FDSCo Meeting 2009-04-01 IRC log

[Eric Christensen]

Apr 01 20:00:15 <Sparks>	<meeting id="Docs Project">
Apr 01 20:00:15 *	Sparks has changed the topic to: Welcome to the 
Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: 
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings
Apr 01 20:00:19 <Sparks>	Roll call!
Apr 01 20:00:20 <quaid>	let the boy change the topic at least :)
Apr 01 20:00:26 *	radsy is here
Apr 01 20:00:26 *	quaid esta aqui
Apr 01 20:00:34 *	jjmcd here
Apr 01 20:00:42 *	Sparks is here
Apr 01 20:00:51 *	glezos είναι εδώ
Apr 01 20:01:15 <glezos>	if that seemed all greek to you.. I'm 
here.
Apr 01 20:01:31 <quaid>	wordplay!
Apr 01 20:01:47 <jjmcd>	glezos: sometime in a bar remind me to tell you 
my story about greek
Apr 01 20:01:50 *	Sparks er her
Apr 01 20:02:20 <jjmcd>	--
Apr 01 20:02:23 <Sparks>	glezos: Everything looks greek to me at 
this hour
Apr 01 20:02:27 *	Renault has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 
3.1b3/20090327190841]")
Apr 01 20:02:34 *	joat says "me too!"
Apr 01 20:02:48 *	ryanlerch 
(n=rlerch at nat/redhat/x-0dd0cf536998819b) has joined #fedora-meeting
Apr 01 20:02:58 <Sparks>	Okay...  I see one of my stars on board 
so let's go harass him.
Apr 01 20:03:04 <Sparks>	Oh, I spoke too soon!  Both of them!
Apr 01 20:03:06 *	Sparks has changed the topic to: Docs Project - 
Status on Release Notes <-- ryanlerch & jjmcd
Apr 01 20:03:10 jcm jcollie jds2001 Jeff_S jeremy jjmcd jlaska jnettlet 
joat juhp jwb 
Apr 01 20:03:19 <Sparks>	jjmcd: Okay, let me have it!
Apr 01 20:03:20 <jjmcd>	OK, I basically got 4 kinds of beats
Apr 01 20:03:23 *	rudi (n=rlandman at nat/redhat/x-6dae8d4e0825a1f2) 
has joined #fedora-meeting
Apr 01 20:03:28 <jjmcd>	ok'
Apr 01 20:04:07 *	RodrigoPadula has quit ("Saindo")
Apr 01 20:04:30 <jjmcd>	Oh
Apr 01 20:04:38 <jjmcd>	When you said.... never mind
Apr 01 20:04:51 <jjmcd>	1) No content in wiki, not sure whether any 
changes, might drop:
Apr 01 20:04:51 <jjmcd>	Arch specific, printing, daemons, server config 
tools
Apr 01 20:04:52 <Sparks>	jjmcd: You here tonight?  I might not be
Apr 01 20:05:01 <jjmcd>	2) Limited content in wiki, might go with 
limited content:
Apr 01 20:05:01 <jjmcd>	Entertainment, Live, Security
Apr 01 20:05:08 <jjmcd>	3) NEED CONTENT:
Apr 01 20:05:08 <jjmcd>	Networking, boot, web, mail, database, file 
servers
Apr 01 20:05:15 <jjmcd>	4) Significant chunks of wiki to convert:
Apr 01 20:05:16 <jjmcd>	Virtualization, Xorg, Cluster, Kernel
Apr 01 20:05:16 <jjmcd>	(Virtualization is an update hence tedious, Xorg 
could use more content)
Apr 01 20:05:26 <jjmcd>	Just talked to Ryan, he can deal with xorg
Apr 01 20:05:44 <jjmcd>	The more help we can get the less we will have 
to drop, but basically
Apr 01 20:05:56 <jjmcd>	we need to be done midday tommorow eastern so we 
can make the pot
Apr 01 20:06:15 <Sparks>	jjmcd: Have you worked the kinks out of 
the pot?
Apr 01 20:06:25 <jjmcd>	We know how to make the pot
Apr 01 20:06:31 <Sparks>	cool
Apr 01 20:06:33 <jjmcd>	We think we can then use the result
Apr 01 20:06:41 <jjmcd>	That second part hasn't been proven, but
Apr 01 20:06:51 <jjmcd>	stickster and glezos seem to thinnk it isn't a 
problem
Apr 01 20:06:59 <Sparks>	And you are going with that?
Apr 01 20:07:03 <Sparks>	:)
Apr 01 20:07:03 <jjmcd>	yes
Apr 01 20:07:06 <Sparks>	So what do you need from me/Docs?
Apr 01 20:07:06 <quaid>	right, it's no worse than what we've done in the 
past
Apr 01 20:07:26 <rudi>	There are a few strings in the po files for the 
F10 notes that can be reused: the Welcome section and maybe some section 
titles
Apr 01 20:07:26 <jjmcd>	We could use some hands to research servers, 
networking
Apr 01 20:07:36 <jjmcd>	and do some of the remaining conversions
Apr 01 20:07:45 <jjmcd>	without the py tools it is basically cut and 
paste
Apr 01 20:08:01 <quaid>	jjmcd: you mean the xml conversion tools?
Apr 01 20:08:06 <jjmcd>	yeah
Apr 01 20:08:18 <Sparks>	Okay, I think there have been some 
advances to the NetworkManager...  not sure about the rest
Apr 01 20:08:19 <jjmcd>	the ones that need some library or another and 
don't work anymore
Apr 01 20:08:27 *	stickster_afk is now known as stickster
Apr 01 20:08:28 <jjmcd>	I'm not so sure cut/paste isn't easier anyway
Apr 01 20:08:35 <quaid>	jjmcd: aren't there packages we can use now, 
although not yet in the repo?
Apr 01 20:08:48 <jjmcd>	Seems like there was something broken
Apr 01 20:08:53 *	quaid is sorry, shall we hold tool discussions 
for a bit?
Apr 01 20:09:04 <Sparks>	quaid: Yeah, that's coming up
Apr 01 20:09:10 <jjmcd>	Yeah, there's only a few larger pieces anyway
Apr 01 20:09:18 <Sparks>	quaid: Of course we can merge the 
topics...
Apr 01 20:09:23 <jjmcd>	cut/paste probably would take a total of a 
couple of hours
Apr 01 20:09:27 *	quaid should wait :)
Apr 01 20:09:34 <jjmcd>	but if someone does that I can research the 
missing pieces
Apr 01 20:09:58 <Sparks>	Okay...  who can step up for some last 
minute research and converting?
Apr 01 20:10:16 <Sparks>	The first ten people get a piece of 
cherry pie (I baked yesterday).
Apr 01 20:10:30 <stickster>	quaid: Are you guys talking about the 
problems with mw-render?
Apr 01 20:10:42 <Sparks>	jjmcd: I can try to get some additional 
information on NetworkManager.
Apr 01 20:10:45 <stickster>	quaid: Are you guys talking about the 
problems with mw-render?
Apr 01 20:10:55 <stickster>	jjmcd: ^^
Apr 01 20:11:00 <jjmcd>	That would be a help
Apr 01 20:11:01 <quaid>	stickster: yes
Apr 01 20:11:01 <jjmcd>	yes
Apr 01 20:11:10 <stickster>	I think you can download the odfpy07 
review SRPM package that's in Bugzilla and rebuild it locally
Apr 01 20:11:15 <jjmcd>	but over the past few weeks we've gotten most 
dome by hand
Apr 01 20:11:20 <quaid>	that's what I'm talking 'bout!
Apr 01 20:11:27 <jjmcd>	so rather than spend time trying to make the 
tool work
Apr 01 20:11:44 <joat>	when's it needed by?
Apr 01 20:11:50 <jjmcd>	Tomorrow
Apr 01 20:11:53 <Sparks>	at noon
Apr 01 20:11:55 <jjmcd>	and most of the conversion is done
Apr 01 20:11:58 <stickster>	jjmcd: Yeah, you don't want to spin 
useful cycles making a tool work when you could just do some elbow 
grease
Apr 01 20:11:59 <jjmcd>	thanks to Ryan
Apr 01 20:12:00 <Sparks>	jjmcd: is that noon EDT?
Apr 01 20:12:08 <joat>	ouch...
Apr 01 20:12:22 <jjmcd>	I figure noon EDT or so will give us plenty of 
time for pits, git branches etc
Apr 01 20:12:27 <jjmcd>	pots I mean
Apr 01 20:12:38 <Sparks>	pots or pits
Apr 01 20:12:48 <jjmcd>	We still need a strategy for l10n
Apr 01 20:12:55 <quaid>	I clarified on the timing to f-devel-l et al, 
fwiw
Apr 01 20:13:09 <jjmcd>	to see a clean one pot system while not loosing 
our 30~ pots
Apr 01 20:13:24 <jjmcd>	but I don't see that as a big problem
Apr 01 20:14:03 <stickster>	jjmcd: The "strategy" is, I think, to 
create a new git branch, put the one POT in that branch and remove the 
other POTs, have Transifex use that branch, and let the L10n'ers know.
Apr 01 20:14:13 <jjmcd>	Yep I think that's it
Apr 01 20:14:26 <quaid>	that's more like a tactic, in my book :)
Apr 01 20:14:30 <stickster>	The 'master' branch will retain 
everything in a normal Publican fashion
Apr 01 20:14:54 <jjmcd>	that was my thought, assuming tx can use an 
arbitrary branch
Apr 01 20:14:54 <stickster>	quaid: Yeah, you caught me, but I think 
that's what was asked for
Apr 01 20:14:58 <quaid>	we need to interact with an admin of 
translate.fedoraproject.org
Apr 01 20:15:09 <quaid>	although theoretically we could grow knowledge 
of how to add modules within our group, if we want
Apr 01 20:15:13 <stickster>	I'm sure either Rasther or glezos would 
be able to help there.
Apr 01 20:15:30 <rudi>	So are we planning to have L10N create one big 
po per language?
Apr 01 20:15:37 <jjmcd>	yep
Apr 01 20:15:53 <jjmcd>	Then we will merge those strings into the 
individual pos
Apr 01 20:15:54 <quaid>	and then slice it up to reinsert in to Publican?
Apr 01 20:16:00 <jjmcd>	exactly
Apr 01 20:16:07 <quaid>	ah, ok, that's a nicer way to say it, merge.
Apr 01 20:16:28 <jjmcd>	Apparently there is some tool
Apr 01 20:16:28 <Sparks>	slice and dice
Apr 01 20:16:30 <rudi>	That will be an non-trivial task for the Install 
guide with ~700 po files
Apr 01 20:16:55 <quaid>	only if it requires manual intervention?
Apr 01 20:16:57 <jjmcd>	bash is my friend
Apr 01 20:17:04 *	laubersm 
(n=laubersm at 72-255-35-203.client.stsn.net) has joined #fedora-meeting
Apr 01 20:17:24 <stickster>	jjmcd: yes, msgmerge
Apr 01 20:17:25 <jjmcd>	I'm happy to see so many people raise their 
hands to help
Apr 01 20:17:44 *	quaid loves to play in bash
Apr 01 20:18:11 *	jjmcd often reverts to C - the angels' language
Apr 01 20:18:11 <stickster>	jjmcd: I can do the Virt beat
Apr 01 20:18:25 <quaid>	where is the list?
Apr 01 20:18:31 <stickster>	quaid: See above ^^^^
Apr 01 20:18:35 <jjmcd>	We got good content, but the conversion will be 
a bit of a pain
Apr 01 20:18:36 *	laubersm pops in to try to catch up
Apr 01 20:18:47 <stickster>	'round 00:04
Apr 01 20:19:08 <jjmcd>	http://fpaste.org/paste/7653
Apr 01 20:20:17 <jjmcd>	laubersm: Need to get done tomorrow midday ehat 
we're talking about
Apr 01 20:20:20 <Sparks>	jjmcd: Is there anything we can 
steal/borrow from KDE and GNOME for arch specific?
Apr 01 20:20:33 <stickster>	Sparks: Wouldn't make sense, they're 
higher up the stack.
Apr 01 20:20:45 <stickster>	Typically those involve things like 
minimum hardware requirements and install gotchas
Apr 01 20:20:54 <Sparks>	stickster: Ahhh.. Okay
Apr 01 20:20:55 <jjmcd>	I didn't see anything arch specific there - I'm 
not so sure there really is anything
Apr 01 20:21:11 <jjmcd>	OK, so maybe we need to review the F10 notes
Apr 01 20:22:07 <Sparks>	Okay...  let's come back to this at the 
end to get the volunteers.
Apr 01 20:22:28 <Sparks>	any other questions about the Release 
notes?
Apr 01 20:22:58 *	Sparks has changed the topic to: Docs Project - 
Beat writers flagging content for alpha/beta one-sheet
Apr 01 20:23:10 <quaid>	ok, this was mine
Apr 01 20:23:12 <Sparks>	Okay... not sure what this is but I'm 
pretty sure I didn't put it up
Apr 01 20:23:14 <Sparks>	Oh good... 
Apr 01 20:23:16 <Sparks>	Go quaid 
Apr 01 20:23:55 <quaid>	a question came up on f-i18n-l because they have 
some cool new tech (ibus) that didn't get in either the announcement and 
or the one page Beta notes
Apr 01 20:24:01 <quaid>	I'm sure it's on their beat
Apr 01 20:24:06 *	inode0 has quit ("Leaving.")
Apr 01 20:24:08 <quaid>	and that is where it *should* be, right?
Apr 01 20:24:12 <quaid>	they right one source, etc.
Apr 01 20:24:26 <quaid>	but how do the rest of us know what needs early 
Alpha or Beta mention, talking points, etc.
Apr 01 20:24:31 <quaid>	other than combing features, etc.
Apr 01 20:24:35 <quaid>	so I wondered what to do?
Apr 01 20:24:53 <quaid>	at the least, give beat writers a way to flag 
their content as worth a mention in either the Alpha or Beta or Preview 
...
Apr 01 20:25:30 *	jjmcd would rather leave that to the marketing 
guys
Apr 01 20:25:53 *	k0k (n=k0k at fedora/k0k) has joined 
#fedora-meeting
Apr 01 20:25:57 *	Sparks has an idea
Apr 01 20:26:27 <quaid>	jjmcd: well, the announcement and talking points 
... but what about release notes worthy content?  and can this all be 
covered with one set of instructions for beat writers?
Apr 01 20:26:38 *	izaac has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection 
reset by peer))
Apr 01 20:26:39 *	quaid has no plan fwiw
Apr 01 20:26:45 <Sparks>	Okay... Just an idea...
Apr 01 20:26:48 <quaid>	just that we have a system we can build on, etc.
Apr 01 20:26:51 *	quaid listens
Apr 01 20:27:10 <Sparks>	If each beat is its own page...
Apr 01 20:27:17 <Sparks>	they can be marked with a category...
Apr 01 20:27:28 <Sparks>	and then we can use those categories to 
create the docs...
Apr 01 20:27:48 <Sparks>	so when they are ready for their item to 
be included they just add the appropriate cat.
Apr 01 20:27:52 <Sparks>	<eof>
Apr 01 20:28:03 <quaid>	aren't they in a category or two already?
Apr 01 20:28:21 <Sparks>	Maybe... 
Apr 01 20:28:28 <quaid>	ok, we could have a [[Category:Release notes 
beat Beta content]] for example
Apr 01 20:28:33 <Sparks>	yes
Apr 01 20:28:39 *	quaid sees that some are not in a category, 
*ick* :D
Apr 01 20:28:43 <Sparks>	So we would see when something got added 
to that cat.
Apr 01 20:28:55 <quaid>	right, that sources it
Apr 01 20:29:03 <jjmcd>	The category makes a page, tho.  DevTools has 
over 100 changes
Apr 01 20:29:06 <Sparks>	This is being done for something but I 
don't remember what it is
Apr 01 20:29:15 <quaid>	if they want to consider something as a talking 
point for release announcements and PR, they could add that cat, too, i 
suppose.
Apr 01 20:29:38 <Sparks>	And they shouldn't add the cat until 
they are DONE... finished... no more editing.
Apr 01 20:29:41 <quaid>	jjmcd: so we'd need some way within the page to 
mark specific content ...
Apr 01 20:29:48 <jjmcd>	Yeah
Apr 01 20:29:51 <quaid>	Sparks: well, not for Beta, for example
Apr 01 20:30:01 <Sparks>	Well............
Apr 01 20:30:02 <Sparks>	yeah
Apr 01 20:30:13 <quaid>	and we need to churn discussion before beats are 
done; Paul and marketing
Apr 01 20:30:30 <quaid>	have been talking up stuff that are mainly
Apr 01 20:30:32 <quaid>	in feature pages.
Apr 01 20:31:04 <jjmcd>	That discussion mostly on dev-list?
Apr 01 20:31:15 <quaid>	no, I mean Marketing
Apr 01 20:31:28 <quaid>	to the press, blogs, talking points, etc.
Apr 01 20:31:54 *	stickster points out that Marketing concentrates 
on just a few features that have a really compelling story that can be 
built around them
Apr 01 20:31:57 <jjmcd>	mmmm .... good point, there are a lot of cool 
stuff that ain't on the feature pages
Apr 01 20:32:34 <quaid>	stickster: I'm thinking we might as well have a 
way for beat writers to hook in to that machine with suggestions without 
having to create a feature page; a feature doesn't always apply, does 
it?
Apr 01 20:32:57 <stickster>	What do you mean, have beat writers 
suggest stories to Marketing?
Apr 01 20:33:23 <quaid>	a beat writer may know about a technical change 
that is worthy of being a talking point, but that isn't a Feature
Apr 01 20:33:32 *	k0k has quit ("Saliendo")
Apr 01 20:33:39 <quaid>	and since Docs
Apr 01 20:33:43 <quaid>	does the release announcements
Apr 01 20:33:53 <quaid>	and does it on more than just the talking points 
for the Alpha ... PR
Apr 01 20:34:06 <quaid>	it helps if we know some of that too, right?
Apr 01 20:34:20 <jjmcd>	There are many groups of features that would be 
exciting to some niche audiences.  I don't know whether the marketing 
guys have the cycles for that, but it could be fertile ground
Apr 01 20:34:35 <quaid>	well, we can collect it without using it.
Apr 01 20:34:35 <stickster>	jjmcd: The point of the Marketing 
talking points is to reach the widest possible audience
Apr 01 20:34:54 <jjmcd>	Yes, so it is different from the talking points
Apr 01 20:34:55 <stickster>	quaid: I guess I'm not seeing where a 
technical change that's not a feature is going to be important enough to 
qualify
Apr 01 20:35:08 <stickster>	Maybe an example would help
Apr 01 20:35:08 <quaid>	however, we have niche audiences that could get 
niche release focuse; e.g. software developers
Apr 01 20:35:15 <jjmcd>	exctly
Apr 01 20:35:32 <jjmcd>	Chitlesh has a nice story for electronic 
designers
Apr 01 20:35:50 <jjmcd>	there are a lot of goodies for hams
Apr 01 20:35:53 <stickster>	quaid: And that's the purpose of the 
reorganized release notes, right?
Apr 01 20:35:55 <quaid>	heh, I dunno, if it's not a feature, how do I 
know about it?
Apr 01 20:36:10 <stickster>	i.e. "New for Software Developers," "New 
for SysAdmins," etc.
Apr 01 20:36:23 <quaid>	stickster: right, and having a beat writer call 
out the top 10 items from 100 devel tool changes would be helpful
Apr 01 20:36:25 <jjmcd>	But do you go tell that to Dr. Dobbs Journal?
Apr 01 20:37:08 <stickster>	I think it's important for us not to 
overload the talking point process right now, which is young and still 
unsteady on its feet
Apr 01 20:37:10 <quaid>	stickster: well, ok, I guess it undermines the 
feature process of "own it enough to make a feature page and you get 
marketing attention"
Apr 01 20:37:20 <stickster>	quaid: Good point.
Apr 01 20:37:25 <quaid>	but we can collect that info via categories
Apr 01 20:37:38 <quaid>	to gather foci for Alpha, Beta, and PR
Apr 01 20:37:55 <quaid>	I think the final announcement needs to continue 
the tight-and-not-overloaded following of the talking points we have 
established.
Apr 01 20:38:09 <jjmcd>	Yes I agree
Apr 01 20:38:22 <quaid>	ok, I'll make a note in my ever morphing task 
list
Apr 01 20:38:33 <quaid>	to create a set of categories for the beats to 
use as a workflow/transition state flags
Apr 01 20:38:35 *	jsmith 
(n=jsmith at asterisk/training-and-documentation-guru/jsmith) has joined 
#fedora-meeting
Apr 01 20:38:38 <jjmcd>	But it seems to me it would be cool id Paul 
colud have a story for some niche publications that might not be 
interested in just another Linux release
Apr 01 20:38:44 *	zwu|gone is now known as zwu
Apr 01 20:38:48 <quaid>	and we can publicize those for the Preview 
Release
Apr 01 20:39:09 <quaid>	jjmcd: well, maybe the process of convering as 
we go on the relnotes helps him find that stuff earlier
Apr 01 20:39:45 <jjmcd>	Perhaps we should have some "cool for this 
audience" wiki pages
Apr 01 20:40:00 *	Sparks notes that it is 40 minutes after the 
hour and spot needs to go eat...
Apr 01 20:40:56 <Sparks>	quaid: So you have a plan?
Apr 01 20:40:56 *	quaid is done with his task taken
Apr 01 20:41:01 <Sparks>	:)
Apr 01 20:41:02 <quaid>	I think we got it, yeah
Apr 01 20:41:04 <Sparks>	anything else?
Apr 01 20:41:05 <quaid>	thx
Apr 01 20:41:09 <quaid>	eoitem
Apr 01 20:41:16 *	Sparks has changed the topic to: Docs Project - 
An update to "Publican fix for Fedora?"
Apr 01 20:41:25 <quaid>	thx for hanging spot :D
Apr 01 20:41:28 <spot>	so... let me make a few points quickly here
Apr 01 20:41:42 <spot>	I have given this a LOT of thought over the last 
day or so
Apr 01 20:41:58 <spot>	especially after learning about the limitations 
of our build/errata tools and RPM
Apr 01 20:42:24 <spot>	my biggest concern about lang separated SRPMs is 
this: In RHEL, there are 2,104 doc packages
Apr 01 20:42:37 <spot>	thats 2104 reviews.
Apr 01 20:42:41 <Sparks>	wow
Apr 01 20:42:46 <stickster>	That's scary.
Apr 01 20:42:52 <jsmith>	A plethora!
Apr 01 20:43:00 <spot>	i honestly don't think it scales without a 
concerted effort
Apr 01 20:43:19 <spot>	now, if you guys say "we'll tag team and knock 
them all out on our own", then i will back away slowly
Apr 01 20:43:47 <spot>	as is, we approved the other two items that were 
on FPC's agenda on tuesday
Apr 01 20:43:56 <spot>	* permitting desktop files inline
Apr 01 20:44:15 <spot>	* allowing distro versioning in name when Docs 
Project determines it is necessary
Apr 01 20:44:33 <spot>	so, once FESCo ratifies those items
Apr 01 20:44:43 <spot>	(which they should do on Friday, hopefully)
Apr 01 20:44:54 <quaid>	should we have $who there?
Apr 01 20:45:12 <spot>	there would be nothing preventing you guys from 
filing package review requests for several thousand doc packages
Apr 01 20:45:29 <spot>	the guidelines don't say you can't carpetbomb 
the review requests
Apr 01 20:46:01 *	stickster shudders to see other packager 
reaction at both that, and then the film-in-reverse anti-carpetbombing 
of review approvals
Apr 01 20:46:24 <spot>	i really wish there was a way to make the lang 
packages as subpackages, but in talking to folks like paul and mike 
hideo about this issue, i don't think that it is possible
Apr 01 20:46:29 *	Sparks thinks we'll have to get a B-29 for the 
bombing
Apr 01 20:46:49 <spot>	the only thing i would suggest is this
Apr 01 20:47:05 <spot>	Write a simplified template for doing publican 
based doc reviews
Apr 01 20:47:18 <spot>	also, write a review checklist
Apr 01 20:47:23 <spot>	and publicize the hell out of it
Apr 01 20:47:38 <spot>	so that you have an example "good spec" and a 
checklist
Apr 01 20:47:49 <spot>	i'd be happy to sanity check both
Apr 01 20:48:05 <spot>	then, i wish you luck and i hide in my bunker
Apr 01 20:48:13 <jjmcd>	;)
Apr 01 20:48:15 <quaid>	isn't Publican supposed to kick out an SRPM that 
can be directly and minimally reviewed?
Apr 01 20:48:20 <Sparks>	We'll definitely be checking in with you 
so we are all in sync.
Apr 01 20:48:29 <Sparks>	quaid: Supposed to
Apr 01 20:48:30 <quaid>	that is, once the base of what it does is 
approved or fixed or whathaveyou ...
Apr 01 20:48:50 <Sparks>	quaid: Once Publican behaves itself then 
it should be too difficult to review.
Apr 01 20:48:51 <spot>	quaid: yes, but you have to realize that the 
average person is going to see 
"HolyCrap-Documentation_Everywhere-OMG_WTF-1.0-ja"
Apr 01 20:48:58 <spot>	and they aren't going to want to review it.
Apr 01 20:49:07 <quaid>	are we considering the multiple language SRPMS 
because:
Apr 01 20:49:16 <quaid>	a) Publican only supports that and we have no 
choice
Apr 01 20:49:28 <quaid>	b) We think it's the right way to go (f-r-n is 
20 MB and growing ...)
Apr 01 20:49:40 <spot>	quaid: our infrastructure can't handle updating 
just a single lang subpackage
Apr 01 20:49:42 <quaid>	c) Publican could be made to support something 
else and we'd prefer that, but can't make that happen
Apr 01 20:49:59 <Sparks>	d) all of the above
Apr 01 20:50:05 <spot>	so, if that is important to you, your only real 
option is to separate out by lang
Apr 01 20:50:12 <quaid>	ah
Apr 01 20:50:19 <spot>	i tried literally for several hours to find 
another way
Apr 01 20:50:21 <quaid>	so if i want to update the French release notes
Apr 01 20:50:23 <spot>	there just isn't one
Apr 01 20:50:26 <stickster>	quaid: Yeah, ianweller unfortunately was 
mistaken about that one
Apr 01 20:50:27 <quaid>	right now I need to push a whole package
Apr 01 20:50:36 <quaid>	 and with subpackages, i would have to update 
the base and all the subs?
Apr 01 20:50:51 <quaid>	but with true stand-alone perlang packages, i 
can update them individually.
Apr 01 20:50:57 <stickster>	quaid: Right.
Apr 01 20:51:00 <quaid>	ok
Apr 01 20:51:07 <stickster>	At least, spot and f13 both say that's 
how it works.
Apr 01 20:51:13 <stickster>	(which to me means bankworthy)
Apr 01 20:51:14 <quaid>	so
Apr 01 20:51:28 <quaid>	if (b) is the way, we think it's right and 
Publican is pushing us in the right direction ...
Apr 01 20:51:37 <quaid>	then doesn't our decision fall from that 
realization?
Apr 01 20:51:46 <spot>	well, again, the question is:
Apr 01 20:51:59 <spot>	how realistic is your need to push single lang 
subpackages separately?
Apr 01 20:52:02 <rudi>	Packaged up I don't know how big it would be, 
but right now the IG with its 36 languages and dozens of screenshots in 
each language is up to 600 MB here
Apr 01 20:52:07 <jjmcd>	We have a ways to go before we get to 
"thousands", but not as far as we would like
Apr 01 20:52:09 <spot>	if it is a real need, then its a need.
Apr 01 20:52:21 <glezos>	stickster, indeed, we'll be happy to 
provide any help requested.
Apr 01 20:52:37 <quaid>	rudi: hot diggity!
Apr 01 20:53:00 <stickster>	It's a real need in my experience, IFF. 
we want to respond to translation updates quickly and uniformly from web 
to RPM.
Apr 01 20:53:20 <quaid>	(user guide + install guide + release notes + 
security guide + selinux guide) * 10 $lang_average == about what we can 
expect
Apr 01 20:53:35 <spot>	stickster: okay then. your only option is lang 
separated packages.
Apr 01 20:53:43 <quaid>	so not 2000, more like 50+ and not all at once
Apr 01 20:54:02 <spot>	your biggest hurdle will be getting them 
reviewed
Apr 01 20:54:05 <glezos>	stickster, the Q is how quickly? We have 
the same needs with normal packages, but we don't have langpacks.
Apr 01 20:54:25 <stickster>	glezos: For much the same reasons
Apr 01 20:54:32 <stickster>	Look, Docs is blazing a trail!
Apr 01 20:54:32 <quaid>	we need a few sponsors in
Apr 01 20:54:33 <stickster>	wooo
Apr 01 20:54:34 <quaid>	Docs
Apr 01 20:54:53 *	quaid looks at ke4qqq 
Apr 01 20:55:02 <spot>	you don't have to be a sponsor to do a review.
Apr 01 20:55:05 <spot>	just sponsored.
Apr 01 20:55:12 <quaid>	ok
Apr 01 20:55:23 <spot>	and if you're low on that front, let me know
Apr 01 20:55:25 <quaid>	I don't want the review process in our way.
Apr 01 20:55:31 <spot>	i can almost certainly sponsor some folks
Apr 01 20:55:37 <stickster>	I'm sponsored
Apr 01 20:55:41 *	quaid will sign up
Apr 01 20:55:45 <stickster>	I maintain some packages already
Apr 01 20:55:53 *	Sparks would like to be
Apr 01 20:56:07 <stickster>	What would be *most* helpful is for 
someoneNotMe() to write the template review.
Apr 01 20:56:10 <quaid>	Sparks: let's do it, like buddy parachuting!
Apr 01 20:56:16 *	izaac (n=izaac at fedora/izaac) has joined 
#fedora-meeting
Apr 01 20:56:25 <Sparks>	If we could manage it all in house, that 
could alleviate some of the problems that we are facing, imo
Apr 01 20:56:26 <stickster>	If the template's there, I can commit to 
a mess o' reviews.
Apr 01 20:56:52 *	Sparks votes to give all packages to stickster 
for review
Apr 01 20:57:00 <Sparks>	quaid: Yeah!
Apr 01 20:57:07 *	spot hates to run, but is there anything else 
you need from me? :)
Apr 01 20:57:22 <Sparks>	spot: What does it take to knight us?
Apr 01 20:57:53 <spot>	Sparks: if by that you mean "sponsor", i just 
need to see that you possess basic RPM competancy and an understanding 
of the Fedora Packaging Guidelines
Apr 01 20:58:01 <spot>	usually, i do that with a new package review
Apr 01 20:58:20 *	Sparks has had his package in review since 
DECEMBER!
Apr 01 20:58:30 <spot>	Sparks: email me the bz
Apr 01 20:58:34 <spot>	i will look at it tomorrow
Apr 01 20:58:49 <Sparks>	spot: I will but you'll hate it.
Apr 01 20:58:50 <Sparks>	:)
Apr 01 20:58:57 <Sparks>	Okay, anything else for spot?
Apr 01 20:58:58 <spot>	is it mono? java?
Apr 01 20:59:03 <jjmcd>	Don't takt Sparks away from the Networking RNs
Apr 01 20:59:06 <spot>	fortran77?
Apr 01 20:59:09 <Sparks>	spot: Security-Guide
Apr 01 20:59:17 <quaid>	Sparks: I think you have what you need if FESCo 
ratifies to get it approved, right?
Apr 01 20:59:26 <Sparks>	quaid: Kinda...
Apr 01 20:59:37 <quaid>	he's already on the Cc: on that bug iirc
Apr 01 20:59:41 <Sparks>	Ok
Apr 01 20:59:51 <Sparks>	Thanks spot!  Go have some supper.
Apr 01 20:59:57 <spot>	thanks guys, good luck.
Apr 01 20:59:59 <quaid>	so update the bug with the ratified guidelines 
as a tickler :)
Apr 01 21:00:01 <quaid>	thx Sparks
Apr 01 21:00:04 <quaid>	spot I mean!
Apr 01 21:00:10 *	spot puts on his crash helmet and dives into a 
foxhole
Apr 01 21:00:19 <Sparks>	spot: Yeah, that's probably needed.
Apr 01 21:00:25 <Sparks>	Okay, so anything else on the topic?
Apr 01 21:00:41 <quaid>	Docs_team++
Apr 01 21:00:51 <Sparks>	Okay... next up is...
Apr 01 21:00:54 *	Sparks has changed the topic to: Docs Project - 
Fedora Documentation Steering Committee (FDSC) Charter
Apr 01 21:01:02 <Sparks>	Wow, is this thing old...
Apr 01 21:01:19 <jjmcd>	stable - better word
Apr 01 21:01:20 *	leitz 
(n=leitz at adsl-21-134-243.clt.bellsouth.net) has joined #fedora-meeting
Apr 01 21:01:26 *	lfoppiano has quit ("Ex-Chat")
Apr 01 21:01:53 <Sparks>	
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_Steering_Committee_charter
Apr 01 21:02:00 <Sparks>	jjmcd: Ha!  
Apr 01 21:02:07 <Sparks>	Oh, it's stable... and buggy
Apr 01 21:02:37 <Sparks>	So I'm not going to get into it tonight 
but take a peek at it, add your comments to the Talk page, and we'll 
come back to it next week.
Apr 01 21:02:58 <Sparks>	Questions?  Comments?  Crude remarks?
Apr 01 21:03:14 <quaid>	mmm, tasty cruft
Apr 01 21:03:36 <Sparks>	Okay... next up is...
Apr 01 21:03:38 *	Sparks has changed the topic to: Docs Project - 
CMS Update <-- ke4qqq
Apr 01 21:03:47 <Sparks>	ke4qqq: What do you have for us tonight?
Apr 01 21:04:31 <Sparks>	ke4qqq: ???
Apr 01 21:05:01 <Sparks>	Okay, he might not be here tonight.  I 
know the core has been packaged and he was working on getting modules 
packaged.
Apr 01 21:05:16 <Sparks>	If anyone has some spare time I'm sure 
he could use you to work on packaging.
Apr 01 21:05:32 <Sparks>	Questions?  Comments?
Apr 01 21:05:46 *	Sparks has changed the topic to: Docs Project - 
DocsProject wiki pages changes
Apr 01 21:06:09 <Sparks>	Okay, so I archived some pages today 
that were dealing with FDSCo stuff from years past.
Apr 01 21:06:33 <jjmcd>	You're erasing our history???
Apr 01 21:06:37 <Sparks>	laubersm: What tasks are pending for the 
wiki?
Apr 01 21:06:39 *	danielsmw gasps
Apr 01 21:06:46 <Sparks>	jjmcd: Archiving is NOT the same as 
erasing.
Apr 01 21:06:50 <Sparks>	gees
Apr 01 21:07:04 *	Sparks wishes he could archive jjmcd... :)
Apr 01 21:07:10 *	danielsmw gasps again
Apr 01 21:07:21 <jjmcd>	That guy is nothing but trouble
Apr 01 21:07:40 <Sparks>	Have we stayed up past everyone's bed 
time?
Apr 01 21:07:48 *	Sparks has changed the topic to: Docs Project - 
Open Discussion
Apr 01 21:07:51 <jjmcd>	I saw laubersm come in
Apr 01 21:08:00 <Sparks>	Okay... It's late...  does anyone have 
anything they want to talk about?
Apr 01 21:08:01 *	glezos still sees his name on an FDSCo page and 
wondering why the hell it's there since there are so many awesome guys 
working on Docs today.
Apr 01 21:08:02 <danielsmw>	Oh, I have something to say
Apr 01 21:08:15 <stickster>	It's better to burn out than to fade 
away!
Apr 01 21:08:15 *	laubersm is on pda = slow typing
Apr 01 21:08:21 <danielsmw>	A while ago I made a compat package to 
make mw-render work again
Apr 01 21:08:26 <Sparks>	laubersm: yikes
Apr 01 21:08:34 <danielsmw>	but i'm not getting sponsored because i 
basically do no other packaging
Apr 01 21:08:36 <quaid>	glezos: cruft abounds in the house of the 
carpenter
Apr 01 21:08:40 <danielsmw>	anyone else want to take it and submit?
Apr 01 21:08:57 <glezos>	quaid, what can we do to change it?
Apr 01 21:09:05 *	inode0 (n=inode0 at fedora/inode0) has joined 
#fedora-meeting
Apr 01 21:09:08 <quaid>	glezos: volunteer to help clean up wiki pages :)
Apr 01 21:09:14 <Sparks>	danielsmw: That sucks...  Okay, so do 
you have a bz ticket #?
Apr 01 21:09:23 <glezos>	oh -- it's just wiki pages then.
Apr 01 21:09:24 <quaid>	danielsmw: I think you should get to be the 
packager
Apr 01 21:09:25 <danielsmw>	Sparks: yeah, hold on
Apr 01 21:09:32 <danielsmw>	quaid: a good idea as well
Apr 01 21:09:39 <quaid>	glezos: well, maybe f-docs-l admin or something, 
stuff that's decentralized
Apr 01 21:09:51 <danielsmw>	Sparks: 491946
Apr 01 21:10:06 <Sparks>	.bug 491946
Apr 01 21:10:08 <buggbot>	Bug 
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=491946 medium, low, 
---, nobody, NEW, Review Request: odfpy07 - compat package for odfpy
Apr 01 21:10:10 <zodbot>	Sparks: Bug 491946 Review Request: 
odfpy07 - compat package for odfpy - 
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=491946
Apr 01 21:10:11 <buggbot>	Bug 491946: medium, low, ---, nobody, 
NEW, Review Request: odfpy07 - compat package for odfpy
Apr 01 21:11:04 <Sparks>	stickster: you said you could review 
packages?
Apr 01 21:11:14 <Sparks>	:)
Apr 01 21:11:43 <quaid>	how about abadger1999 or spot
Apr 01 21:11:49 <Sparks>	Yeah, spot!
Apr 01 21:12:19 <Sparks>	danielsmw: It took my package a while to 
get noticed.  I think mhideo went and poked one of his Brisbane guys to 
do it.
Apr 01 21:12:20 <abadger1999>	k.  I'll take it.
Apr 01 21:12:33 <Sparks>	Now that's service right there.
Apr 01 21:12:42 <quaid>	yeah, we can do better reviewing within this 
team
Apr 01 21:12:43 <abadger1999>	Are we sure that the package can't be 
ported to the current version of odfpy?
Apr 01 21:12:43 <danielsmw>	lol
Apr 01 21:12:51 <quaid>	and call in favors once it's ready to get 
sponsorship
Apr 01 21:13:15 <Sparks>	quaid: +1
Apr 01 21:14:01 <Sparks>	laubersm: Did you have anything for us 
tonight?
Apr 01 21:14:10 <laubersm>	no
Apr 01 21:14:28 <jjmcd>	laubersm: Want to help with research/conversion?
Apr 01 21:14:30 <Sparks>	laubersm: Okay, wanted to give you a 
chance to get in there with all the background noise going on.
Apr 01 21:15:11 <quaid>	jjmcd: I'm going to try really, really hard to 
appear at the right time and do whatever needs doing at that point.
Apr 01 21:15:30 <quaid>	is there an active [[Release notes tasks]] list?
Apr 01 21:15:49 <jjmcd>	I have an ODS, I should make it a wikipage I 
guess
Apr 01 21:16:04 <jjmcd>	But I see things disappearing from the list as 
we speak
Apr 01 21:16:04 <quaid>	yes plz
Apr 01 21:16:13 <quaid>	ah, your list
Apr 01 21:16:35 <quaid>	we just need on of the usual status with tracker 
and who has what "write, edit, convert to xml" columns
Apr 01 21:16:39 <jjmcd>	yes, what I fpasted is basically the short 
version
Apr 01 21:16:50 *	laubersm is teaching this on the road... will 
check list tomorrow
Apr 01 21:17:24 <jjmcd>	I suspect by the end of the Brisbane workday the 
list may look different
Apr 01 21:17:34 <laubersm>	rn due thur?  time in edt?
Apr 01 21:17:58 <jjmcd>	Need pots by 2359 and we need some time to 
prepare the pots
Apr 01 21:18:06 <jjmcd>	2359Z that is
Apr 01 21:18:17 *	warren has quit ("Leaving")
Apr 01 21:18:18 <jjmcd>	so 19L59 EDT
Apr 01 21:18:33 *	laubersm has time fri but that doesnt help
Apr 01 21:19:04 <jjmcd>	No, Friday we will be sorting the spec file and 
how to tear the big POs apart
Apr 01 21:19:04 *	zwu has quit (Remote closed the connection)
Apr 01 21:19:15 <quaid>	I didn't see any more pushback or request for 
more time
Apr 01 21:19:31 <quaid>	but we'll likely see new content for the final 
notes
Apr 01 21:19:42 <quaid>	that might have been in this time, possibly 
maybe
Apr 01 21:19:47 <jjmcd>	quaid: We can make 2359, but the more hands the 
better the quality
Apr 01 21:19:56 <quaid>	righto
Apr 01 21:20:13 <rudi>	Quick question - I feel like I'm missing the 
point of something here; why are the individual po files still a problem 
for L10N?
Apr 01 21:20:33 *	Sonar_Guy has quit ("Leaving")
Apr 01 21:20:40 <jjmcd>	Transifex only can deal with one
Apr 01 21:21:18 <jjmcd>	Kinda like Publican, and easy fix but ......
Apr 01 21:21:59 <rudi>	But I've seen translators committing 
translations of the Publican Common Content sections; with more than one 
po file in the directories in question
Apr 01 21:22:11 <quaid>	via Tx?
Apr 01 21:22:16 <rudi>	Yep
Apr 01 21:22:38 <quaid>	well, even after Paul and Dimitris explained it 
today, I still had gaps in my brain about it.
Apr 01 21:23:10 <rudi>	Let me verify what I believe I've seen; but we 
can talk about that after the meeting anyway
Apr 01 21:23:17 <quaid>	I got that the web interface doesn't have a way 
to display (for download, upload, statistics) the individual PO/POT 
files
Apr 01 21:23:20 <quaid>	k
Apr 01 21:23:47 <Sparks>	Anything else?
Apr 01 21:24:18 <Sparks>	5
Apr 01 21:24:22 <Sparks>	4
Apr 01 21:24:24 <Sparks>	3
Apr 01 21:24:27 <Sparks>	2
Apr 01 21:24:30 <Sparks>	1
Apr 01 21:24:34 <Sparks>	Thanks everyone for coming!
Apr 01 21:24:34 <Sparks>	</meeting>
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