FDSCo Meeting 2008-03-05 IRC Log

Thu Mar 6 23:19:30 UTC 2008

Mar 05 22:02:00 <quaid>	<meeting>
Mar 05 22:02:09 *	jsmith is here (Jared Smith)
Mar 05 22:02:13
<quaid>	http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Agenda
Mar 05 22:02:18 <quaid>	<-- Karsten Wade
Mar 05 22:02:21 <jmbuser>	John Babich
Mar 05 22:02:29 <EvilBob>	<-- Bob Jensen
Mar 05 22:03:06 *	quaid has changed the topic to: FDSCo meeting -
Agenda http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Agenda
--- Current Topic ::: Acccess to wiki and Docs content; what belongs
there
Mar 05 22:03:58 <BobJensen>	<-- BobJensen
Mar 05 22:04:11 <quaid>	stickster is Paul and he is here too
Mar 05 22:04:38 *	stickster can't keep up with all the usage patterns
for meeting roll call :-D
Mar 05 22:04:49 <quaid>	first point, I'm not caught up on last week --
I didn't see a summary
Mar 05 22:05:14 <EvilBob>	we have a new vice chair
Mar 05 22:05:16 <quaid>	but the first agenda item seems new and relevant
Mar 05 22:05:16 <jsmith>	We elected a vice chair
Mar 05 22:05:22 <quaid>	great! who?
Mar 05 22:05:23 <quaid>	:D
Mar 05 22:05:29 <EvilBob>	jmbuser
Mar 05 22:05:32 <jsmith>	jmbuser
Mar 05 22:05:34 *	quaid voted by proxy, hopefully
Mar 05 22:05:40 <quaid>	jmbuser: congrats, and more so, thanks!
Mar 05 22:05:45 <EvilBob>	nope we did not need your vote
Mar 05 22:05:45 <jmbuser>	The guy who didn't do a summary
Mar 05 22:05:47 <jsmith>	quaid: We had you down for voting for yourself
Mar 05 22:05:56 <jmbuser>	quaidL Thanks
Mar 05 22:06:16 *	quaid finishes the old business before moving on ...
sorry for the topic delay
Mar 05 22:06:21 <EvilBob>	4 of the 5 present voted
Mar 05 22:06:27 <quaid>	jmbuser: do you want to try to tackle a
summary this week?
Mar 05 22:06:37 <jmbuser>	quaid: Yes, I will
Mar 05 22:06:47 <quaid>	it is in fact useful for getting your hands
around what is going on, and also I like it because "whoever writes
history, defines history" :)
Mar 05 22:06:55 <quaid>	k
Mar 05 22:07:12 <stickster>	jmbuser: Also it's pretty important for
establishing action items. Who owns an item? That way we can point
fingers later.
Mar 05 22:07:21 <quaid>	word
Mar 05 22:07:23 <jmbuser>	_1
Mar 05 22:07:25 <jmbuser>	+1
Mar 05 22:07:46 <quaid>	ok, so back to the /topic
Mar 05 22:07:46 <stickster>	jmbuser: Summarizing as we go, if you
can't tell, speak up and we'll make sure it's assigned
Mar 05 22:07:48 *	stickster shuts up
Mar 05 22:08:04 <jmbuser>	stickster: ok
Mar 05 22:08:05 <quaid>	as it happens we were discussing the CLA and
wiki mess over on #fedora-admin
Mar 05 22:08:20 <quaid>	but it is the clear goal to enable people
Mar 05 22:08:28 <quaid>	to "sign up, agree, and edit" in one go
Mar 05 22:08:37 <jmbuser>	stickster is on record
Mar 05 22:08:50 <quaid>	so we are looking at a new era, where e.g.
#fedora helpers will be encouraged to use the wiki, etc.
Mar 05 22:09:30 <quaid>	what role does Fedora Docs have in that?
Mar 05 22:09:54 *	quaid knows his opinion but ... what is yours?
Mar 05 22:11:23 <jmbuser>	I summarized my opinions in my contribution
to the wiki gardening page
Mar 05 22:11:39 *	couf here finally
Mar 05 22:11:45 <quaid>	moin couf
Mar 05 22:12:14 <jmbuser>	Briefly, the wiki is good for collaboraive,
store-and-forward writing
Mar 05 22:12:38 <jmbuser>	Things like draft docs and the Fedora Weekly news....
Mar 05 22:12:43 *	EvilBob 's Day Care is open today... kinda busy
Mar 05 22:13:06 <jmbuser>	including capturing Release Notes beats
Mar 05 22:13:14 <quaid>	one challenge I see is the WikiEditing is
crucial to understand, and freaking LONG
Mar 05 22:13:42 <jmbuser>	quaid: The page itself?
Mar 05 22:13:42 <quaid>	and another is picking and enforcing namespace
conventions
Mar 05 22:13:55 <quaid>	should people put stuff under Docs/?  or under
Content_Area/?
Mar 05 22:14:00 <quaid>	jmbuser: yes
Mar 05 22:14:48 *	jpuellma (n=jpuellma at 70.230.182.0) has left
#fedora-meeting ("Cheese it!")
Mar 05 22:15:12 <jmbuser>	quaid: good question
Mar 05 22:15:24 <couf>	we might want to create a "short article",
draft real docs, faqs, ... sections in Docs/
Mar 05 22:15:38 <quaid>	we were just talking about that the other day
Mar 05 22:15:39 <couf>	or try to move documenation over to docs.fp.o
in a wiki ;-)
Mar 05 22:15:44 <stickster>	quaid: Do you mean, where should people
put random information that doesn't fit into a project?
Mar 05 22:15:53 <quaid>	stickster: sort of
Mar 05 22:16:00 <quaid>	stickster: project info == people who work on
a project use that
Mar 05 22:16:18 <quaid>	content area == all that random useful stuff
that isn't for the project workers, but might be about the project
subject
Mar 05 22:16:23 <quaid>	so e.g. Kernel
Mar 05 22:16:32 <quaid>	do we have /Kernel == only kernel maintainers
Mar 05 22:16:39 <quaid>	or is that for "how to do kernel shite"
Mar 05 22:16:41 <quaid>	or both?
Mar 05 22:17:06 <quaid>	and if it is how-to, should we have all that
under Docs/ ?
Mar 05 22:17:22 <quaid>	so, what Bob and I discussed the other day was
an NVR style of path
Mar 05 22:17:40 <jsmith>	NVR?
Mar 05 22:17:46 <quaid>	like a package
Mar 05 22:17:47 <stickster>	Name version release
Mar 05 22:17:49 <jsmith>	Ah, gotcha
Mar 05 22:17:54 <quaid>	so
Mar 05 22:17:55 <jmbuser>	we had someone ask where the F9 docs are
kept, indicating that it's less than clear
Mar 05 22:18:03 <jmbuser>	NVR would help
Mar 05 22:18:11 <quaid>	Docs/9/Virt/How-To
Mar 05 22:18:36 *	stickster thinks about how ill-suited wiki is to
this level of organization, compared to foldering on CMS
Mar 05 22:18:41 <quaid>	where is evilbob when I need his rememory! :)
Mar 05 22:18:53 <quaid>	stickster: meh, we do what we have to :)
Mar 05 22:19:15 <EvilBob>	stickster: Oh I agree
Mar 05 22:19:18 <jsmith>	Ah, the joys and pains of content management
Mar 05 22:19:19 <couf>	stickster: +1
Mar 05 22:19:19 <quaid>	we don't want these:  Docs/How-To/Virt;
Mar 05 22:19:19 <stickster>	If we're using MW for this in the future,
let's think ahead to how we can make use of its capabilities to do
this.
Mar 05 22:19:26 <quaid>	EvilBob: did I get that example in the right order?
Mar 05 22:19:30 <EvilBob>	stickster: but lets not get me barking up
that tired old tree again
Mar 05 22:19:35 *	jsmith things we need a completely new paradigm
Mar 05 22:19:52 <jmbuser>	MW = MediaWiki?
Mar 05 22:19:59 <EvilBob>	stickster: that is where my question started
Mar 05 22:20:09 <stickster>	a great mind...
Mar 05 22:20:10 <stickster>	jmbuser: +1
Mar 05 22:20:14 <EvilBob>	stickster: how does what we have now translate to MW
Mar 05 22:20:23 <quaid>	couf: so this is trying to answer your point;
organize by content-type, version, then method of presentation
(article, how-to, faq)
Mar 05 22:20:41 <EvilBob>	stickster: so we started thinking about
fixing what we got
Mar 05 22:20:45 <EvilBob>	got
Mar 05 22:20:49 <EvilBob>	I hate that word
Mar 05 22:20:52 <quaid>	have
Mar 05 22:20:55 <EvilBob>	have
Mar 05 22:20:59 <quaid>	jinx!
Mar 05 22:21:33 *	fabian_a (n=fabian at 84-75-160-95.dclient.hispeed.ch)
has joined #fedora-meeting
Mar 05 22:21:45 <EvilBob>	stickster: IMO we need more input from
mmcgrath and the others about how things will transition
Mar 05 22:21:58 <stickster>	EvilBob: That's not really a blocker for
organization, though.
Mar 05 22:22:11 <stickster>	Let's think about how we can better
categorize the content we have
Mar 05 22:22:13 <jmbuser>	The top-down approach is good for the people
having to organize the wiki...and search lets people just find it
Mar 05 22:22:30 <EvilBob>	stickster: well it is if all pages end up
looking like they are in a single directory
Mar 05 22:22:50 <stickster>	EvilBob: Nah, the search takes care of a
lot of that problem.
Mar 05 22:23:00 <stickster>	The depth of the structure is irrelevant.
Mar 05 22:23:03 <jmbuser>	Best of both worlds
Mar 05 22:23:07 <stickster>	Problem is, moin search sucks.
Mar 05 22:23:14 <EvilBob>	Moin sucks
Mar 05 22:23:17 <stickster>	If you know a page title, you can find the
page fast.
Mar 05 22:23:25 <stickster>	EvilBob: No one's making you bark, simmer down ;-D
Mar 05 22:23:35 <EvilBob>	we have said that for a long time, it is irrelevant
Mar 05 22:23:40 <stickster>	If you know some content, you can find the
page if you're willing to wait an eternity.
Mar 05 22:23:57 <stickster>	MW solves both those problems with a
full-text index that actually works.
Mar 05 22:23:59 <EvilBob>	yup
Mar 05 22:24:08 <EvilBob>	WIN!
Mar 05 22:24:23 <jmbuser>	Thn there are always external search engines
- make sure the wiki get searched thoroughly by bots
Mar 05 22:24:33 <jmbuser>	s/Thn /Then /
Mar 05 22:24:34 <quaid>	jmbuser: +1 about the top-down approach; we
need to enable an army of wiki watchers to help us out
Mar 05 22:24:34 <stickster>	So, we don't need to worry inordinately
about calling things by some long hierarchical title like
"Releases/12/ProjectFoo/DoingThis/DoingThat"
Mar 05 22:24:51 <EvilBob>	stickster: so my thought was, lets start
sorting, fixing, moving what we have in to some sort of sane dirctory
like organization
Mar 05 22:25:00 <quaid>	and the opposite has just been said ....
Mar 05 22:25:02 <quaid>	fight!
Mar 05 22:25:38 <quaid>	stickster: is it just my sense of order that
is afronted?  Because I think random page names like
Fedora12VirtQuickStart sort of suck
Mar 05 22:25:57 <stickster>	The names suck, but you're thinking of a
world where the name matters
Mar 05 22:26:02 <EvilBob>	now in some parts of the wiki because there
is not organization there are things duplicated
Mar 05 22:26:07 <quaid>	and from a management standpoint, how do i
know when there are holes in content without some tree to look around
Mar 05 22:26:16 <stickster>	Categorizing by search fixes all
Mar 05 22:26:22 <EvilBob>	and the info is not the same
Mar 05 22:26:27 <quaid>	EvilBob: +1
Mar 05 22:26:42 <stickster>	If you can't find it in an FTI, it needs
writing. If you find it twice, collate and reduce
Mar 05 22:26:51 <stickster>	s/an FTI/a FTI/
Mar 05 22:26:52 <EvilBob>	some is better, some is not so good, neither
can be obsolited because they are in different areas
Mar 05 22:27:18 <stickster>	Also, MW will tell you what pages
reference other pages.
Mar 05 22:27:26 <stickster>	Another lovely function that Moin doesn't offer.
Mar 05 22:27:36 <stickster>	Well, least not from what I've seen.
Mar 05 22:27:56 <stickster>	So I can ask MW, "Hey MW, what pages
reference Fedora12VirtQuickStart?"
Mar 05 22:28:00 <stickster>	Makes cleaning a lot easier.
Mar 05 22:28:11 <EvilBob>	the Packaging and contributing pages of the
wiki are a ... mess
Mar 05 22:28:16 <jmbuser>	stickster: good feature
Mar 05 22:28:28 <EvilBob>	and there is some AWESOME content there
Mar 05 22:28:28 <stickster>	EvilBob: Let's finish the discussion of
the organizing vs. not organizing first.
Mar 05 22:28:40 <EvilBob>	stickster: it is an example
Mar 05 22:28:41 <stickster>	By which I mean, I think I'm winning, fight back!
Mar 05 22:28:44 <stickster>	:-D
Mar 05 22:28:58 *	stickster puts on that cool Star Trek fight music
Mar 05 22:29:01 <EvilBob>	well I don't care
Mar 05 22:29:06 <stickster>	Well that's no fun then.
Mar 05 22:29:13 <stickster>	quaid?
Mar 05 22:29:13 <stickster>	couf?
Mar 05 22:29:16 <quaid>	stickster: so you maintain ...
Mar 05 22:29:17 <stickster>	WHO WILL FACE ME?!?
Mar 05 22:29:23 <quaid>	that namespace does not matter _at_all_?
Mar 05 22:29:27 *	couf needs to run, sorry guys
Mar 05 22:29:35 <jmbuser>	stcikster IS Captain Kirk
Mar 05 22:29:42 <stickster>	hahaha
Mar 05 22:29:51 <jmbuser>	Where's SPock?
Mar 05 22:29:54 *	stickster is totally just another bum, please feel
free to take him down several pegs
Mar 05 22:30:09 <quaid>	http://youtube.com/watch?v=Z1eFdUSnaQM
Mar 05 22:30:12 <stickster>	quaid: I say, take a look at wikipedia
Mar 05 22:30:12 <EvilBob>	it can either get organized so people can
find stuff or we can go back to the same old same, the wiki sucks we
can't find what we need and when we do find something there are 15
pages that say the same thing
Mar 05 22:30:13 <quaid>	Worst Fight Scene Ever
Mar 05 22:30:28 <stickster>	quaid: YES!!!
Mar 05 22:30:45 *	JSchmitt (n=s4504kr at p54B10D78.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
has joined #fedora-meeting
Mar 05 22:31:03 <quaid>	stickster: not sure if Wikipedia is a good
reference or not
Mar 05 22:31:09 <quaid>	it is a flat namespace, but I figured that is
from necessity
Mar 05 22:31:14 <EvilBob>	if the name space does not matter that is
fine, I will shut up about it
Mar 05 22:31:20 <quaid>	wikipedia is a thousand miles wide and 2 inches deep
Mar 05 22:31:23 <stickster>	right, no subject is more important than
any other on wikipedia
Mar 05 22:31:23 <jsmith>	My personal opinion is that no matter what we
decide, the law of entropy will get us unless we make it hard not to
do the right thing ;-)
Mar 05 22:31:26 <quaid>	where we are one mile wide and ten miles deep
Mar 05 22:31:57 <quaid>	jsmith: ninja robots attach you if you don't
subscribe to a page you own?
Mar 05 22:32:02 <stickster>	I think jsmith has a very good point
Mar 05 22:32:10 <stickster>	I am not saying that hierarchies are by
definition a bad thing.
Mar 05 22:32:25 <jsmith>	Whether it's a wiki or a CMS, you've gotta
make it easy to do the right thing
Mar 05 22:32:25 <stickster>	I think that pages will tend to accumulate
in flat namespace.
Mar 05 22:32:40 <quaid>	have they?
Mar 05 22:32:50 <stickster>	Pretty surely
Mar 05 22:32:59 <stickster>	("Don't call me surely.")
Mar 05 22:32:59 <quaid>	mmcgrath: you about?  any idea if more pages
use flat namespace or moin-pseudo-hierarchy?
Mar 05 22:33:01 *	EvilBob has other things to do for Fedora than just
thinking about the wiki, just was looking for something else I could
do.
Mar 05 22:33:06 <quaid>	stickster: nor pretty
Mar 05 22:33:11 <quaid>	EvilBob: hey!
Mar 05 22:33:11 *	bo09 (n=bo09 at nat/redhat/x-a14e2d8bf802b3b6) has
joined #fedora-meeting
Mar 05 22:33:22 <mmcgrath>	quaid: yeah
Mar 05 22:33:34 <quaid>	EvilBob: we just need to sort out which is the
right thing to spend our time on in fixing the freaking wiki
Mar 05 22:33:52 <mmcgrath>	whats the difference between flat namespace
and moin-pseudo-hierarchy?
Mar 05 22:33:55 <quaid>	well
Mar 05 22:34:08 <quaid>	flat namespace is like:  Fedora9VirtQuickStart
Mar 05 22:34:23 <quaid>	pseudo-hierarchy is: Docs/9/Virt/QuickStart
Mar 05 22:34:38 <mmcgrath>	oh
Mar 05 22:34:38 <quaid>	so ... SELinux/FAQ is a non-flat usage
Mar 05 22:34:50 <mmcgrath>	we have a good mix of both though I think
most teams do pseudo-hierarchy.
Mar 05 22:34:55 <quaid>	I say psuedo because I don't think Moin
actually organizes in folders, right?
Mar 05 22:35:00 <stickster>	I think we're going to see mainly one folder deep
Mar 05 22:35:01 <EvilBob>	quaid: Oh I agree, but fixing content is not
an option when I (and the users) don't even know what content there is
the way things are now
Mar 05 22:35:37 <quaid>	I was contemplating a massive help in pushing
to MW right after FAS2 rolls out
Mar 05 22:35:52 <quaid>	and then resolving this more on the other
side, once we know the new scope
Mar 05 22:36:15 <quaid>	so, we might not need to fix names as much as
use search to find duplicate content, merge, etc. like Paul said
Mar 05 22:36:17 <stickster>	quaid: I think that's the right plan if
we're just a short way from it
Mar 05 22:36:18 <EvilBob>	quaid: I agree with Paul that we need to
look at what we will want to have once FAS2 and MW are a reality
Mar 05 22:36:33 <stickster>	It looks like both are close
Mar 05 22:36:33 <quaid>	there is also a secondary question on the table:
Mar 05 22:36:35 <jsmith>	Some days, I wonder if it wouldn't be worth
burning it all and starting over.  Give people a time to move the
relevant content (from Moin to MW), and burn the rest.  You know, like
the same way you cleaned out the fridge in college.
Mar 05 22:36:45 <quaid>	do we want a separate Docs/ namespace?
something that is just Fedora Docs?
Mar 05 22:36:50 <EvilBob>	my problem is that when I search I get proxy errors
Mar 05 22:36:56 <quaid>	or do we want to merge that up a layer, the
idea being -- hey it's a wiki, it's docs already
Mar 05 22:36:58 <stickster>	quaid: I think that may actually be a hindrance
Mar 05 22:37:02 <stickster>	quaid: +1
Mar 05 22:37:16 <stickster>	We just draft in the appropriate space and
let people go where they may.
Mar 05 22:37:25 <EvilBob>	so the wiki is worthless unless we start
fixing things now even if it is on a small scale and focused
Mar 05 22:37:31 <stickster>	It couldn't be any worse uptake than right
now -- meaning, we have Docs people who will work on it wherever it
sits.
Mar 05 22:37:38 <quaid>	right, so it's all project or content areas,
with content area being everything from "FixingVideoProblems" to
"KernelHacks"
Mar 05 22:37:50 <jmbuser>	Has anyone found a good example of a
well-organized wiki? - Maybe we should look around for a role model
Mar 05 22:37:52 <stickster>	quaid: +
Mar 05 22:37:55 <stickster>	+1
Mar 05 22:38:03 <quaid>	do we even want the concept of a Draft namespace within?
Mar 05 22:38:12 <quaid>	e.g. Virt/Draft/Foo that moves to Virt/Foo?
Mar 05 22:38:18 <EvilBob>	Draft no
Mar 05 22:38:29 <EvilBob>	Virt/Foo/Draft
Mar 05 22:38:31 <quaid>	or is a wiki, by definition, one big clusterdraft?
Mar 05 22:38:33 <EvilBob>	Virt/Foo/8
Mar 05 22:38:34 <stickster>	I've come to think without a CMS and
workflow, it's somewhat meaningless.
Mar 05 22:38:36 <EvilBob>	Virt/Foo/9
Mar 05 22:38:39 <EvilBob>	Virt/Foo/7
Mar 05 22:38:46 <stickster>	+1 to "everything's a draft."
Mar 05 22:39:05 <jsmith>	stickster: +1
Mar 05 22:39:07 <quaid>	"a wiki is one big clusterdraft"
Mar 05 22:39:12 <stickster>	:-D
Mar 05 22:39:12 <quaid>	that's my next t-shirt
Mar 05 22:39:24 <jmbuser>	It's a draft until it's checked into CVS and
converted to DocBook XML
Mar 05 22:39:36 <EvilBob>	Mine says "you're stupid"
Mar 05 22:39:39 <stickster>	*ding ding ding*
Mar 05 22:39:40 <EvilBob>	not you
Mar 05 22:39:43 <jmbuser>	then published on a web site
Mar 05 22:39:45 <EvilBob>	but others
Mar 05 22:39:54 <quaid>	EvilBob: riiiight ... :)
Mar 05 22:40:12 <EvilBob>	I think "draft" space has a place in the wiki
Mar 05 22:40:28 *	stickster thinks '|| This is a draft ||' accomplishes that
Mar 05 22:40:33 <quaid>	stickster: how do you envision versioning differences?
Mar 05 22:40:36 <EvilBob>	even if it is only used as a scratch pad for
the next release
Mar 05 22:40:54 <quaid>	one reason I like the version in a
title/namespace is we can search for old shit to either mark as
deprecated, update, or remove
Mar 05 22:40:56 <EvilBob>	A rolling scratch pad from release to release
Mar 05 22:41:06 *	quaid is having a very hard time not swearing this
morning, sorry :)
Mar 05 22:41:13 <EvilBob>	quaid: +1
Mar 05 22:41:40 <stickster>	quaid: I think categories can take care of
that nicely. We should be more freewheeling about them and use them
like tags
Mar 05 22:41:56 <EvilBob>	stickster: +1
Mar 05 22:41:58 <jmbuser>	stickster: +1
Mar 05 22:41:59 *	quaid goes to look at wtf MW does about that
Mar 05 22:42:04 <EvilBob>	stickster: in the long run yes
Mar 05 22:42:21 *	JSchmitt has quit ("Konversation terminated!")
Mar 05 22:42:25 <EvilBob>	stickster: but that does not fix today, or tomorrow
Mar 05 22:42:40 <EvilBob>	we still have moin moin for a little while
Mar 05 22:42:46 <stickster>	http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:Categories
Mar 05 22:43:14 <stickster>	EvilBob: Tomorrow may be closer than you think.
Mar 05 22:43:22 <EvilBob>	I think we need to work on some of these
gardening ideas before the migration so we have a better product after
Mar 05 22:43:44 <stickster>	I think if we start framing it like a
product, we're losing.
Mar 05 22:44:01 <quaid>	EvilBob: I'm worried about us wasting time in
moving content if it just won't matter
Mar 05 22:44:30 <quaid>	e.g. we could be taking that time to put stuff
in categories later, thereby getting the effect we want but in the
freaking database of MW instead of trapped in CategoryFooBarBaz tags
in Moin
Mar 05 22:44:42 <stickster>	quaid: disco
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Mar 05 22:45:06 <stickster>	My personal feeling is that the right
place to spend time is polishing the DUG and AG, getting them out of
the way so work can progress on other areas like the GIG.
Mar 05 22:45:06 <quaid>	mmcgrath: does the Moin to MW migration
scriptie cover the CategoryFoo stuff for tagging the resultant pages?
Mar 05 22:45:24 <mmcgrath>	Not sure, I'd bet it doesn't.
Mar 05 22:45:35 <mmcgrath>	I've got a script I'm working on and
daMaestro is looking into one as well.
Mar 05 22:45:37 <quaid>	are you building on an existing script?
Mar 05 22:45:41 <quaid>	ah, ok
Mar 05 22:45:51 <mmcgrath>	yeah, I can get a copy to you.
Mar 05 22:46:05 <BobJensen>	Evil Bob got split
Mar 05 22:46:06 <mmcgrath>	I'm not sure what license it is released
under, I've contacted the author.
Mar 05 22:46:23 <quaid>	we could use the old wiki in r-o mode for a
while to do some of that; pull up pages by Category then tag the MW
version;b ut that is a pita it seems we could automate?
Mar 05 22:46:41 <mmcgrath>	Yeah I was going to leave up for a couple
of months at least in some sort of RO fashion.
Mar 05 22:46:51 <BobJensen>	there is some bad lag
Mar 05 22:46:56 <quaid>	how much time do we want to spend on the
automation of migration?
Mar 05 22:47:05 <quaid>	ok, let me summarize so far if I can:
Mar 05 22:47:10 <stickster>	quaid: I think automating that seems pretty easy.
Mar 05 22:47:35 <mmcgrath>	quaid: it depends on what we want out of
mediawiki.  There's some bits I have in the "need" column right now
(like proper table migration)
Mar 05 22:47:36 <quaid>	* namespaces probably don't matter as much in
MW; stickster argues that full text index is our friend there,  as
well as other MW features to find and merge content
Mar 05 22:47:55 <EvilBob>	stickster: I hope that tomorrow comes very very fast
Mar 05 22:48:07 <stickster>	quaid: And keep in mind that "namespaces"
have a particular meaning in MW, i.e. they are a feature
Mar 05 22:48:15 <quaid>	* we need this sorted out before F9 drops or
we'll have the same mess as usual
Mar 05 22:48:36 <stickster>	i.e. Special:, Help:, Main:, Template:, et al.
Mar 05 22:48:46 <quaid>	* the goal is to enable maintainers as well as
contributors to be effective, easily and early
Mar 05 22:48:59 <quaid>	* eradicated Docs and Draft namespaces makes
sense; the whole wiki == docs
Mar 05 22:49:08 <quaid>	stickster: oh, yeah ...
Mar 05 22:49:31 <stickster>	The biggest barrier to more wiki-based
content right now is (1) the inefficiency of Moin, and (2) the CLA
mes.
Mar 05 22:49:32 <quaid>	* project_area and content_area should be good enough
Mar 05 22:49:33 <stickster>	*mess.
Mar 05 22:49:46 <jsmith>	Does it still make sense to have a Docs
namespace for things like Wiki to Docbook conversion, etc?
Mar 05 22:49:56 <stickster>	I am trying to fix 2, and Mike et al. are
trying to fix 1.
Mar 05 22:50:05 <quaid>	* we need to assess (quickly!) what we can do
to make the MW migration fastest and bestest, then do it and move on
Mar 05 22:50:14 <EvilBob>	jsmith: DocumentationProject
Mar 05 22:50:17 <stickster>	jsmith: Maybe we could categorize those
too, i.e. Category:SCMControlled
Mar 05 22:50:18 <quaid>	jsmith: that's docsProject
Mar 05 22:50:22 <quaid>	EvilBob: :)
Mar 05 22:50:23 <EvilBob>	jsmith: ok
Mar 05 22:50:27 <EvilBob>	oops
Mar 05 22:50:44 <EvilBob>	Docs/ is end user content
Mar 05 22:50:46 <jsmith>	Gotcha...
Mar 05 22:50:49 <stickster>	jsmith: Oh wait, I think I answered the
wrong question, nvm
Mar 05 22:51:00 *	jsmith finally makes the connection
Mar 05 22:51:06 <stickster>	EvilBob: If we even keep Docs/
Mar 05 22:51:13 <quaid>	right, perfect example of the confusion of having Docs/
Mar 05 22:51:16 <stickster>	Which I think is unnecessary
Mar 05 22:51:22 <stickster>	It's here, it's docs.
Mar 05 22:51:24 <quaid>	stickster: I summarized above that we drop it
Mar 05 22:51:27 <stickster>	Yup
Mar 05 22:51:29 <EvilBob>	stickster: I am with you there
Mar 05 22:51:31 <quaid>	* </summary>?
Mar 05 22:51:45 <stickster>	Sure
Mar 05 22:51:51 <quaid>	oh, right, final point:
Mar 05 22:51:54 <EvilBob>	I am not disagreeing that we need to clean things up
Mar 05 22:52:09 <EvilBob>	oh wait that was my whole point...
Mar 05 22:52:14 <quaid>	* focus on DUG/AG then GIG while mmcgrath does
MW planning; help with that; then be prepared to gang on the migration
to make it happen in time
Mar 05 22:52:20 <quaid>	time == by 15 April?
Mar 05 22:52:39 <jsmith>	Sounds fair
Mar 05 22:52:39 <stickster>	Set action items for the DUG/AG.
Mar 05 22:52:42 <EvilBob>	stickster: want to know my fear?
Mar 05 22:52:45 <quaid>	EvilBob: I think the point is, any effort at
clean-up at this point is like sweeping the building before we implode
it
Mar 05 22:53:04 <stickster>	The only way the DUG/AG cleanup is going
to happen is by people having clear assignments.
Mar 05 22:53:04 <quaid>	maybe not "any" but "much"
Mar 05 22:53:11 <EvilBob>	stickster: that the migration might take all
pages and make them /laststring
Mar 05 22:53:28 <quaid>	 /laststring?
Mar 05 22:53:28 <stickster>	EvilBob: Mike can take care of that.
Mar 05 22:53:32 <stickster>	quaid: As in Releases/9/FooBar ==> newwiki/FooBar
Mar 05 22:53:33 <EvilBob>	stickster: then we have 85 GettingStarted
Mar 05 22:53:45 *	quaid has changed the topic to: FDSCo -- DUG/AG
assignments and planning
Mar 05 22:53:50 <stickster>	EvilBob: mmcgrath et al. will ensure that
doesn't happen.
Mar 05 22:53:54 <quaid>	I think we need to get this one tackled before
the meeting is over
Mar 05 22:54:05 <stickster>	That's a pretty simple requirement for them to test.
Mar 05 22:54:13 <stickster>	quaid: +10.
Mar 05 22:54:16
<quaid>	http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/DesktopUserGuide
Mar 05 22:54:21 <quaid>	that is ready for us to volunteer
Mar 05 22:54:37 <quaid>	folks here, we all need to grab at least one
of those chapters to help wordsmith/stylsmith
Mar 05 22:54:41 <stickster>	How many people here are going to help get
these things done, Finally?
Mar 05 22:54:46 <EvilBob>	stickster: even Releases/9/FooBar ==>
newwiki/Releases9FooBar is fine by me
Mar 05 22:54:46 <jsmith>	quaid: I volunteered last week to help with
the Wiki to DocBook conversion, as long as everybody is happy with
what I did with the SMG
Mar 05 22:54:53 <stickster>	EvilBob: moving on
Mar 05 22:54:58 <jmbuser>	I need to do a final sweep
Mar 05 22:55:16 <jsmith>	quaid: But since I haven't received any
feedback on the SMG, I'm hesitant to tackle another project without
making sure I did the last one right
Mar 05 22:55:18 <stickster>	jsmith: You asked me, among others, to
look at your work, and I haven't, apologies
Mar 05 22:55:26 *	EvilBob has quit (Remote closed the connection)
Mar 05 22:55:36 <stickster>	Aiiieee! netsplit killed EvilBob!
Mar 05 22:55:39 <jmbuser>	of the DUG for typos and continuity of style
Mar 05 22:55:48 <BobJensen>	Sorry about that, lag got evilbob
Mar 05 22:56:01 <BobJensen>	I was way behind in the conversation
Mar 05 22:56:14 <jmbuser>	also the SMG, as I promised
Mar 05 22:56:21 <quaid>	is it in CVS?
Mar 05 22:56:27 <quaid>	that was my criteria, iirc
Mar 05 22:56:40 <quaid>	so we could commit edits, etc. to cross-learn, etc.
Mar 05 22:56:48 <quaid>	if it's not, let's do that right now after the meeting
Mar 05 22:56:48 <jsmith>	The SMG is in CVS, yes
Mar 05 22:56:52 <quaid>	sweet
Mar 05 22:57:05 <jsmith>	It's still in the yum-software-management
directory, but it's in CVS
Mar 05 22:57:13 <jsmith>	IT's been in CVS for about three weeks or so now
Mar 05 22:57:48 *	quaid shamefaced
Mar 05 22:57:59 <quaid>	ok, #fedora-docs to sort that out
Mar 05 22:58:01 <quaid>	oic
Mar 05 22:58:40 *	nim-nim has quit ("Leaving.")
Mar 05 22:58:47 <BobJensen>	I will be away for the rest of the
meeting, I can't get Evilbob connected and I can't leave these kids
alone
Mar 05 22:59:07 <quaid>	BobJensen: you good :)
Mar 05 22:59:15 <jsmith>	BobJensen: Fair enough... we'll cover for you
(and I'll take over making snarky remarks on your behalf)
Mar 05 22:59:21 <quaid>	I sent a note to the list to gang up on the DUG
Mar 05 22:59:44 *	nim-nim (n=nim-nim at m71.net81-64-156.noos.fr) has
joined #fedora-meeting
Mar 05 22:59:47 *	quaid has changed the topic to: relnotes one sheet
Mar 05 22:59:56 <quaid>	... which looks good so far; getting more attention
Mar 05 23:00:04 <quaid>	we can later parse some of that back into the Beats
Mar 05 23:00:16 <quaid>	speaking of beats ...
Mar 05 23:00:36
<quaid>	http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Schedule#head-eaf64a312f930169fedfde4ebcb34a27527685b9
Mar 05 23:00:50 <quaid>	Paul and I met this weekend, and that schedule
is basically accurate for here on out
Mar 05 23:01:15 <quaid>	so we have an upcoming 16 March wiki freeze
Mar 05 23:01:41 <quaid>	anything more on either of those topics?
Mar 05 23:01:51 <quaid>	otherwise we can close and vacate the channel
back to #fedora-docs ...
Mar 05 23:02:43 <quaid>	closing in 10
Mar 05 23:02:48 <quaid>	5
Mar 05 23:02:49 <quaid>	4
Mar 05 23:02:50 <quaid>	3
Mar 05 23:02:51 <quaid>	2
Mar 05 23:02:51 <quaid>	1
Mar 05 23:02:54 <quaid>	</meeting>