FDSCo Meeting 2008-07-30 IRC log

[Karsten 'quaid' Wade]

Pretty version at:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings/Minutes/IRCLog20080730

12:05 < quaid> <meeting>
12:05 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Docs - roll call, greets
12:05  * quaid is here :)
12:05  * ianweller 
12:06  * jsmith is here
12:06  * Sparks here
12:06 -!- abadger19991 [n=abadger1 at 65.78.187.8] has joined #fedora-meeting
12:06 < quaid> agenda is https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Agenda_for_Next_Meeting
12:06 -!- abadger1999 [n=abadger1 at 65.78.187.8] has quit ["Leaving."]
12:06 < G> I'm  here :)
12:06  * ke4qqq is here
12:07 -!- JSchmitt [n=s4504kr at fedora/JSchmitt] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"]
12:07 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Docs - Wiki namespaces discussion
12:07 < stickster> quaid: I just added something to that agenda
12:07 < quaid> ok
12:07 < quaid> http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2008-July/msg00092.html
12:07 < quaid> that is the RFC currently under discussion
12:08 < G> quaid: might be something to pull out my original e-mail to docs/websites too
12:08  * ianweller wonders whether we should say "Documentation Project" or "Docs Project" now that we're moving to spaces/full names
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12:09 < G> quaid: http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2008-July/msg00015.html - the original namespace discussion
12:09  * quaid was replying onlist too
12:09 < quaid> ianweller: people say Docs, like it or not, so I gave up on that a bit ago; but worth standardizing, yes :)
12:10  * ianweller wonders how google-friendly that is
12:10 < quaid> G: yes, but that is a bit farther down in the agenda
12:10 -!- mether [n=sundaram at nat/redhat-in/x-6f9c178ba5415a81] has joined #fedora-meeting
12:10 < G> quaid: errr the 'namespaces' got me, oop :0
12:10 < quaid> ianweller: hard to say; techie people seem to always use 'docs' but documenters prefer 'documentation'
12:11 < quaid> G: yep, sorry :)
12:11 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Docs - wiki page naming discussion
12:11 < quaid> that's what I meant :)
12:11  * ianweller googles for "fedora documentation" and sees if he gets DocsProject.
12:11 < quaid> ok, so are there any questions about the RFC?
12:12 < ianweller> we know why, and we know where to move things. how to do it though?
12:12 < quaid> one thing before that
12:13 < quaid> is everyone comfortable with Docs making this decision and putting it forward as done to the contributor community?
12:13 < Sparks> +1
12:13 < quaid> v. sending an RFC to f-devel-l :D
12:13 < ianweller> no. we have an RFC, we need a policy that contributors can follow, i think
12:13 < G> quaid: I disagree with mass transclusion btw
12:13 < G> (of content pages)
12:13 < ke4qqq> quaid: +1
12:13 < ianweller> i don't think what we have now is in policy state
12:13 < quaid> G: you mean, my idea of building a guide is mass transclusion?
12:13 < quaid> ianweller: right, but ...
12:14 < ianweller> and, to the new user, i think it's a bit confusing
12:14 < quaid> the biggest point of contention is going to be the stupid naming
12:14 < quaid> +1 that it is *not* a policy
12:14 < G> quaid: correct
12:14 < quaid> and needs sto be
12:14 < ianweller> that's a good "ok here's how we're *moving* it" page, but we need something that says "this is how the wiki is organized, deal with it"
12:14 < ianweller> yeah
12:14 < quaid> G: is it that much of a performance hit difference?
12:15 < quaid> I thought each section was separate in the db anyway
12:15 < quaid> ianweller: but are you comfortable with us making all that policy and not taking argument about it?
12:15 < ianweller> yes.
12:16 < quaid> I mean, the Packaging Committee has a process to get changes approved; this would be like that, don't just bitch on a mailing list but bring a real proposal.
12:16 < quaid> stickster: how about you?
12:16 < G> quaid: I think the difference is, it can pull an entire page in one query, where as for transclusions it had to keep making queries
12:16 < quaid> G: ok
12:16 < stickster> Sorry, there is a conversation going on here that I am trying to shut out so I can catch up here
12:16 < G> I may be wrong, I havn't had my morning coffee and I'm just running off memory :)
12:17 < quaid> g: it might have been a mis-guided solution to a non-problem; definitely we should set a policy on that, maybe a limit on the # of sections to transclude?
12:17 < quaid> G: ouch, sorry, it _is_ early there
12:17 -!- dwmw2 is now known as dwmw2_gone
12:17 < stickster> quaid: OK, the RFC is to use "real languge" for page titles, and categories to organize pages ?
12:18 < G> quaid: I think the proper solution would be to say: split the document in three bits or so (to avoid it getting too large)
12:18 < ianweller> G: split the document in, say, 20KB bits, so that it's unlikely for pages to go over 32KB?
12:18 < G> "General Policies", "RPM Issues", "Technical Policies" type thing
12:19 < quaid> stickster: ok, here's the question I asked you:
12:19  * ianweller still doesn't know what sort of performance hit transcluding lots of pages takes, and wonders if #mediawiki knows
12:19 < G> ianweller: I dont consider the 32KB rule as a general policy
12:19  * stickster apologizes, too many concurrent inputs :-)
12:19 < quaid> "Are we OK with Docs making the policy for wiki structure, including naming, and pushing it forward as "done until you formally help change it"?"
12:19 < G> the 32KB warning comes from some browsers not been able to cope with it iirc
12:19 < ianweller> G: well, right. so in my mind, anything larger than 32KB is right out
12:20 < quaid> ianweller: but you said Packaging_Guidelines needs to be one page :)
12:20 < G> ianweller: I don't know of any browsers these days that have such a problem
12:20 < stickster> quaid: +1 on that.
12:20 < quaid> stickster: ok! :)
12:20 < stickster> quaid: The day belongs to those who seize it.
12:20  * ianweller is a hypocrite again, damn!
12:20 < quaid> carpe seizem
12:20  * ianweller goes to get more tea
12:20 < quaid> ok, then
12:20 < quaid> just to recap:
12:20 < stickster> ianweller wants to eat his cake and have it too :-D
12:20 < quaid> * we agree we are empowered to do this
12:20 < G> quaid: I disagree with transcluding it, I'd favour logical splitting :)
12:21  * ianweller goes back through his head and rehashes out what he wants
12:21 < quaid> * we need to convert the Help:Wiki_structure to a policy page
12:21 < stickster> G: I think you can really do both at will.
12:21 < stickster> It's kind of a red herring issue.
12:22 < G> (It's currently 52KB so a split in two - General Packaging Guidelines, Technical Packaging Guidelines
12:22 < quaid> ok, that's later in the agnedna :)
12:22 < quaid> let's finish with page naming
12:23 < quaid> Ian's point on list about not splitting the P_G too small is noted/OK
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12:23 < ianweller> right now we already split P_G into different sections for specific languages, btw
12:23 < quaid> so, on naming
12:24 < quaid> an no Sub/Pages
12:24 < quaid> all happy with that?
12:24 < quaid> I think we need a bit of list discussion, too, fwiw
12:24 < G> I disagree
12:24 < G> I have a technical arguement too that I just remembered
12:24 < ianweller> is the no Sub/Pages a soft limit, meaning we still have Artwork/Join?
12:24 < ianweller> G: mm?
12:24 < quaid> ianweller: not a soft limit IMO
12:25 -!- dstimson [n=dale at 68-185-24-58.static.mdfd.or.charter.com] has left #fedora-meeting ["Leaving"]
12:25 < ianweller> quaid: same here. /me wants no slashes ;)
12:25 < ianweller> except in non-main namespaces
12:25 < G> Legal have asked us, to make sure Legal/* is read only to everyone but people in the Legal group, Packaging/* is read only to people except in Packaging group, we can't just shut them out
12:25 < quaid> I want to see one or another method, and tightly enforced
12:25 < quaid> G: how do ACLs work?
12:25 < G> I proposed separte namespaces from them at inception but was told "ewww thats ugly"
12:25 -!- Sonar_Guy [n=Who_Know at fedora/sonarguy] has quit ["Leaving"]
12:25 < G> *for them
12:26 < ianweller> G: can we ACL by category?
12:26  * ianweller presumes not
12:26 < G> quaid: Packaging/*
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12:26 < quaid> G: what about Packaging*
12:26 < quaid> and Legal*
12:26 < G> ianweller: nope, MW doesn't allow that type of call
12:26 < quaid> without the /
12:26 < ianweller> quaid: but then we might run into other issues.
12:26 < G> quaid: I wouldn't be sure, but I'd feel that was an ugly solution
12:26 < quaid> well, sure, if someone wants to write "Legally_thinking_about_open_source" they cannot
12:27 < ianweller> i *personally* think that namespaces could/should/must be used
12:27 < ianweller> for cases such as these
12:27 < quaid> ianweller: you mean
12:27 < quaid> Namespace:s
12:27 < quaid> not Name/Space
12:27 < ianweller> quaid: yes.
12:27 -!- spstarr_work [n=spstarr at 192.219.104.10] has left #fedora-meeting ["Ex-Chat"]
12:27 < ianweller> i am not sure how people decided that Name/Space meant namespace :/
12:27 < ianweller> (no offense to anyone)
12:28 < quaid> ianweller: ha!
12:28 < G> and you've got to consider that "Packaging:Foo" is going to have the exact same effect as "Packaging/Foo"
12:28 < quaid> ianweller: um, we had that term in general usebefore Mediawiki was born :)
12:28 < ianweller> quaid: oh ok.
12:28 < quaid> G: 'effect'?
12:28 < Sparks> In MW...  What's the difference between Docs/Page and Docs:Page?
12:28 < quaid> Sparks: search is in specific namespaces
12:28 < ianweller> Sparks: you can decide to include/exclude certain Namespace:s in search.
12:28 < G> quaid: yuckyness in Category sorts etc iirc
12:28 < quaid> Sparks: we can reset the default, but that doesn't change it for existing users
12:29 < ianweller> G: can't you fix that?
12:29 < ianweller> potentially with wikibot?
12:29 < ke4qqq> quaid: yes but you can change default search
12:29 < quaid> ke4qqq: not for existing users aiui
12:29 < G> quaid: we can change it for existing users
12:29 < quaid> we _are_ going to change it, one time we hope
12:29 < quaid> G: oh, ok
12:29 < G> quaid: I said that during one of the other discussions
12:29 -!- bpepple|lt [n=bpepple|@rrcs-70-62-4-107.central.biz.rr.com] has joined #fedora-meeting
12:29 < quaid> G: thx, I forgot
12:29 < G> quaid: but I'd perfer to hold off on that until we get the l10n wikis sorted
12:30 < quaid> here's my thinking then ...
12:30 < quaid> on ACLs
12:30 < quaid> if Legal needs a protected space, move it off the wiki
12:30 < ianweller> quaid: we tried pushing that to them at the beginning too
12:30 < quaid> if Packaging needs a guide that cannot be edited by the masses, move it off the wiki
12:30 < ianweller> since wikis are not made for ACLs.
12:30 < Sparks> quaid: If you start moving people off the wiki then how will anyone know where to look for inforamtion?
12:30 < quaid> Sparks: the wiki is not the sole source of info
12:30 < ianweller> but they certainly did not like that. at all.
12:31 < G> quaid: that in my opinion isn't a good solution
12:31 < quaid> Sparks: docs.fp.o/release-notes for example
12:31 < quaid> ianweller, G why?
12:31 < quaid> oh, they want the ease of a wiki but not have it be a wiki?
12:31 < quaid> get a CMS, I say
12:31 < Sparks> quaid: Yeah, which is one reason why I think people have  ahard time finding information
12:31 < ianweller> yes.
12:31 < ianweller> quaid: hehe
12:31 < ianweller> of course!
12:31 < quaid> Sparks: the wiki needs to link to the rest of the world, too' we cannot put all in the wiki, it sucks too much for content management
12:32 < G> quaid: that sort of stuff changes frequently and a wiki is a good way to display such information
12:32 < quaid> G: it actually doesn't change that frequently
12:32 < ianweller> (should we get some people who work on Legal/* and Packaging/* stuff's input?)
12:32 < G> quaid: parts of the Packaging/* area have a bit of turnover I've seen
12:33  * ianweller just had the idea of shoving the packaging guidelines into docbook, in a repo on fedorahosted
12:33  * ianweller notes that that idea is *not* going to be popular
12:33 < quaid> G: if they are active, why cannot they watch the pages like the rest of us do?
12:33 < quaid> ianweller: if they need ACLs, maybe that is the best thing
12:33 < quaid> here
12:33 < ianweller> quaid: i think so.
12:33 < quaid> here's what I'm getting at:
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12:33 < quaid> we CANNOT make our naming decisions based on these corner cases
12:33 < quaid> that are leftover from previous bad decisions
12:33 < quaid> in the previous wiki.
12:34 < quaid> we CAN make an exception
12:34 < ianweller> agreed.
12:34 < quaid> and allow Legal/ and Packaging/
12:34 < G> I think thats what we need to do really
12:34 < ianweller> (but only for now, imho)
12:34 < quaid> but, G, really, is it worth carrying on that travesty for all pages?
12:34 < G> for now anyway
12:34 < G> quaid: How about this:
12:34 < ianweller> there's a better solution, and we can decide on that with the respective name/space owners later
12:34 < G> * Allow Legal/ Packaging/ as exceptions for now
12:35 < G> * Approve Legal: Packaging: if they want it (but say it's an equally ugly solution) and recommend they incorporate stuff into the websites or documentation
12:35 < ianweller> +1
12:36 < quaid> +1, with the caveat that we can go get spot's input before entirely granting the exception
12:36 < quaid> (since spot is the dude leading both of those sections)
12:36 < ianweller> yes.
12:36 < G> * When the l10n wikis are put in, then change everyones default search to add those namespaces
12:36 < G> (and add the namespace then)
12:37 < ianweller> G: we need to i18n namespaces too, right?
12:37 < quaid> ianweller: it's just l10n, aiui
12:37 < G> no
12:37 < quaid> we use i18n to l10n the pages
12:37 < ianweller> well
12:38 < ianweller> what i mean is
12:38 < ianweller> change the name of the namespace into whatever it is for the respective language
12:38 < ianweller> just keep the same ID numbers in the database at the very least
12:38 < G> for most cases thats done, and it'd be a requirement of the l10n teams to do such a task before the wiki is created
12:38 < ianweller> excellent
12:39 < G> I've already discussed quite a bit of the implementation stuff like this with couf
12:39 < quaid> cool
12:39 < quaid> any more on this naming?
12:40 < quaid> do we think we have consensus here?
12:40 < ianweller> i think we're good.
12:40 < G> quaid: yeah, but we really need to look into the Legal/ Packaging/ stuff a bit more
12:40 < quaid> G: I know you mentally prefer Sub/Page, and I do think many people agree, but the l10n need in the end was a big persuader for me
12:40 < ianweller> then again, it's just the three (four?) of us talking about it, from what i can tell
12:41 < quaid> i.e., Artwork/Join has impedence mismatch with what that page actually is, Join_the_Art_project
12:41 < quaid> ianweller: carpe diem, etc.
12:41 < G> quaid: FreeDistribution is another one that uses ACLs on their subpage
12:41  * ianweller yawns
12:41 < ianweller> ;)
12:41 < G> quaid: it's a case of, I think in most cases subpages look nicer
12:41 < ianweller> G: so should we change your proposal from Legal/* and Packaging/* to whatever happens to be in the HNP ACL at the moment?
12:42 < quaid> wtf is FreeDistribution?
12:42 < G> quaid: the Free CDs folks
12:42 < G> they ACL a couple of the pages
12:42 < quaid> I'd want to go to each group and find out why they need ACLs
12:43 < quaid> well, a couple can be just done manually, right?
12:43 < G> even Infrastructure have ACL'd pages
12:43 < quaid> the exception is where an entire set of content needs ACLs
12:43 -!- alexxed [n=alex at conference/mozilla-summit/x-2b2f748cd8cfed4d] has joined #fedora-meeting
12:43 < G> quaid: correct
12:43  * G would really like to do away with HNP tbh, it's ugly
12:44  * ianweller would like to do away with any extensions we don't actually need (i.e., HNP) ;)
12:44 < G> it's an ugly solution to do something that mediawiki isn't designed for
12:45 < G> quaid: just sent you a /notice, don't know if you'll be able to read it, but if you can it's a list of the current ACLs
12:46 < G> ohhh forgot Licensing too, thats a big chunk
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12:47 < quaid> yeah, a few Foo/ exceptions is OK
12:48 < ianweller> with the mention that they shouldn't be exceptions, imho.
12:48 < quaid> mainly what I want is the general, open, edit-me content for contributors and users is a flat namespace, easy to know what to name, lots of categories
12:48 < quaid> oh, yeah!
12:48 < quaid> how about we create a bunch of stub category pages?
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12:48 < quaid> Category:Bug_Triage for example
12:48 -!- mether [n=sundaram at 59.160.127.177] has joined #fedora-meeting
12:48 < ianweller> so, Category:Bug_triaging_stubs?
12:48 < quaid> i.e., at least one for each ProjectName/ we are replacing with the renaming
12:49 < quaid> and advertise that as the category to use instead of the old SubPage/Style
12:49 < G> quaid: in some cases they already have a similar category, it'd be best to send wikibot over them - like I did for the Docs pages and rename them
12:49 < ianweller> i'm not sure if this is relevant right now but how nim-nim has been doing things for fonts is that he's been using the Category: page as the main page for his SIG
12:49 < quaid> G: right, let's do all that
12:49  * quaid adds that to the wiki gardening tasks
12:50 < ianweller> which i recommend against using Category:s as starting points.
12:50 < G> ianweller: that imo isn't using the category page for what it's designed to do
12:50 < ianweller> G: yeah
12:51 < quaid> hmm
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12:51 < quaid> makes it easy, though :)
12:52 < ianweller> it does, but it's not what we want, i think.
12:52 < ianweller> some projects will want to do that, most won't
12:52 < ianweller> and we need to standardize it
12:52 < quaid> we can recommend against it? or make a rule, not sure
12:52  * ianweller would make it a strong recommendation against.
12:52 < ianweller> if not a rule
12:53 < ianweller> i'd say that's up to you guys to decide
12:53 < quaid> ok, so ... 
12:53 < G> agreed,
12:53 < quaid> I think we've covered the top item on the agenda
12:53 < ianweller> in a record time of 53 minutes! :=o
12:53 < ianweller> :-o*
12:54 < ianweller> ;)
12:54 < ianweller> is someone logging/noting what we decided?
12:54 < quaid> ianweller: I like the idea of using the MW style guide as a basis, then noting the variations
12:54 < quaid> similar to what we do with GNOME Docs style guide, etc.
12:54 < quaid> ianweller: I'll take the summary task today :)
12:54 < stickster> heh
12:54 < ianweller> excellent
12:54 < stickster> quaid: Thanks
12:54 < ianweller> imho, people should be familiar with the wikipedia page naming guidelines *first* and then read our specifications
12:55 < ianweller> or, we can take wikipedia's and adapt them appropriately
12:56 < ianweller> quaid: iirc the next item on the agenda was namespace:s? or did we kinda sorta cover that
12:56  * ianweller was thinking maybe we should decide what should be the initial namespaces
12:56 < quaid> ianweller: yeah, we jumped over that, sorry
12:56 < quaid> but I think we can decide that
12:56 < ianweller> heh
12:56  * ianweller notes that Features: would be an important one
12:56 < quaid> hmmm
12:56 < quaid> I wonder if we have a bigger discussion here?>
12:56 < ianweller> we kinda do.
12:56 < quaid> should we worry about a proliferation of namespaces?
12:57 < ianweller> i think we should only approve namespaces if the content will not be considered documenation for end users or contributors
12:57 < G> quaid: It could potentially get too big
12:57 < ianweller> but otherwise, we need a hard rule one way or the other
12:57 < quaid> ianweller: yeah, that was my thinking in general
12:57 < G> ianweller: in that case feature pages fit into that rule
12:57 < ianweller> G: yes, they do
12:58 < ianweller> but, then so do theme proposals from the artwork team.
12:58 < quaid> so, no Features: namespace?
12:58 < G> err I mean, they fit into "documentation for end users or contributors"
12:58 < quaid> G: +1
12:58 < ianweller> how do they do that? i see them more as FESCo organization in my mind
12:58 < quaid> contributors work on them
12:59 < quaid> marketers use them to write from
12:59 < quaid> people read them to know what is coming
12:59 < quaid> etc.
12:59 < G> exactly
12:59 < ianweller> so we're going to just use the concept of putting 'feature' somewhere in the title and categorizing it appropriately as it is now?
13:00 < ianweller> like "Better webcam support feature for F10"
13:00 < ianweller> maybe even s/feature //
13:00 < G> well thats the way the rest of the policy is going, so yes
13:00 < ianweller> ok.
13:00 < quaid> ianweller: John maintains a set of categories
13:00 < ianweller> quaid: i know
13:00 < quaid> that is where to find the list ultimately, not by name
13:00 < ianweller> Category:FeatureF10Proposed or something like that
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13:00 < quaid> we're out of time
13:01 < ianweller> ack
13:01 < G> quaid: so do you want me to add the Meeting: namespace now?
13:01 < quaid> namespaces discussion -- to the list!
13:01 < ianweller> right-o.
13:01 < jsmith> +1
13:01 < ianweller> who should turn Help:Wiki organization (or whatever it was, i don't remember) into a policy?
13:01 < quaid> G: I'll reply to you on list giving people One Last Chance to argue, then we'll do it, sound OK?
13:01  * ianweller could, unless someone else wants to
13:01 < quaid> the last item
13:01 < G> quaid: good idea
13:01 < quaid> that we need to make up a skeleton release announcement
13:02 < quaid> anyone here interested in that task? or push request to the list?
13:02 < ianweller> what do you mean
13:02 < ianweller> "skeleton release announcement"
13:02 < quaid> sorry, for Alpha
13:02 < ianweller> oh ok.
13:02 < quaid> request from releng, basically
13:02 < quaid> I'll own that for now, see if I can find another doer :)
13:03 < quaid> all right, closing and getting out of the channel's way
13:03 < ianweller> ok someone's waiting for us to finish so /me moves to end meeting
13:03 < ianweller> yeah.
13:03 < quaid> </meeting>

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