature enough to devote so much time to it
13:37 < quaid> that's my thinking :)
13:37 < couf> +1
13:37 < stickster> We're just making sure that people watching this channel know *why* we're asking for this.
13:37 < jsmith> If it's worth writing, it's worth documenting/marketing/plugging
13:37 < stickster> Exactly.
13:38 < quaid> jsmith +1
13:38 < stickster> So, all you eavesdroppers -- make us care!
13:38 < couf> that's the idea :-)
13:38 < jmtaylor> should that be something that get added to the feature form? a note about expected commitment?
13:38 < quaid> stickster: thanks for the excuse to rant, though :)
13:38 < stickster> quaid: NP, I live to serve.
13:38 < quaid> jmtaylor: good question; not sure if that is part of the feature process or expectation, but I think it should be
13:38 < quaid> ok, now to couf's question ...
13:38 < quaid> the one-sheet
13:39 < quaid> we need content for it, and we can draw that from the existing state of Docs/Beats
13:39 < quaid> so we don't have to recruit for it, but we might want to.
13:40 < quaid> as a reminder of what the one-sheet is ...
13:40 < quaid> this is a single Wiki page that we can link from the alpha, beta ISOs
13:40 < quaid> so we can change it up to the last minute, link updated bug reports from it, etc.
13:41 < quaid> it also is a quick-overview of what is in this alpha, beta that is noteworthy
13:41 < quaid> supposed to be lower-impact work to Docs compared to what we did before, which was a full run from Wiki => XML + translation for each test release
13:41 < quaid> *whew*
13:42 < quaid> so, in many ways, the content "belongs" to release eng (f13), features (poelcat), etc.
13:42 < stickster> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/8/Test/F8Test2/ReleaseNotes
13:42 < couf> quaid you steal my words
13:42 < couf> but do continue
13:42 < quaid> couf: maybe I should stop talking :)
13:42 < quaid> stickster: F8Test?
13:43 < stickster> That's the last one-sheet we did for the previous cycle
13:43 < quaid> oh, right, sorry
13:43  * quaid is lost in version numbering
13:43 < stickster> Just for reference in case people haven't seen that one
13:43 < stickster> There's a lot of copy/paste material in there.
13:43 < quaid> so we need Releases/9/Alpha/ReleaseNotes
13:44 < poelcat> quaid: good reminder for me to ping the feature owners for a status update
13:44 < couf> yeah, so same counts here: get blogging, news-spreading and let the people behind it create the content :-)
13:44 < stickster> Thank you poelcat: http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-9/f-9-docs-details.html
13:44  * stickster notes the dates are a bit off because of the 1-week Alpha slide
13:45 < poelcat> stickster: i'll fix that
13:45 < stickster> poelcat: Thanks! :-)
13:45 < stickster> Fortunately it hasn't rippled
13:45 < poelcat> that's what I get for lurking on this channel... more action items :)
13:46 < quaid> heh
13:46 < stickster> poor poelcat
13:46  * EvilBob thinks that is how he became FDSCo
13:46 < stickster> Oh my, we're 40 minutes in and haven't covered a few other items
13:47 < quaid> yep, let's move on
13:47 < stickster> quaid and I have to bail in time to make the next meeting :-D
13:47 < quaid> aye
13:47 < quaid> ok, so IG
13:47 < stickster> So... IG. :-)
13:47 < quaid> two approaches:
13:47 < quaid> 1. raw recruit
13:47 < stickster> I can definitely *help*
13:47 < quaid> 2. build on what is working so far
13:48 < quaid> what I mean by 2 is, let's old and new hands make sure the AG and DUG hit their target, then that frees *all* of us up to split up the IG work
13:48 < quaid> in there we build the skills to do the relnotes work, as well
13:48 < stickster> right
13:48 < quaid> (which coinicidentally leads to the next agenda item :)
13:48 < couf> that's the basic goal yes
13:48 < stickster> Hey, how'd *that* get there?!?
13:48 < quaid> stickster: can you advertise for a co-maintainer who will take over post F9?
13:48 < stickster> jsmith is too modest
13:48 < stickster> quaid: absosmurfly
13:48 < quaid> and then set the expectation that you are there to mentor and the group is there to help?
13:49 < jsmith> stickster: Who, me?
13:49 < stickster> Yeah, you!
13:49 < stickster> quaid: +1
13:49 < stickster> That will be blog #2 tonight
13:49  * stickster already preparing blog #1 for relnotes
13:50 < EvilBob> stickster: I am willing to take that on if you mentor me, I do as many or more installs in a release lifetime as anyone
13:50 < EvilBob> stickster: plus I really need a document
13:50 < EvilBob> stickster: talking about the IG
13:50 < couf> EvilBob++
13:50 < jsmith> :-)
13:51 < stickster> I am here to help whoever wants to take it on
13:51 < stickster> It's not *quite* as bad as it seems, honestly
13:51 < couf> jsmith: has the yum-guide :-)
13:51 < quaid> sorry, had to pay the heater repair fella
13:52 < quaid> ok, last item
13:52 < quaid> training
13:52 < quaid> we are doing a ton more wiki2xml this time
13:52 < quaid> so we really need a process, how-to, etc.
13:52 -!- loupgaroublond [n=yankee at pool-71-182-215-182.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #fedora-meeting
13:52 < jsmith> quaid: Agreed!
13:52 < jsmith> quaid: I'm happy to help write that, after I finish wrapping my head around it all
13:53 < quaid> let's cobble together our notes this week and have it as an action/task to have a beta usable how-to by next week?
13:53 < stickster> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Tools/Wiki2XML
13:53 < stickster> May just need to be refreshed
13:53 < jsmith> Fair enough
13:53 < quaid> yeah
13:53 < couf> +1
13:53 < jsmith> stickster: Why didn't you show me that last week?
13:53  * jsmith ducks
13:53 < quaid> that page + how-to with steps
13:53 < stickster> jsmith: Oops, I just remembered it because quaid triggered my supermnemonic memory with the title meme
13:53 < quaid> jsmith: leaky carpenter's roof?
13:54 < quaid> ironically ... I named that page, too, and forgot about it
13:54  * quaid updates WorkFlow
13:54 < stickster> This very topic is one that jsmith and I were working on the other night with the yum guide
13:54 < jsmith> quaid: The cobbler's kids have no shoes...
13:55 < jsmith> stickster: Speaking of which... I have a lot more things to go back through on the yum guide
13:55 < EvilBob> We do have another item we need to discuss, your successor, maybe next meeting or list?
13:55 < quaid> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/WorkFlow
13:56 < quaid> EvilBob: yeah, we do, let's go for the list perhaps
13:56 < quaid> we still need a meeting time where all can meet :)
13:56 < EvilBob> right
13:57 < couf> so anything left?
13:58 < EvilBob> OK </meeting> ?
13:58 < quaid> nope
13:58 < quaid> 5
13:58 < quaid> 4
13:58 < quaid> 3
13:58 < quaid> 2
13:58 < quaid> last chance!
13:58 < quaid> 1
13:58 < quaid> </meeting>

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