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Docs meeting 2009-02-04 IRC log


11:01 < quaid> <meeting id="Docs team">
11:02 < jjmcd> yo
11:02 < zoglesby> hello
11:03  * jjmcd may be a little slow on the uptake today ... got drops
   in his eyes and can't see so good
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11:04  * quaid getting link to agenda, on sec
11:04 < quaid>
11:06 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs mtg ::
   F11 schedule confirmation/ratification
11:06 -!- fbijlsma [n=fbijlsma 217 110 39 107] has quit [Read error:
   110 (Connection timed out)]
11:06 < quaid> if you look at that page above, there are links to the
   schedule and poelcat's last post on it
11:07 < quaid>
11:07 < quaid> that's our main one
11:07  * stickster back now
11:07 < quaid> anyone had a chance to look at that before?
11:07 < stickster> quaid: This one might help too:
11:08 < stickster>
11:08 < stickster> Shows lining up of Docs w/L10n.
11:08 < stickster> I sent poelcat a comment or two about that one IIRC
11:08 < quaid> wazzat?
11:09 < jjmcd> What precisely is "String freeze"?
11:09 < stickster> I think it was a clarification of how the item was
   stated on one line.
11:09 < quaid> jjmcd: it is 
11:09 < stickster> jjmcd: The point beyond which strings are not
11:09 -!- itamarjp
   [n=itamar 189-015-177-219 xd-dynamic ctbcnetsuper com br] has
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11:09 < stickster> jjmcd: For software, that means no further changes
   to dialog text, etc. that would make more work for translators.
11:10 < jjmcd> aha
11:10 < stickster> jjmcd: That way, starting with the string freeze,
   they are working with set-in-stone POTs for everything
11:10 < stickster> jjmcd: *occasionally* they will change, but
   violating the string freeze has to be requested from the L10n, or
      at least announced, and justified
11:10 < quaid> same for content
11:11 < quaid> so on our schedule, a "Translation Deadline" is the
   deadline for the l10n team to finish trans
11:11  * ke4qqq is late
11:11 < quaid> where a string freeze is our deadline for getting
   content finished for l10n to start on
11:11 -!- kgs [n=kgs c-69-254-162-212 hsd1 fl comcast net] has joined
11:11 < jjmcd> OK, so basically, L10n focuses on translating software
   for beta, docs for release
11:12 < quaid> for preview and final release
11:12  * quaid confirms that
11:12 -!- jwb [n=jwboyer fedora/jwb] has quit [Read error: 104
   (Connection reset by peer)]
11:12 < jjmcd> yah, didn't scroll all the way down to previes
11:12 < quaid> that's actually where it gets confusing
11:12 -!- jwb [n=jwboyer fedora/jwb] has joined #fedora-meeting
11:12 < quaid> the time between beta and preview is so tight ...
11:13 -!- lfoppiano [n=lfoppian fedora/lfoppiano] has joined
11:14 -!- warren [n=warren redhat/wombat/warren] has quit ["Leaving"]
11:14 < quaid> yeah, it looks like 4-14 is the trans deadline for the
   release notes, and we build it on 4-21
11:14 < jjmcd> seems like for F10 we had like 3 betas
11:16 < quaid> ok, I don't think I see anything that bothers me
11:16 < quaid> what other clarifications can we provide?
11:18  * stickster waves to ke4qqq
11:18 < quaid> we should hear from Sparks (and ke4qqq !) before
11:18 < quaid> we can push this to later via IRC when they are
11:19 < jjmcd> and ryanlerch
11:19 < quaid> that is, I think ke4qqq was there and jsmith certainly
   was when we made the schedule
11:19 < quaid> yeah, good point
11:19 < quaid> how about this
11:19 < stickster> Right
11:19 < quaid> I'll take the task of talking with everyone today
11:19 < stickster> We should just ask Sparks to stamp it (if agreed)
   and communicate with Poelstra
11:19  * ke4qqq waves back at stickster 
11:19  * stickster just totally resaid what everyone else just said.
11:19 < quaid> and we'll get questions or approval or whatever worked
   out by ~0100 UTC Th.
11:20 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs mtg ::
   CMS update
11:20 < quaid> good timing ke4qqq 
11:20 < ke4qqq> lol
11:20 < ke4qqq> I suppose
11:20 < jjmcd> Does ryanlerch even come online by then?  Thats only la
   few hours from now
11:21 < ke4qqq> he's got almost 4 hours
11:21  * jjmcd shouldn't have told the optometrist "oh yeah, we can do
   the dilation thing this year"
11:21 < quaid> jjmcd: yeah, unless he sleeps in, six hours from now is
   late enough
11:22 < quaid> 0100 isn't a hard deadline, that's roughly COB on PST.
11:22 < jjmcd> K, I knew I've been seeing him in tghe evening, but
   haven't been watching the clock that close
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   (Operation timed out)]
11:22 -!- danielsmw [n=danielsm user-24-214-179-165 knology net] has
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11:22 < ke4qqq> anyway - CMS - so 1.1.1 zikula came out, and they are
   actually doing a dedicated server build (as opposed to shared
      hosting) to accommodate some of my complaints, but they'll have
         that available to everyone
11:23 -!- kulll [n=kulll 203 82 91 34] has joined #fedora-meeting
11:23 < ke4qqq> rpm wise - I merely have to get the config file
   squared away to deal with all of the changes I requested that they
      made - otherwise it looks fine. I hopefully will have something
         up in a few days, and plan to dedicate the weekend to working
   	 on doing final tweaking
11:23  * quaid doesn't think Infra knew they'd get such a good vetting
   from Docs :)
11:24 < ke4qqq> yeah I thought the 16 .htaccess files was a bit
11:24 < ke4qqq> I mean I see the need, but it's drastically slower
11:25 < ke4qqq> so we'll have a dedicated .conf file to handle all of
11:25 < ke4qqq> anyway that's just the base package
11:25 < ke4qqq> we also have IIRC 8 modules
11:26 < ke4qqq> that we'll need to package I think
11:27 < quaid> are the Zikula folks interested in co-maintaining?
11:27 < ke4qqq> yes one of the zikula guys is working on the modules
11:27  * quaid is on the watch for packages Docs relies upon that only
   have a single maintainer :)
11:27 < quaid> kewl
11:27 < stickster> :-)
11:28 < ke4qqq> and they actually did the first push on the core
   package rpm, just some packaging guidelines that needed to be
11:28  * mmcgrath wonders if his notes to the list made sense about
11:29 < ke4qqq> mmcgrath: they did, but honestly I wasn't aware that
   either of the test sites were authing yet, just that we had
      discussed auth
11:30  * ke4qqq notes that's another module that we'll have to build a
   package for - as soon as we get source
11:31 < ke4qqq> and in response to your most recent message - IIRC
   there is already a cmsadmin group in fas now
11:31 < ke4qqq> sparks requested it last week
11:31 < mmcgrath> k, I'll re-create it in the test system
11:32 -!- warren [n=warren redhat/wombat/warren] has joined
11:33 < stickster> mmcgrath: I had to read between the lines a little
   -- what you meant is that we shouldn't be sending usernames and
      passphrases to a system that's not managed by the Fedora
         Infrastructure team, right?
11:33 < stickster> i.e. it's not a problem with Zikula or anyone else
   in particular, more just a general best practice.
11:33 -!- itbegins
   [n=itbegins nat-studcudn-172-24-62-0 fitz cam ac uk] has joined
11:34 < itbegins> sorry to be so late, caught up in traffic much worse
   than I expected
11:34 < mmcgrath> stickster: correct.
11:34 < itbegins> I've got no log, anything on the CMS you'd like me
   to answer?
11:34 < mmcgrath> Nothing against the zikula guys, just a policy we
   have is all.  We generally have a test infrastructure up.
11:34 < quaid> itbegins: no worries; there'll be an IRC log afterward;
   ke4qqq just gave us a status of packaging and such for CMS
11:35 < mmcgrath> so we threw the test account system up so they can
   auth against that until we're on the publictest servers, but
      everything should be golden again when they change from authing
         against admin.fp.o to authing against pt15 is all.
11:35 < mmcgrath> we've done this before in the past.
11:35 < mmcgrath> itbegins: did you get my messages to fedora-docs
   about auth?
11:35 < ke4qqq> mmcgrath: will we have to revert the ssl cert
   verification changes?
11:35  * ke4qqq assumes so
11:35 < ke4qqq> at least for client
11:35 < itbegins> mmcgrath: Just read them, that's fine and perfectly
11:36 < mmcgrath> ssl cert verification?
11:36 < mmcgrath> oh oh.
11:36 < mmcgrath> ke4qqq: yah, just for test though.  Thats why they
   were there :)
11:36 < ke4qqq> ok - shouldn't be a problem
11:37 < mmcgrath> itbegins: kew, I'm around all afternoon if you need
   help with the account system.  The one at publictest15 we can do
      whatever you want to with as far as creating and removing users
         and test groups.  go nuts!
11:37 < mmcgrath> :)
11:37 < ke4qqq> should be fun to play with regardless
11:37 < itbegins> mmcgrath: I've pretty much got it working, the only
   thing I think remains is syncing with FAS groups.  I plan to do
      that by creating groups with the same name in the CMS and just
         syncing on login
11:37 < mmcgrath> cool
11:38 < itbegins> There's also a fallback to the normal Zikula auth
   should FAS crash for any reason
11:38 < mmcgrath> itbegins: after the meeting come ping me in
   #fedora-admin and I'll make sure the group and your test account
      are all setup properly.
11:39 < itbegins> mmcgrath: Ok, thanks.  I'd also like that chat about
   php config/security
11:39 < mmcgrath> sure thing
11:39 -!- J5 [n=quintice nat/redhat/x-f71c8f9d3cfd209a] has quit
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11:39 < itbegins> Anything else people want to know about the CMS?
11:40 -!- J5 [n=quintice 66 187 234 199] has joined #fedora-meeting
11:41 < quaid> ok, we can move on then
11:41 -!- GeroldKa [n=GeroldKa fedora/geroldka] has joined
11:42 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs mtg ::
   Relnotes update
11:42 < quaid> jjmcd who cannot see ... have anything to add?
11:42 < jjmcd> No, sounds good to me
11:42  * quaid knows Alpha notes are out, ryanlerch was looking at
   converting to DocBook but don't know if he wanted to follow through
      with publishing them
11:43  * ke4qqq thought he had publicanized them already
11:43 < jjmcd> ryanlerch would like to do a routine wiki->DocBook
11:43 < quaid> sure
11:43 -!- zcat [n=zcat fedora/zcat] has quit []
11:43 < quaid> but he just ran in to the very reason we stopped :)
11:43 < ke4qqq> which is?
11:43 < quaid> it's "done" but not published
11:43 < ke4qqq> ahhh ok
11:43 < quaid> is it in git?
11:43 < quaid> can I go publish it right now?
11:44 -!- zcat [n=zcat fedora/zcat] has joined #fedora-meeting
11:44 < quaid> cf. the wiki which is there, done, published, let's
   move on-able
11:44 < quaid> we all just need to be aware that each of these does
   add complexity
11:45 < stickster> quaid: So what you're saying...
11:45  * jjmcd sees some regression test value in a routine build,
   esp. if automated
11:45 < stickster> is that we can publish on the wiki instantly,
11:45  * stickster scratches head.
11:45 < quaid> cannot yet on docs.fp.org, yes
11:46 < stickster> Ah, right.
11:46 < stickster> So we can't just publish the Publican output HTML
   on docs.fedoraproject.org.
11:46 < stickster> Because... style sheets will be wrong?
11:46 < quaid> I was more drawing the lines between the dots to
   explain what wasn't so obvious to people, i.e., why we had moved to
      the wiki for Alpha/Beta notes in the past.
11:46 < stickster> Or is it because we're still converting things to
   PHP and stuff gets stripped in the back and forth?
11:46 < quaid> we can just publish them
11:47 < quaid> sorry, I'm not being obvious, am I?
11:47 < itbegins> stickster: Part of the stuff I'm getting done for
   the CMS is a pull-from-source-and-publish bash script
11:47 < stickster> quaid: No, and we should be.
11:47 < quaid> until the desire to Publicanize them came about, the
   task was done.
11:47 < itbegins> stickster: Which you'll be able to access through
   the CMS admin section.
11:47 < quaid> once that desire took hold, the task was undone and we
   still don't have notes published for Alpha.
11:47 < quaid> nor a method for e.g. Jesse to add last minute
   information and not have to wait 24 hours for all the people and
      pieces to align.
11:48 -!- adamw [n=AdamW redhat/adamw] has left #fedora-meeting
11:48 < jjmcd> I gotta admit, I don't see the value for alpha
11:48 < stickster> Ah, there's the rub. If there's no change freeze in
   place significantly before release day, this gets almost impossible
      for someone.
11:48 < quaid> I get that we like the idea of prettier notes, but I
   think it's too late for Alpha, maybe do it for Beta.
11:49 < jjmcd> But I see enormous value in a routine, automatic
   DocBook version of what is currently in the wiki, so that when we
      finally do make the published version, there are no surprises.
11:49 < stickster> quaid: Then I would say we should add a task to the
   Docs schedule which is a one-sheet content freeze.
11:49 < quaid> but I'm not the hammer no more to say, "Forget about
   it," and I don't want to be discouraging where I see challenges due
      to myopia.
11:49 < stickster> (as well as a conversion and publication task for
   the Beta relnotes one-sheet)
11:50 < stickster> Sparks should probably address this, then.
11:50 < quaid> well ... if the release notes team thinks
   Publican-based notes are more important than up-to-date information
      and ease of publishing, then yes, they should do that.
11:50 < quaid> at some point, those converge and isn't an either/or
11:50 < quaid> until then ... one has to reign.
11:50 < stickster> quaid: Just to be clear, I recall why we wanted to
   do this only for Preview and Final.
11:51 < quaid> yeah, we'll leave this for ryan and sparks to hash out.
11:51 < jjmcd> Right answer
11:51 < quaid> stickster: yeah, I know :)
11:51 < stickster> But having it out on the table openly is important
   so the new folks can weigh it too.
11:52 < jjmcd> I think ryanlerch envisions wiki->DocBook on the
   crontab, and if he can actually do that I think its great
11:52 < jjmcd> but for the one pagers, I personally don't see the
11:52 < quaid> stickster: yeah, was trying to do that yesterday but
   didn't get there I reckon.
11:52 < quaid> ok, I've noted it in the summary
11:53 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs mtg ::
   Installation Guide status
11:53 < quaid> ke4qqq: have you begun to think about this?
11:53 < ke4qqq> ooh, me again
11:53 -!- cassmodiah [n=cass fedora/cassmodiah] has joined
11:53 < ke4qqq> yes - and I am delinquent in seeking help
11:53 < quaid> we can talk with jlaska/adamw about IG testing again
11:53 < ke4qqq> I need to put a call out for writers
11:54 < ke4qqq> it looks like eawest may not be able to join us this
   time since she is rapidly becoming great with child
11:54 < stickster> I always liked the term "gravid"
11:54 < ke4qqq> so I need to find an editor as well.
11:55 < ke4qqq> that or I'll be writing a lot and begging one of you
   to edit
11:55 < ke4qqq> oh, gravid is a great term
11:55 < ke4qqq> but we have a week or two to start writing
11:56 -!- Sonar_Guy [n=Baconz fedora/sonarguy] has quit ["Xchat
   destroyed by Operating System"]
11:56 < ke4qqq> I did change the owner in the owners list so stickster
   doesn't get besieged with tickets
11:56 -!- sdziallas [n=sebastia p57A2E336 dip t-dialin net] has joined
11:56 < quaid> yay
11:56 < stickster> w00t
11:57 < ke4qqq> I almost did the same for danielsmw and the ug, but
   wanted to make sure he had a bz account first
11:57 < quaid> ke4qqq: I'll be floating a bit more this time, so I'll
   be able to backfill.
11:57  * stickster notes mmcgrath looking for group name info
   on-list. Who's on the hook for that?
11:57 < ke4qqq> cool
11:57 < ke4qqq> we provided it in channel
11:57 < stickster> Oh sweet, I'm behind. That's always good.
11:58 < stickster> It means things are moving on well without me and I
   can, y'know, take a nap instead.
11:58 < ke4qqq> that's what fearless project leaders are supposed to
   do, no?
11:58 < stickster> That and eat peeled grapes, exactly.
11:58 < jjmcd> If you were napping then you wouldnt have anything to
   tweet about
11:58 -!- k0k [n=k0k fedora/k0k] has quit ["Saliendo"]
11:58 < stickster> At least, that's what I keep telling my wife.
11:59 < quaid> ok, we are about out of time
11:59 -!- mcepl
   [n=mcepl 49-117-207-85 strcechy adsl-llu static bluetone cz] has
      joined #fedora-meeting
11:59 < quaid> we'll do meeting time change on list
11:59 < quaid> the other guides ... well, how about discuss those on
   list, too
11:59 < quaid> anthing else in the waning minute?
11:59  * quaid moving so fast he's levng ltrs behnd
12:00 -!- balor [n=balor gimili plus com] has joined #fedora-meeting
12:00  * stickster +1
12:00  * stickster then moves to adjourn
12:00 < quaid> rock on
12:00  * quaid counts
12:00 < quaid> 5
12:00 < quaid> 4
12:00 < quaid> 3
12:00 < quaid> 2
12:00 < quaid> 1
12:00 < quaid> </meeting>

Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener

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