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FDSCo Meeting 2008-05-28 IRC log



In wiki format: 

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings/Minutes/IRCLog20080528

12:07 < quaid> <meeting>
12:07 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo mtg -- welcomes
12:07 < quaid> ... and welcome
12:08 -!- jmtaylor [n=jason fedora/jmtaylor] has joined #fedora-meeting
12:08 -!- jmbuser [n=jmbuser 195 229 25 134] has joined #fedora-meeting
12:09 < quaid> roll call for easy record keeping, if you are here ...
12:09 < quaid> <- Karsten is here
12:09 < jmbuser> JohnBabich
12:09 < Sparks> Eric Christensen
12:09 -!- Ludvick [n=ludvick_ adsl-065-012-235-102 sip mia bellsouth net] has joined #fedora-meeting
12:10  * quaid is getting agenda up on his screen
12:10 -!- mcepl [n=matej adsl3050 in ipex cz] has left #fedora-meeting ["Bye bye!"]
12:10 < jmbuser> JohnBabich the psychic
12:10 < quaid> heh
12:10  * ianweller lurks
12:10 < quaid> ok, I saw couf join
12:10 < quaid> and jsmith is half-here
12:10 < quaid> stickster_afk is at a booth or dinner or something
12:11  * jsmith wishes he were eating dinner
12:11 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo rollin' in the hood -- Elections!
12:11 < quaid> cool, we have everyone here to discuss elections, governance, and the like
12:11 < quaid> paul posted a bit on list
12:11 < quaid> http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2008-May/msg00093.html
12:12  * quaid waits a moment for others to read the thread
12:13 < quaid> ok
12:13 < Sparks> There was also some additional conversation that was had but it didn't go much further
12:13 < quaid> some differeint ideas there, ditt and sparks
12:14 < quaid> what I propose is this:
12:14 < quaid> i. we discuss until :35 at the latest
12:14 < quaid> ii. see if we have a consensus
12:14 < quaid> iii. if not, push the discussion contents back to the list and continue
12:15 < Sparks> +1
12:15 < quaid> I started the whole thing off because we are looking at how we govern in Fedora, and I think it makes sense to review on a subproj basis if we are following a formula that works for us or not
12:15 < jmbuser> +1
12:16 < jmbuser> continue
12:17  * quaid could talk for 20 minutes if he isn't careful :)
12:17 < quaid> simple idea:
12:17 < quaid> how do we turn from "the leader" into "a leader" and "A group of leaders"?
12:17 < quaid> eol
12:18 < jmbuser> We already seem to have a pretty motivated group of people
12:18 < jsmith> quaid: People don't learn to lead by watching a leader.  They learn to lead by having adversity thrown at them
12:19 -!- fab [n=bellet bellet info] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
12:19 < jsmith> The person you call "the leader" is simply the one that's experienced the most adversity, and done the best at getting through it
12:19 -!- spoleeba [n=one fedora/Jef] has joined #fedora-meeting
12:19 < quaid> what is interesting to me is this ... we have a process we've defined, and we have a way we've grown organically ... and they don't necessarily match
12:19 < jmbuser> This is not that unusual
12:20 < quaid> do we fix the process then?  dissolve it?
12:20 -!- wolfy [n=lonewolf fedora/wolfy] has left #fedora-meeting ["The chief excitement in a woman's life is spotting women who are fatter than she is."]
12:20 < Sparks> In my opinion, I think the Steering Committee is too bulky for where I see the DocsProject is currently at
12:21 < jmbuser> Planned processes and the way things actually work out are usually two different things
12:21 < quaid> spoleeba: you might want to throw in here -- discussing governance of Docs, how to work with SIGs, etc.
12:21 < jmbuser> The solution is to have the process reflect reality
12:21 < quaid> spoleeba: or you might rightly say, "not my place, proceed" :)
12:21 < Sparks> If we defined a chair and a vice-chair I think they could "steer" the process
12:21 < quaid> reality is -- interestd people show up at a meeting time, on list, etc.
12:22 < quaid> Sparks: I see that, as a group, Fedora appreciates where there is a named leader or two or three so people know who to "go to"
12:22 < Sparks> Exactly
12:22 < Sparks> But I don't think we have the following necessary for a committee to lead the project
12:23  * jsmith agrees
12:23 < quaid> oh good
12:23 < quaid> that's how I've been feeling :)
12:23 < jsmith> In fact, I'd gladly give up my seat on the said commitee
12:23 < quaid> the committee weight is a bit heavy to maneuver with
12:23 < jsmith> (as I've been practically worthless lately)
12:23 < quaid> or
12:24 < quaid> make it "opt in"
12:24 < quaid> you want in, you are in
12:24 < quaid> you want out, just say you are disappearing for a while
12:24 < quaid> and let people "breathe" that way as per their life
12:24 < Sparks> That works
12:24 < quaid> I've been fortunate to have more Fedora time now, but I've always had weeks or months where I disappear into RHT work
12:25 < Sparks> We, as a project, should be able to say "we want this"...  and we already do, really
12:25 < quaid> yep
12:25 < quaid> as for picking chair/v-chair stuff ... ideas that occur to me are:
12:25 < quaid> * have that as a general subproj election
12:25 < quaid> * have the opt-in FDSCo do it for everyone else
12:25 < quaid> sorry, that was 1 and 2
12:26 < jmbuser> "Is Fedora Docs going to remain a project or become a SIG?" is the question to ask, in my opinion
12:26 < quaid> 3. don't elect, just make sure things move around often enough
12:26 < quaid> 4. don't elect but have a clear process to kick out people who become tyrants
12:26  * jmbuser is always out of phase lately - sorry
12:26 < quaid> jmbuser: now, there is a way to ask that question, but I think it is already answered
12:27 < jsmith> Let me throw out one other question... is this a case of "much ado about nothing"?
12:27 < quaid> I support the general scheme that spoleeba (Jef) has proposed.
12:27 < quaid> in that one, Docs is clearly a subproject
12:27 -!- mccann [n=jmccann nat/redhat-us/x-4789468b54e83c36] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
12:27 < quaid> and each SIG has a docs role to fill, with that person connecting back up to Docs the subproj
12:27 < jsmith> I mean, has the FDSCo really been that bad?
12:27 < quaid> jsmith: not bad, just ...
12:28 < quaid> jsmith: we said we'd have elections and stuff
12:28 < jsmith> quaid: And we have... at least I think I got elected somehow
12:28 < quaid> jsmith: so we need to be clear what we are doing, for those in the proj but not involved in leading, etc.
12:28 -!- mccann [n=jmccann nat/redhat-us/x-fdef7a5fbd075095] has joined #fedora-meeting
12:28 < quaid> jsmith: I mean, it's time again for elections :)
12:28 < Sparks> +1 to quaid's list...
12:28 < quaid> turnout has been not very big nor grown across elections; in fact, I think it might have declined
12:28 < Sparks> I think we should "elect" or "appoint" a leader of some sort
12:29 < quaid> how about this as a scheme:
12:29 < jsmith> FSSCo senate?
12:29 < quaid> * FDSCo is opt-in, consisting of all who want to be involved in steering
12:29 < quaid> * FDSCo has the charge to make sure leadership remains relevant
12:29 < quaid> * FDSCo decides to elect or appoint
12:30 < quaid> * If project members have problems with any of that, the answer is obviously to opt-in to the process and help from within the steering
12:30 < jsmith> +1
12:30 < jsmith> WORKSFORME
12:30 < Sparks> +1
12:30  * quaid is thinking it looks OK and quite a bit like what we do already :)
12:31 < Sparks> It is... only less strict... more flexible
12:31 < jsmith> quaid: And yes, if you become an evil tyrant we'll kick you out ;-)
12:31 < jmbuser> In that anyone who wants to be on the steering committee generally gets elected, it doesn't seem to be much different
12:31  * quaid is happy we found a way to make Sparks' vote official, too :)
12:31 < jsmith> be right back
12:32 < jmbuser> than what you propose
12:32 < quaid> jmbuser: right, except we artificially constrained the SCo before, so people who cannot be active are "taking slots" from people who can be active right now; so yeah, better
12:32 -!- RodrigoPadula [i=c8c6c292 gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-15a8c9d839c8dfb7] has joined #fedora-meeting
12:33 < RodrigoPadula> hello guys!
12:33 < jmbuser> In other words, people get elected, then their life situation changes, then someone else becomes active between elections?
12:33 < spoleeba> let me ask this.. do you have a handle on the number of active people are in the fas groups you think should have a say in the direction of docs?
12:33 < quaid> I don't think so
12:33 < quaid> that said,
12:33 < quaid> most such people tend to come in there anyway in some fashion
12:34 < quaid> but we are not well represented from certain groups
12:34 < spoleeba> is that number big enough to support an election? elections on make sense if you need representative governance..versus referendum
12:35 < spoleeba> if sigs grow doc roles...then maybe you'll need elections of some sort
12:37 < quaid> +1
12:37 -!- J5_ [n=quintice 66 187 234 199] has joined #fedora-meeting
12:37 < quaid> when it gets to where we have some actual contention to elect against :)
12:38 < quaid> right now it's like a girls club electing "officers"
12:38 < quaid> which was important
12:38 < quaid> back when we needed to make it clear RHT wasn't puppetizing things
12:38 < jmbuser> What about high-level decisions like not documenting closed-binary workarounds?
12:38 < quaid> now that we all know that RHT barely notices Docs (j/k ...
12:39 < quaid> jmbuser: where it's not clear from the overall project, SCo should be able to handle that
12:39 < jmbuser> Encouraging FOSS solutions instead?
12:39 < quaid> well, if in the future that becomes OK to do in Fedora, we'll follow suit.
12:40 < quaid> I mean, Fedora doesn't support closed binary workaround, so we don't have to, and really shouldn't
12:40 < quaid> if we do our job right and are visible enough, the rest of Fedora will make sure we don't drift, too :)
12:41 < quaid> ok, we went over the mark
12:41 < quaid> but I think we got some consensus, yes?
12:41 < jmbuser> please sum up
12:42 < quaid> ok, let's see ...
12:42  * jsmith stumbles back
12:42 < Sparks> +1
12:42 < quaid> 12:29 < quaid> * FDSCo is opt-in, consisting of all who want to be involved in steering
12:42 < quaid> 12:29 < quaid> * FDSCo has the charge to make sure leadership remains relevant
12:42 < quaid> 12:29 < quaid> * FDSCo decides to elect or appoint
12:42 < quaid> 12:30 < quaid> * If project members have problems with any of that, the answer is  obviously to opt-in to the process and help from within the steering
12:42 < quaid> add to that:
12:42 < quaid> FDSCo elects or appoints leadership as they see fit.
12:42 < quaid> and what I propose:
12:43 < quaid> all FDSCo members say "I am a Fedora Docs Leader"
12:43 < quaid> and we emphasize points of contact that are subject matter focused rather than one big daddy
12:43 < quaid> (that is a grow-to strategy that includes better DocsProject pages to help others find their SME)
12:44 < quaid> eosummary
12:44 < quaid> SME == subject matter expert
12:44 < quaid> did I miss anything?
12:44 -!- kms [n=kms mailgate passback co uk] has joined #fedora-meeting
12:44  * jmbuser is starting to "get it"
12:45 < jsmith> quaid: You forget that we're going to elect you puppet dictator for life
12:45 < jmbuser> All hail, quaid!
12:45 < jsmith> quaid: But other than that minor issue, you've hit the issue squarely on the head
12:45 < quaid> hey, I have an ego, too
12:45 < Sparks> quaid quaid quaid quaid
12:45 < jsmith> quaid++
12:45 < jmbuser> MIB II reference :-)
12:45 < quaid> anyone who says they aren't proud of their roles in Fedora is probably lying :)
12:45 -!- JSchmitt [n=s4504kr p4FDD1A55 dip0 t-ipconnect de] has joined #fedora-meeting
12:46 < jsmith> quaid: I'm not proud of my role on FDSCo... does that count?
12:47 < Sparks> So that went twice as long as was "allowed"... :)
12:48 < quaid> word
12:48 < quaid> anything more?
12:48 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo mtg rolls onward -- release notes 9.0.2-1
12:48 < quaid> anyone here know anything?
12:49  * jsmith doesn't know *anything*
12:49 < quaid> mdious isn't here, it's middle of night in .au
12:49 < quaid> stickster_afk is dining still
12:49  * quaid is joking, he doesn't know
12:49 < quaid> ok, moving on
12:49 < jsmith> ~hail gluttony!
12:49 -!- tiagoaoa [i=c8c6c292 gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d005906909200f78] has joined #fedora-meeting
12:49 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo is as FDSCo does -- Wiki gardening ...
12:49 < quaid> let's make this the final topic for now
12:49 < quaid> oh, sorry
12:49 < quaid> Sparks had some stuff too
12:50 < Sparks> Not really... It can wait.
12:50 < quaid> Sparks: are those sub topics to wiki gardening?
12:50 < Sparks> Yes
12:50 < couf> pong, sorry
12:50 < quaid> if you say yes, then go ahead, that's as good a place to start as any
12:50 < Sparks> Okay...  So wiki gardening...
12:50 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo is as FDSCo does -- Wiki gardening ... UG, SecG, Other, cleaning up projects list ...
12:50 < Sparks> I've been making a run through the DocsProject and Documentation pages...
12:51 < quaid> (it's been going pretty well, IMO, thanks to all who have been helping)
12:51 -!- jmbuser [n=jmbuser 195 229 25 134] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
12:51 < Sparks> and I think I've hit most of the 'big' pages...
12:51 < quaid> +1 sweet
12:51 < Sparks> but if you want to see how many pages are actually attributed to the DocsProject...
12:51 < Sparks> just go to https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:DocsProject.
12:52 < Sparks> This brings up my first request...
12:52 < tiagoaoa> let me see if I can talk here
12:52 < Sparks> categories.
12:52 < tiagoaoa> yep.. not moderated, see?
12:52 < Sparks> tiagoaoa Go ahead
12:52 < tiagoaoa> nevermind
12:52 < quaid> Sparks: we can have categories in cats, right?
12:53 < Sparks> quaid: We can have anything we want.
12:53 < Sparks> Looks like Drkludge wrote something for our category...
12:53 < quaid> tiagoaoa: if you are having trouble talking in a #fedora-* channel, the channel topic there should point you at directions for registering your nick.
12:53 < quaid> Sparks: what are you thinking about for cats?
12:54 < Sparks> so that if anyone clicks on the category it will give them some information on what it is.
12:54 -!- ldimaggi_ [n=ldimaggi 66 187 234 199] has quit ["Leaving"]
12:54 < Sparks> There seems to be two...  DocsProject and Documentation
12:54 < quaid> they are different
12:54 < quaid> one is content useful for people, the other is the project that maintains that content
12:54 < Sparks> If we can flag all the Documentation as such then it would make it easier to maintain and have people find it
12:54 < quaid> true that
12:54 < Sparks> quaid: exactly
12:55 < quaid> do we want to move the actual docs out from the DocsProject cat?
12:55 < Sparks> I'd like to propose we also do one for the drafts.
12:55 < quaid> what about a namespace?
12:55 < Sparks> quaid: I don't know.  That was one of my questions
12:55 < quaid> Docs: or something
12:55 < quaid> ianweller: can we have a page in multiple, non-nested categories?
12:55 -!- Ludvick [n=ludvick_ adsl-065-012-235-102 sip mia bellsouth net] has quit ["Leaving"]
12:56 < quaid> ianweller: or should we have a Documentation cat, and a DocumetationDraft sub-cat?
12:56 < Sparks> quaid: yes...  Check the security guide.
12:56 < ianweller> it depends on how you want to do it. do you want your drafts in [[Category:Documentation]]?
12:56 < quaid> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Documentation
12:56 < quaid> ok, I see
12:56 < jsmith> Gotta run again...
12:56 -!- jsmith is now known as jsmith-away
12:56 < ianweller> if not, make them separate; if so, add [[Category:Documentation]] to the page for Category:DocumentationDraft
12:56 < quaid> ianweller: yes
12:57 < Sparks> ianweller: cool... hadn't thought of that.
12:57 < quaid> that seems clear enough
12:57 < quaid> Sparks: +1 to the general idea, fwiw
12:57 -!- J5 [n=quintice nat/redhat-us/x-0f613b84aea53d37] has quit [Connection timed out]
12:57 < Sparks> Yeah, just trying to get a standard out there
12:57 < quaid> I want to see us leading others in how to use MediaWiki to our advantage
12:57 < Sparks> the cats make it VERY easy to maintain things
12:57 < quaid> ianweller: what is the advantage of a Namespace: over or alongside a Category: ?
12:58 < quaid> Sparks: can you write up a policy?  DocsProject/Categories or something
12:58 < Sparks> Sure
12:58 < quaid> policy/procedure/guideline whatever
12:58 < Sparks> guide
12:58 < Sparks> that's not a problem
12:58 -!- JSchmitt [n=s4504kr fedora/JSchmitt] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"]
12:58 < Sparks> Anyone have anything else?  If not I'll go on to the orphan pages and that will be it for me
12:59 < quaid> I want to talk about namespaces but need to grok it better
12:59 < quaid> so we can move on to orphaned, sure
12:59 < Sparks> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Special:Lonelypages
12:59  * quaid reading http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Namespace
12:59 -!- rdieter_away is now known as rdieter
12:59 < Sparks> So this page shows all the pages in the wiki that aren't linked to any other page in the wiki
12:59 < quaid> oooooh, nice Special: page
12:59 < ianweller> quaid: i'm trying to search for what would be a good reason to completely switch over to namespaces
12:59 < Sparks> Lots of fun stuff in here.
13:00 < quaid> wow, there are tons there
13:00 < quaid> for the MoinEditorBackup, ianweller or someone was looking at a way to mass delete them
13:00 < Sparks> Yeah, and if they aren't linked some how then they are only going to be found by a search which to me is inefficient
13:01 < quaid> that one is on the Migration Masters to-do list
13:01 < Sparks> yeah
13:01 < quaid> Sparks: well ...
13:01 < quaid> Sparks: one thing about MW is search is useful
13:01 < quaid> Sparks: also, they might be linked from the outside, which is legit
13:01 < quaid> I'd want to see a cross between this list and a Google frequency of some kind
13:01 < Sparks> I'm not saying we should go in and try to shoehorn all these pages in, but there are a lot of DocsProject files out there that need some love
13:01 < quaid> to use it as a basis for declaring orphans
13:01 < quaid> that is true
13:01 < Sparks> I agree
13:01 < quaid> ok, we are out of time
13:02 < Sparks> Yep, the orphan thing was just food for thought.
13:02 < Sparks> eof
13:02 < quaid> let's move this over to #fedora-docs to continue, a policy will take more discussion.
13:02 < quaid> ok, then, cool
13:02 < quaid> thanks everyone
13:02 < quaid> </meeting>

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