FDSCo Meeting 2008-07-23 IRC log

[Paul W. Frields]

<stickster> <meeting>
<stickster> Roll call!
<Sparks> here!
<stickster> Sparks: Well heck, it could be just you and me for a little bit.
<stickster> quaid will be back here by about UTC 1915.
<stickster> Sparks: I'll start off with something not on the agenda
--- stickster (n=nnnnnpfr at fedora/stickster) changed topic: Docs Project meeting - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Meetings - (non-agenda) Features
<stickster> Sparks: IIRC, I got you together with poelcat for some work on Feature pages
<stickster> Have you looked at the revamping that we did to the policy stuff?  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Policy
<Sparks> I have not.
<Sparks> I've been on travel last week and this week and I don't foresee coming up for air until later this weekend.
<stickster> Oh wow!
<stickster> Yet you're here anyway -- thanks and sorry
<stickster> I forgot it was two weeks!
* ianweller_afk is floating around the channel and might be here or not
<Sparks> Yeah... Been to DC and to Florida
* stickster ducks the floating head of ianweller_afk
<ianweller_afk> wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
<ianweller_maybea> darn
<stickster> Sparks: Well, there's a further refinement to the policy that John will be pushing through FESCo this week
<stickster> It changes the way the queue works
<Sparks> Interesting.
<stickster> Hopefully the result means a less confusing process for everyone
* Sparks needs to read up on this
<stickster> Sparks: Let me see if I can find you a URL
<stickster> Sparks: Hm, just hit me up after this, I'll look later
<stickster> Sparks: Anyway, I'm assuming you're still planning on helping John with some of this work
<Sparks> ok
<Sparks> I am
<stickster> cool!
<stickster> that's all, just a FYI
--- stickster (n=nnnnnpfr at fedora/stickster) changed topic: Docs Project meeting - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Meetings - back on agenda!
--- stickster (n=nnnnnpfr at fedora/stickster) changed topic: Docs Project meeting - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Meetings - jds2001 request for boilerplate
<stickster> http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2008-July/msg00040.html
<stickster> This is a bit silly for me to do this agenda if Sparks is the only one here.
<Sparks> Probably
<stickster> It's like me being in a room with one other person, yelling "Is there *anyone* here who will take this action item?"
<stickster> "*ANYONE?*"
* Sparks coughs and looks down as if to find something in his bag
<stickster> haha
<ian_maybeafk> hmm, productive meeting
<ian_maybeafk> ;)
<stickster> ian_maybeafk: Certainly it's fast.
<stickster> ian_maybeafk: I don't get it.
<stickster> ian_maybeafk: We have the easiest process ever now for getting involved. Everyone complained about DocBook XML. We moved to more wiki.
<stickster> They complained getting a wiki account was too hard. We took that barrier away.
<ian_maybeafk> hmmph
<ian_maybeafk> maybe it's the mediawiki syntax
<ian_maybeafk> i was going to create a mediawiki syntax cheat-shirt
<ian_maybeafk> where all the syntax info is upside down
<ian_maybeafk> (so you can read it)
<stickster> heh
<ian_maybeafk> maybe a short training video/screencast would help
<stickster> ian_maybeafk: AHA!
<fugolini> hi
<stickster> ian_maybeafk: Now you're talking.
<ian_maybeafk> \o/
<stickster> ian_maybeafk: I just happen to be well equipped to make such a screencast.
<ian_maybeafk> well well well
<stickster> ian_maybeafk: Sounds like I've got something to work on later today
<ian_maybeafk> of course, we still haven't decided on a wiki organization schema
<ian_maybeafk> which might be an important part of learning docs writing on the wiki
<stickster> *pffft
<ian_maybeafk> i'm assuming at this point there's no way we're ever going to completely flatten the wiki and go to complete categorization.
<ian_maybeafk> it seems almost impossible
<stickster> As long as we have a "move" function, I'm more concerned with getting people to actually participate in the wiki gardening.
<stickster> (which topic is coming up later.)
<ian_maybeafk> oh excellent
<ian_maybeafk> :)
<stickster> So jds2001 asked us for a boilerplate contact letter for FOSS projects -- one written by someone who was entirely focused on positive outreach, so that the person using the boilerplate doesn't have to edit themselves 10 times over to avoid offending the recipient.
<stickster> s/themselves/himself/
<stickster> I'll draft something and make it available for comment and refiling
<stickster> Release notes status!
--- stickster (n=nnnnnpfr at fedora/stickster) changed topic: Docs Project meeting - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Meetings - Release Notes status
<stickster> Has anyone visited the new hosted project site?
<stickster> https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes 
<stickster> Hmm, not compelling enough?
<stickster> We now have the release notes in that repo building successfully with publican.
* ian_maybeafk feels bad leaving stickster in a meeting with himself :<
<stickster> There are milestones set up in the Trac repo, but I need help -- mainly asking people to file "tasks" that they see aren't done.
<stickster> ian_maybeafk: I think Sparks is still here
<stickster> Maybe he's still looking for something in his bag. :-)
<ian_maybeafk> hehe
<stickster> quaid is supposed to be back shortly.
<stickster> Then we can, you know, talk to each other.
<ian_maybeafk> hehe
* ian_maybeafk goes to check out the magic in the release-notes git repo
<stickster> ian_maybeafk: I wrote some intro pages for how to use it -- keeping in mind that Docs people may not understand git
<ian_maybeafk> right-o
<stickster> ian_maybeafk: So it's a cookbook approach.  If something there looks really wrong to you, I can get you access so you can fix the wording/commands
<stickster> https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes/wiki/HowToHelp
* Sparks is here...  Trying to dodge the weather and reply to thousands of email that are still pending.
<stickster> hee hee
<stickster> Anyway, work is progressing steadily.
<stickster> And with that, we come to quaid's item on wiki gardening status.
<stickster> I've been doing some of this as I go along -- the Feature process was one such victim.
* ian_maybeafk notes his friend is here, so who knows whether i'll be here or not
<stickster> I received an email inside Red Hat from a developer who was having real problems navigating through the tangled morass of PackageMaintainers in the wiki
<stickster> So it would be good to visit those.
<quaid> sorry! network problems but we're on now
<stickster> I think the policy pages we want to stay away from.
<quaid> hi friends
<stickster> Hi quaid
<stickster> It's just you, me, partly Sparks and partly ian_maybeafk
<quaid> is Package* open enough ACLs?
<quaid> or do we get added
<quaid> ok, smooth
<stickster> quaid: It's Packaging* I think which is locked down a bit
<stickster> That's where the policy sits, and that's all pretty well written and complete AFAICT.
<stickster> It's the pages that point in there which are a bit of a mess.
<stickster> This page?  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackageMaintainers
<stickster> It's confusing.
<quaid> so just that page
<stickster> And it may not be the only one for developers of its kind
<stickster> crap, clauses out of sequence.
<stickster> And it may not be the only one of its kind for developers
* stickster notes that page contains transcludes/templates for each section
* quaid opens page now that greg is done shoulder surfing
<stickster> How can we kick wiki gardening in the ass?
<stickster> Get people to pitch in?
* stickster thinks we need an incentive.
<quaid> hmm, incentives
<quaid> easier?
<quaid> greg had an idea earlier today ...
<stickster> No, I mean like: prizes for wiki edits.
<quaid> use the Special: page that tracks "hasn't been touched in N time"
<quaid> and put a different, shaded/colored background
<quaid> and maybe a watermark -- a pink page --
<quaid> "if you see a pink page and think it shouldn't be active, then update it, or change it to red so that it needs fixing."
<quaid> something visuual
<quaid> and encourage people all over the place, help by hitting up these pages
<stickster> I think "encourage people all over the place" has been shown at this point to be ineffective.
<stickster> What if we were to offer a real bounty of some sort for this work?
<stickster> How could we create and track such a thing, and reduce the chances of gaming the system through things like whitespace fiddling?
<quaid> well
<quaid> start with the usuals and grow?
<quaid> that is
<quaid> make sure we highlight people who are kicking ass
<quaid> with auto tooling
<quaid> maybe a banner that rotates?
<quaid> then ...
<quaid> 1. recognition
<quaid> 2. ???
<quaid> 3. profit!
<stickster> Hm
<stickster> Well, I know it should be quite easy to grab the info.
<quaid> right, there is something already but I forget
<quaid> lmacken hack of somekined?
<quaid> I forget
<stickster> spevack just gave me the tipoff
<stickster> git://fedorapeople.org/~lmacken/fedora-weekly-metrics
<lmacken> oh yeah, I've been meaning to add more of those
<lmacken> that repo only has a couple of basic wiki metrics
<lmacken> but eventually i'd like to see it have bugzilla, cvs, bodhi, koji, etc
<quaid> ah, cool
<spevack> lmacken: i've done nothing to help you so far, either.  my apologies
<lmacken> spevack: it's cool... I've been engulfed in bodhi stuff recently.
<stickster> lmacken: Don't talk to him. He needs to study.
<stickster> :-D
<lmacken> haha
* spevack is "studying" for the rhce
* lmacken also started a class at boston college this week too
* stickster says, having just pm'd spevack several times in the last hour
<stickster> lmacken: So we were talking about...
* spevack cannot bring himself to care about several topics that are likely to be on the test
<stickster> tying this into an incentive somehow, maybe a banner that publicizes people's ass-kicking on the wiki itself
<stickster> or elsewhere
<spevack> current top 5:
<lmacken> neat.  I still would like to see us do that gentoo/suse/etc do in their Weekly news -- having a stats section at the bottom
<spevack> susmit
<spevack> pcalarco
<spevack> mspevack
<spevack> pfrields
<spevack> nim
<spevack> IN YOUR FACE, stickster
<stickster> Bite me spevack
<lmacken> s/that/what/
<lmacken> haha
<stickster> I'm gonna SO out-wiki you next week.
* spevack will make every dollar added to the fedora budget pages a separate commit
<spevack> so, that's $300 for $FOO.  +1 (commit) +1 (commit)
* stickster sends lmacken to ban spevack from stats
<stickster> oops, s/sends/sends patch to/
<lmacken> see, it's this kind of friendly coopetition that we are trying to create ;)
<stickster> That was two commits to the IRC log, can I count that?
* spevack places a watch on all stickster's pages, and removes one of the spaces between each sentence he types every time he commits
<stickster> D'OH!!!
<Sparks> :)
<spevack> stickster: you called down the thunder!  now you've got it!
<stickster> Two leaders walk in, only one come out.
* spevack recalls the time him and gdk did the giant sumo wrestling suit thing
<stickster> lmacken: What's the bot account message mean?
<spevack> i think i lost.  but i think he cheated.
* spevack goes back to studying... sigh
<lmacken> stickster: normal user accounts can only get at most 500 results from a given query... we need to run that script using a 'bot' account to get more
<lmacken> so those stats are not exactly accurate ;)
<stickster> right, it capped at 500.
<stickster> quaid: So, what's the next action on this?
* quaid done saying howdy to bryan che
<spevack> stickster: did i totally just troll an in-progress meeting?
<stickster> spevack: You did, well done sir.
<spevack> for like 5 minutes?
<quaid> we need a technology owner
* spevack runs in shame
<quaid> who can make sure we are gathering and publishing
<quaid> lmacken: since you are doing this for other stuff
<quaid> lmacken: do you want to prototype a full feed of stats like this from Docs?
<quaid> starting with the wiki pull and push to
<quaid> ... FWN, some page somewhere (fp.org top page?), ...
<quaid> where else?
<spevack> stickster: serious question for you:
<quaid> weekly post to fedorastats.wordpress.com to appear on the planet?
<spevack> i was planning on including metrics as a beat in Fedor aWeekly News
<spevack> but I thought it would be best to wait until we had more than jus twiki edits
<lmacken> quaid: sure, I plan on helping to elaborate the metrics generation stuff.
<spevack> which is why i haven't done it yet.
<spevack> should i continue to hold off, or just do it?
<lmacken> yeah, I think we should wait to have more stats from a few more sources
<stickster> hmm
<stickster> spevack: The only thing that makes me reticent is the fact that we keep showing up in the top 10!
<stickster> spevack: OTOH, we can issue a challenge
<stickster> Beat the FPLs and get a free ____
<stickster> Uh
<stickster> Maybe I should fill in that blank before someone else does.
<spevack> :) i tend to agree with lmacken, which is why I've waited.
<spevack> PONY
<stickster> Porsche
<stickster> spevack: All right, but the idea is solid
<spevack> we totally need to buy a fedora contributor a pony
<stickster> lmacken: Agreed on the stats
<stickster> This is sort of a side note to the larger question. Aside from this effort...
<stickster> quaid: What else can we do?
<stickster> quaid: Is there a high-level plan for the wiki gardening?
<stickster> High enough that people know where to start digging now?
<stickster> But low enough that someone can grok it?
<stickster> I find https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/WikiGardening
<stickster> But after the first few subsections, it's not task-oriented enough from the new contributor standpoint.
<stickster> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/WikiGardening/Tasks
<stickster> That's better!
<stickster> But how to know how to categorize?
<stickster> We are almost out of time here.
<stickster> quaid: Can you take an item to make the Gardening pages clearer from the new-guy perspective?
<stickster> Simple questions, simple answers
<stickster> I'm working on a few other Docs things at present :-)
<stickster> OK, we need to end this meeting I think
<AndreasR> stickster: no prob.. go on it seems to be funny
<AndreasR> without the pony thing
<spevack> AndreasR: do you want a pony?
<stickster> haha
<stickster> And with that...
<stickster> </meeting>


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