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FDSCo Meeting 2008-07-16 IRC log



<stickster> <meeting>
<stickster> Roll call!
<ianweller> 
* ianweller none
<spevack> 
* spevack is just an hour early for the fedora emea meeting :)
<ianweller> hell of a meeting, so it seems. ;))
<spevack> 
* spevack wants to write a document entitled "how to be snarky in 8 easy steps"
<stickster> spevack: You just did it in 1, my friend
<jsmith> 
* jsmith sneaks in
* stickster gives 60 seconds for straggler
<stickster> *stragglers
<stickster> OK
--- stickster (n=nnnnnpfr fedora/stickster) changed topic: Fedora Docs meeting -- agenda: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Meetings -- Release Notes
<stickster> Did people get a chance to read my recent brain dump to the list?
<nim-nim> I'll be in and out nearby if you need me
<stickster> http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2008-July/msg00014.html
<stickster> and http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2008-July/msg00024.html
<stickster> Let me give you the big picture first
<stickster> Release Notes are *IMPORTANT*
<stickster> We have the best ones in the business.
<stickster> The IRC ops use them *constantly* to help people
<stickster> And they're at risk for F10 if we don't start doing work now.
<stickster> We basically need several things:
<stickster> 1. Update responsibility list for beats
<stickster> 2. Revamp build process
<stickster> Who can take the lead on flushing the beat ownership?  That is, finding out if the person listed as a beat owner is still doing the job, and then updating our ownership record so we can find new people?
<jsmith> 
* jsmith is happy to help out with build process 
<stickster> jsmith: Noted, awesome!
<stickster> #1 is a simpler but just as important task
<ianweller> i don't think i can commit to very many things right now until i figure out my work load at school when it starts in a month :(
<stickster> ianweller: Understood.
* stickster realizes our attendance is light, and the people here right now can't do all the work. Part of this is "for the record."
<ianweller> for the record, get to work, people who aren't here. /me shakes fist
<ianweller> ;)
<stickster> that's one way to motivate :-D
<stickster> Typically, mether ends up coming in and revamping all the release notes at the last minute because beat writers aren't there to do the work. The *concept* is strong. FWN proves it every week.
<stickster> We need to execute the same strategy well, since we started the doggone concept.
<stickster> OK, 'nuff said. jsmith, thanks for the offer of help for the build process, I'm going to take you up on it.
<stickster> jsmith: Along those lines, I need help scoping the project and editing/entering milestones and tickets in Trac that are sensible and will help us track the work.
<jsmith> OK... I'll do what I can.
<jsmith> Haven't ever done much with trac before, but I'm happy to learn
<stickster> jsmith: It's dead simple.
<jsmith> Gotcha
<stickster> jsmith: Let's take this offline and try and do a little bit either after this meeting, or agree on a scheduled time
<jsmith> OK, sounds good
<stickster> (at your convenience of course)
<quaid> oi amigos
<stickster> Anything further on Release Notes?
<stickster> quaid: ^^  "Danger Will Robinson" message proceeding.
<stickster> Oh lord.
<stickster> *preceding.
<stickster> OK
--- stickster (n=nnnnnpfr fedora/stickster) changed topic: Fedora Docs meeting -- agenda: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Meetings -- Project triage
<stickster> quaid: I hand the gavel to you sir
<quaid> 
* quaid up on the buffer now
<quaid> triage ... as in?
<stickster> Two things immediately came to mind for me:
<stickster> (1) Bugs in bugzilla, some languishing. Are the owned by people who can/will take care of them?
<quaid> ah, hmm
<stickster> (2) More generally, project progress.  Compare and contrast FDP in 2003 to FDP in 2008. Are we achieving what we should as an official subproject?
<quaid> heh, yeah
<quaid> so, on the first
<quaid> we need a triage effort on just that, yeah
<quaid> 
* quaid battling sudden ennui
* stickster dumps link here for reference: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/buglist.cgi?query_format=&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr&short_desc=&product=Fedora+Documentation&version=&component=&query_format=advanced&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=NEEDINFO&bug_status=MODIFIED&long_desc_type=allwordssubstr&long_desc=&bug_file_loc_type=allwordssubstr&bug_file_loc=&status_whiteboard_type=allwordssubstr&status_whiteboard=&fixed_in_type=allwordssubstr&fixed_in=&qa_whiteboard_type=allwordssubstr&qa_whiteboard=&keywords_type=allwords&keywords=&bugidtype=include&bug_id=&emailtype1=exact&email1=&emailtype2=exact&email2=&votes=&changedin=&chfieldfrom=&chfieldto=Now&chfieldvalue=&cmdtype=doit&order=Reuse+same+sort+as+last+time&field0-0-0=noop&type0-0-0=noop&value0-0-0=
<buggbot> (at bugzilla.redhat.com)
<stickster> oh criminy
<stickster> sorry :-D
<stickster> Thank you buggbot
<stickster> I spent about three hours or so a couple weekends back clearing out about half the bugs in my queue, which was useful
<quaid> what about making next week's meeting a working meeting to triage bugs?
<stickster> I'm down with that, anyone else available to help?"
<jds2001> did i hear you guys need triage?? :)
<quaid> :D
<stickster> jds2001: heh
<stickster> jds2001: We need people.
<stickster> jds2001: Hey wait... YOU'RE people!!!
<nim-nim> jds2001: and fonts :p
<quaid> jds2001: I was hesitating to ask, but take a look at that buggbot URL above to see the scope of the problem :)
<stickster> quaid: In fairness, both these topics belong on the fedora-docs-list.  But I had spammed the list enough this week and didn't want to overdo it.
<quaid> yeah
<quaid> ok, here, I'll email that next week meeting is bug triage
<quaid> oh carp
<quaid> 
* quaid realized he probably won't be available next week
<jds2001> it's unlikely that I can make most of these - I'm stretched pretty thin with $DAYJOB right now
<stickster> jds2001: we were 1/2 kidding anyway, do not be troubled
<quaid> but the triaging concepts will help
<jds2001> take as evidence that they had me working 1 week after being operated on :)
<quaid> in terms of what is still viable, etc.
<quaid> 
* quaid mumbles about "they"
<stickster> quaid: Here's a directly applicable issue -- how long is our timeline for getting new contributors, via the stuff you're doing with Seneca?
<jds2001> if you need help (and have documentation about helping with the documentation :) ), I'm sure we'd be happy to
<quaid> I don't think it meshes well with F10 early work :)
<stickster> What is the date by which we would expect to see people coming in to Docs, and how many do you think that will be?
<quaid> ok, like this -- upwards of 25 coming in to Fedora, but we can't guarantee the interest just within Docs; some may want to embed deeper in other areas with Docs as the tie-back
<quaid> that is, these are (as usual) self-assigning entities :)
<stickster> Hm.
<quaid> our tasks list is a strong part of that
<quaid> I set the goal of having tasks updated by early August
<quaid> so we have a chance to get the Seneca wiki updated with links etc. throughout August
<quaid> and Sep is when classes start
<quaid> the goal then is to get ppl involved ASAP, right within the first weeks
<quaid> so by end of Sep, fairly full involvement as a partial component of classwork
<quaid> by Jan, all involvement == classwork (that is the co-op, work experience part of the class)
<quaid> how does that mesh with other timelines?
<stickster> Alpha is August 5. Beta is end of August iirc, and right now F10 final is still pegged for 29 Oct.
<stickster> quaid: But all of those dates I just gave are not meaningful unless we know that someone(s) in that group will come in to help with our particular Docs targets.
<stickster> i.e. help with relnote beat wrangling
<stickster> with IG updates
<quaid> I can reckon that, yes, someone will
<stickster> with wiki gardening
<quaid> I'm just saying it's hard to predict exact numbers :)
<quaid> but this is partially up to us
<stickster> Sure, but even two people would be about twice as many as we've had
<quaid> if our task list is "relnotes, IG, wiki gardening"
<quaid> then guess what people will be doing?
<stickster> heh
<stickster> right on.
<quaid> yeah, so let's be careful about task scope; maybe be more granular in just those three areas?
<stickster> yes, agreed.
<quaid> and put all the other work (Sec Guide, User Guide, Admin Guide) as good for $later
<stickster> The other issue, project status is... probably a timesuck in this meeting.
<stickster> So I'm sorry I put it on there. I'll raise it on the list.
<quaid> hmm, ok
<quaid> looks like I'm not on booth duty on Wed at 1900, I'll just make sure Jack or Greg don't pull me in to some interesting discussion :)
<quaid> 
* quaid hopes there is good wifi at OSCON :/
<fugolini> hi
<fugolini> sorry but my internet connection didn't work
<fugolini> is there someone?
<fugolini> FAmSCo meeting
<quaid> fugolini: in 24 minutes
<quaid> Docs currently
<fugolini> ops sorry
<quaid> np
<quaid> ok, so, bugs ... OK to do a working meeting next week
<jsmith> Works for me... I won't be here :-(
<stickster> yup.
<quaid> and in the meantime, recruit heavily for beats
<ianweller> brb
<quaid> blog blog blog and so on
<stickster> quaid: Yeah, I have a blog post open for it too.
<quaid> each of us here needs to do recruiting across the board
<stickster> let's double up
<stickster> triple, even.
<quaid> and track that progress on Docs/Beats/
* stickster can't find beat assignment page... later.
* stickster motions to move on
<jsmith> 
* jsmith seconds the motion
<quaid> ok
<quaid> I'm about to have to disappear
<quaid> do we have anything else on the agend?  or other biz?
--- stickster (n=nnnnnpfr fedora/stickster) changed topic: Fedora Docs meeting -- agenda: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Meetings -- Misc notese
--- stickster (n=nnnnnpfr fedora/stickster) changed topic: Fedora Docs meeting -- agenda: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Meetings -- Misc notes
<stickster> odfpy and python-mwlib packages.
<stickster> These give us the opportunity to turn MediaWiki into DocBook. About as effective as moin's was.
<stickster> Which is to say, not awesome, but definitely passable.
* stickster also notes that MW is extensible in that we can mark extra tags.
<stickster> I wonder why we don't get a Simplified DocBook XML tagset available in MW and use it.
<stickster> Then python-mwlib and odfpy could product X/HTML, ODT, and (later) PDF on demand
<stickster> If ricky, ianweller, mmcgrath were listening in, they might be interested in such a thing.
<stickster> I don't know if quaid is still here or not.
<stickster> efo
<stickster> oh crikey.... eof
<jsmith> I like the idea... just have no idea on implementation details
<stickster> jsmith: Basically, if it can be done with Python, then our Web geniuses like the folks above, and lmacken, G, and others could build an interface that would pump out the doc from the site.
<stickster> And our doc editing would basically all become editing on MediaWiki.
<stickster> However, that doesn't necessarily work for a couple guides like the Release Notes that need to be available in the build system, have really strict markup, etc.
<stickster> But it would work for the vast majority of other stuff.
<stickster> Anyway, worth a thought.
<stickster> eof
<herlo> 
* herlo is late
<stickster> herlo: Just read the above, we figured everything out.
<stickster> Peace in the Middle East at last!  Aaahh.
<herlo> if I was in MDT it would have worked actually
<herlo> stickster: w00t! about time that happened.  I thought we'd never have peace again!
* stickster gonna close the meeting unless someone has something further.
<stickster> AOB?
<stickster> 15..
<stickster> 10..
<stickster> 5
<stickster> 4
<stickster> 3
<stickster> 2
<stickster> </meeting>

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