FDSCo Meeting 2009-02-18 IRC log
Eric Christensen
eric at christensenplace.us
Wed Feb 18 20:08:31 UTC 2009
Feb 18 14:00:30 <Sparks> <meeting id="Docs Project">
Feb 18 14:00:32 * Sparks has changed the topic to: Welcome to the Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings
Feb 18 14:00:39 <Sparks> Roll Call!
Feb 18 14:00:39 * Sparks is here
Feb 18 14:00:46 * ke4qqq is here
Feb 18 14:00:50 <kirkz> Kirkz is here
Feb 18 14:00:54 * quaid aqui tambien
Feb 18 14:00:55 * jjmcd too
Feb 18 14:01:32 <Sparks> Okay, welcome back to the party we call the Docs Project.
Feb 18 14:01:43 * stickster here, sort of
Feb 18 14:01:47 <kirkz> Yeah!!!!!!
Feb 18 14:02:06 <Sparks> And the first item up for bid is...
Feb 18 14:02:06 * laubersm is here
Feb 18 14:02:10 <Sparks> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FDSCo_meeting_matrix
Feb 18 14:02:10 * Sparks has changed the topic to: Docs Project - Meeting time change
Feb 18 14:02:38 <Sparks> So only seven people have completed the requisite homework.
Feb 18 14:03:02 <jjmcd> So does that mean the attendance will be <= 7 ?
Feb 18 14:03:10 <Sparks> And right now Thursday at 00:01 UTC is winning.
Feb 18 14:03:13 * laubersm thinks someone should have marked out the spots already taken in meeting channel
Feb 18 14:03:31 <Sparks> laubersm: We have LOTS of meeting spaces
Feb 18 14:03:32 <laubersm> sparks: thats wed night ET - right?
Feb 18 14:03:36 <ke4qqq> laubersm: ohhh good idea
Feb 18 14:03:53 <Sparks> laubersm: That would be 7PM Wednesday nights
Feb 18 14:03:56 <Sparks> eastern time
Feb 18 14:04:04 <ke4qqq> Sparks: but in -meeting gives a lot of visibility to what we are doing
Feb 18 14:04:20 * laubersm is still having to think too hard about UTC
Feb 18 14:04:30 * mdomsch (n=Matt_Dom at cpe-70-124-62-55.austin.res.rr.com) has joined #fedora-meeting
Feb 18 14:04:53 <Sparks> ke4qqq: Yeah and while I agree... we still need to think about good timing for us without having to cram every other group into our schedule, IMO.
Feb 18 14:04:59 <jjmcd> laubersm: Becom a ham or move to England
Feb 18 14:05:06 <laubersm> :)
Feb 18 14:05:08 <Sparks> ke4qqq: If we start using meeting-1 then more people will be ther
Feb 18 14:05:24 <ke4qqq> true
Feb 18 14:05:35 <Sparks> I wonder how many people even KNOW there is a meeting-1 (I'm guessing 9)
Feb 18 14:06:04 * laubersm does but ....
Feb 18 14:06:27 <kirkz> I don't know what meeting-1 is
Feb 18 14:06:49 <Sparks> kirkz: Have we assigned you a... mentor?
Feb 18 14:07:04 <kirkz> not yet
Feb 18 14:07:14 <kirkz> .been working with danielsmw
Feb 18 14:07:19 <Sparks> kirkz: Okay, lets talk after the meeting...
Feb 18 14:07:25 <kirkz> ok
Feb 18 14:07:43 <Sparks> So I guess my question is... who CANNOT meet Thursday at 00:01 UTC?
Feb 18 14:08:06 <kirkz> I
Feb 18 14:08:22 <kirkz> I'll probably be late, my daughter has piano
Feb 18 14:09:17 <Sparks> If we use that spot then we'll fall in between EPEL and LATAM.
Feb 18 14:09:59 <jjmcd> I notice ryanlerch is lacking from the list ... did anyone speak with him?
Feb 18 14:10:31 * Sparks notes that there are people here today that didn't say they were available now.
Feb 18 14:10:53 <Sparks> jjmcd: I don't know that I've discussed it with him directly but there have been emails to the list and such.
Feb 18 14:11:00 <Sparks> jjmcd: I'll make a point of doing so.
Feb 18 14:11:13 <jjmcd> This is a slightly troublesome time for me but obviously not insurmountable
Feb 18 14:11:20 * moixs has quit (Remote closed the connection)
Feb 18 14:11:47 <Sparks> Okay, so we don't get bogged down on this I'll beg for another week and then we will make the change next week.
Feb 18 14:12:04 <Sparks> So when you see the message hit the list hit reply to all and let's discuss it.
Feb 18 14:12:27 <laubersm> you might want to point out in the email the top options....
Feb 18 14:12:34 <Sparks> laubersm: +1
Feb 18 14:12:35 <laubersm> more likely to get protests than confirmations
Feb 18 14:12:42 <jjmcd> good point
Feb 18 14:13:12 <Sparks> Anything else?
Feb 18 14:13:33 * Sparks has changed the topic to: Docs Project - DocsProject wiki page changes
Feb 18 14:13:58 <Sparks> So I asked ianweller about this last night and apparently there hasn't been any (or much) progress on getting wikibot out of the garage.
Feb 18 14:14:34 <Sparks> quaid had a good point that we should probably just start over on the Docs Project pages which I'm not against. It is just more work but work we can do right the first time.
Feb 18 14:15:13 <jjmcd> What is the issue with the wikibot?
Feb 18 14:15:34 <Sparks> Not sure if it is a problem with only one person having the keys or if it is broken.
Feb 18 14:16:12 <laubersm> I think it a little of both but ian thinks he can fix the broken if he can get the code
Feb 18 14:16:32 <laubersm> at least that is what I last understood
Feb 18 14:16:36 * stickster was an early proponent of starting over, also, with the idea being to create process docs that are as slim and readable as possible
Feb 18 14:16:36 <Sparks> I'm personally leaning towards the "reinvent the wheel" at this point because a lot of the pages we have aren't useful and there needs to be a design change.
Feb 18 14:16:38 * itbegins (n=Simon at nat-studcudn-172-24-62-0.fitz.cam.ac.uk) has joined #fedora-meeting
Feb 18 14:16:58 <Sparks> Yeah, what stickster said
Feb 18 14:17:00 <laubersm> +1
Feb 18 14:17:12 <itbegins> Evening all, sorry I'm late
Feb 18 14:17:16 <ke4qqq> starting over makes a lot of sense - the people who know what is junk and what isn't in existing docs prolly don't have time to filter it.
Feb 18 14:17:24 <laubersm> Also, more groups are begining to rename and add categories and we need to be an example not left behind
Feb 18 14:17:26 <jjmcd> Someone on the mailing list mentioned doing a process diagram. Perhaps a current and desired diagram would be a good starting point
Feb 18 14:18:19 * jjmcd takes off his MBB hat
Feb 18 14:18:48 <laubersm> what is the status of the psv files that quaid started?
Feb 18 14:19:03 <laubersm> can they be used as a guideline of what to archive at least?
Feb 18 14:19:05 <Sparks> laubersm: I think it still exists.
Feb 18 14:19:17 <quaid> yes, they can
Feb 18 14:19:18 <Sparks> I think that file needs to be wikized so we can see it.
Feb 18 14:19:21 <ke4qqq> laubersm: you and I have worked on it - I haven't seen any other commits hit the commit list
Feb 18 14:19:46 <ke4qqq> Sparks: what's wrong with git clone?
Feb 18 14:19:56 <laubersm> they are all here
Feb 18 14:19:57 <laubersm> http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=wikirename.git;a=tree
Feb 18 14:20:05 * jsmith (n=nnnjsmit at asterisk/training-and-documentation-guru/jsmith) has joined #fedora-meeting
Feb 18 14:20:09 <quaid> -1 on wikifying, it's an easy file to work with
Feb 18 14:20:12 <Sparks> ke4qqq: too much overhead for a group to look at and make changes
Feb 18 14:20:46 <laubersm> I don't know that there are that many changes to make in the docs or docsproject ones...
Feb 18 14:20:49 <Sparks> Good grief, you guys are going to make me work today
Feb 18 14:21:08 <ke4qqq> if it's too much overhead for this group I'd be worried - we're talking hundreds of lines of text each - unwieldy at best.
Feb 18 14:21:12 <ke4qqq> :)
Feb 18 14:21:22 <laubersm> and quiad added category suggestions too
Feb 18 14:21:23 <ke4qqq> sorry - was it supposed to be bonbon day today?
Feb 18 14:22:12 <stickster> mmm bonbons
Feb 18 14:22:14 <Sparks> Good grief... I'm ready to shred what we have in the wiki and start over from dirt after looking at that list
Feb 18 14:22:31 * danielsmw_ipod (n=danielsm at user-24-214-179-165.knology.net) has joined #fedora-meeting
Feb 18 14:22:38 * danielsmw_ipod is now known as danielsmw
Feb 18 14:22:49 <laubersm> looks like docsproject is all the ugly stuff - docs is beats and drafts and hasn't had any work done
Feb 18 14:23:48 <ke4qqq> Sparks: another reason not to wikify, it'll further ruin search.
Feb 18 14:24:27 * alexxed has quit ("Leaving.")
Feb 18 14:24:29 <Sparks> Okay so what do we want to do? I guess we can tell wikibot to throw stuff in the archive: but we still are going to have to go through each page and clean it up
Feb 18 14:25:41 <Sparks> Okay, not everyone at once.
Feb 18 14:26:16 <Sparks> Who's available this weekend to work on wiki stuff?
Feb 18 14:26:25 <danielsmw> I am!
Feb 18 14:26:35 * jsmith can't, unfortunately
Feb 18 14:26:37 <laubersm> If we archive, rename the rest and add the categories it will be easier to go through what is left and clean up
Feb 18 14:26:49 <kirkz> I can help if I'd be useful
Feb 18 14:26:49 <laubersm> I vote for using the psv as a guide and manually getting it done this weekend
Feb 18 14:27:08 <laubersm> waiting on wikibot is driving me nuts
Feb 18 14:27:15 <quaid> yes, adding categories is key
Feb 18 14:27:18 <Sparks> Okay, let's get a party together starting Friday night and knock this stuff out.
Feb 18 14:27:24 <jjmcd> Do we have some confidence that the first column is comprehensive?
Feb 18 14:27:42 <Sparks> and when was that column generated?
Feb 18 14:27:44 <quaid> make sure all understand the naming guidelines :)
Feb 18 14:27:47 <ke4qqq> laubersm: even better: get the .psvs ready and then dole out sections of it - spread the love - that's accesibly to everyone
Feb 18 14:28:07 <quaid> e.g. "Titles like this", don't make all initial caps, etc.
Feb 18 14:28:08 <laubersm> ke4qqq : are you volunteering?
Feb 18 14:28:23 <Sparks> who wants to volunteer to head up this project or do we want to nominate ianweller?
Feb 18 14:28:31 * ke4qqq nominates ianweller
Feb 18 14:28:37 <ke4qqq> laubersm: I'll be happy to help
Feb 18 14:28:44 * laubersm thinks quaid should finish what he started
Feb 18 14:29:04 <quaid> oh, what's that?
Feb 18 14:29:07 * laubersm should have time to help this week
Feb 18 14:29:41 <jjmcd> Can't the renaming be done in SQL?
Feb 18 14:29:44 <laubersm> quaid: aren't you the one that put most of the suggestions into the psv file?
Feb 18 14:30:03 <laubersm> docsproject.psv history blaims you
Feb 18 14:30:12 <laubersm> blame
Feb 18 14:31:10 <Sparks> okay
Feb 18 14:31:23 <Sparks> I'll get with ianweller tonight and let's get this moving on Friday
Feb 18 14:31:40 * jsmith is now known as jsmith-away
Feb 18 14:31:48 <Sparks> Anything else?
Feb 18 14:32:18 * Sparks has changed the topic to: Docs Project - CMS Update
Feb 18 14:32:24 <Sparks> ke4qqq: Where are we now?
Feb 18 14:32:41 * SmootherFrOgZ (n=laxathom at 69.6.70-86.rev.gaoland.net) has joined #fedora-meeting
Feb 18 14:32:48 <ke4qqq> well - honestly not much additional progress since last week
Feb 18 14:32:54 * ke4qqq has been busy with $dayjob
Feb 18 14:32:55 <ke4qqq> but
Feb 18 14:33:15 <ke4qqq> jds2001, herlo and spot will be around to help get this pushed in this weekend.
Feb 18 14:33:36 <ke4qqq> and at least two of the above know that I plan on getting the modules and core completely packaged this weekend
Feb 18 14:33:49 <Sparks> excellent
Feb 18 14:33:59 * Sparks understands about $DAYJOB
Feb 18 14:34:13 <jjmcd> work is the curse of the drinking class
Feb 18 14:34:18 <Sparks> Does anyone have any questions about the CMS?
Feb 18 14:35:13 <quaid> laubersm: yeah, I take the blame for docsproject.psv
Feb 18 14:35:58 * Sparks has changed the topic to: Docs Project - Status on Release Notes
Feb 18 14:36:13 <Sparks> jjmcd: How's it going?
Feb 18 14:36:38 <jjmcd> some headway. Got a beat writer for haskell, ryan and i discussed some
Feb 18 14:36:55 <jjmcd> changes to the organization which Ryan incorporated into the DocBook
Feb 18 14:36:55 * quaid off the phone, sry
Feb 18 14:37:17 <jjmcd> I am about 60% through writing a recruiting post
Feb 18 14:37:35 <Sparks> Okay. Do you need anything from me? Are the release notes on schedule?
Feb 18 14:37:35 <jjmcd> In fact, will shortly be looking for a proofreader or two
Feb 18 14:37:46 <jjmcd> At this point I see no issue
Feb 18 14:37:56 <Sparks> Okay
Feb 18 14:38:16 <Sparks> Anyone have any questions?
Feb 18 14:38:36 * mcepl (n=mcepl at 49-117-207-85.strcechy.adsl-llu.static.bluetone.cz) has joined #fedora-meeting
Feb 18 14:38:45 <quaid> um
Feb 18 14:38:52 <quaid> there was the one thing on list about process
Feb 18 14:40:06 * Sparks hasn't had an opportunity to catch up on the list discussions
Feb 18 14:40:09 <quaid> ok
Feb 18 14:40:25 <quaid> the deal is, the process is unclear about how people are supposed to note things once Alpha is out
Feb 18 14:40:28 <quaid> update the Alpha?
Feb 18 14:40:36 <quaid> does that automagically fill the Beta?
Feb 18 14:40:41 <quaid> write in to beats?
Feb 18 14:40:46 <quaid> add it to common bugs?
Feb 18 14:40:47 <quaid> etc.
Feb 18 14:41:06 <quaid> so it seemed like a good time to fix those process notes and send the QA communities the word on what to do.
Feb 18 14:41:25 <quaid> writing a new process page is an option, based on the above renaming plans
Feb 18 14:41:55 <quaid> is that something ryanlerch and jjmcd can collaborate on soonish?
Feb 18 14:41:57 <quaid> eof
Feb 18 14:42:14 * mcepl (n=mcepl at 49-117-207-85.strcechy.adsl-llu.static.bluetone.cz) has left #fedora-meeting
Feb 18 14:42:20 <jjmcd> Making notes in the beats talk would give the writers a heads up and wouldn't make the developers feel like they have to wordcreft
Feb 18 14:42:31 <Sparks> Yeah, I think we should be looking at documenting the current process and then look at any way to improve that process.
Feb 18 14:42:33 * warren (n=warren at redhat/wombat/warren) has joined #fedora-meeting
Feb 18 14:42:33 <jjmcd> wordcraft
Feb 18 14:43:54 <quaid> I liked the other spelling, tho'
Feb 18 14:43:55 * jjmcd will try to sync with RL
Feb 18 14:44:24 <quaid> I know there are holes in y'all's understanding of the way things have been done, but a good first exercise
Feb 18 14:44:38 <quaid> might be to just try to do it all from what you know, then let the old fogies make suggestions
Feb 18 14:45:16 <jjmcd> Yeah, might not be a bad plan ... will need lots of pictures tho ... /me thinks better in pictures <g>
Feb 18 14:45:20 * Sparks wonders if we have a wiki page that identifies old fogies
Feb 18 14:45:36 <jjmcd> Plus the whole Six Sigma thing about making things visual/transparent
Feb 18 14:46:02 <jjmcd> Prolly not too hard to recognize the gray haired types
Feb 18 14:46:20 <laubersm> Sparks: this one does: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee
Feb 18 14:47:09 <quaid> laubersm: nice!
Feb 18 14:47:26 <ke4qqq> heh
Feb 18 14:47:29 <quaid> Sparks: OT, but +1 to s/FDSCo/Docs Team/g
Feb 18 14:47:50 <Sparks> quaid: Yeah, that's a definite need
Feb 18 14:47:57 <Sparks> Okay.
Feb 18 14:48:47 <Sparks> I wanted to talk with the release notes folks last weekend and unfortunately that didn't happen. Let's make that happen this week so we can exchange ideas in a less async environment.
Feb 18 14:48:52 <Sparks> Anything else on this?
Feb 18 14:49:02 * quaid done
Feb 18 14:49:18 <Sparks> danielsmw: Did you want to talk about your guide?
Feb 18 14:49:43 * Sparks has changed the topic to: Docs Project - Status on User Guide
Feb 18 14:49:56 <danielsmw> yeah
Feb 18 14:49:58 <danielsmw> just a bit
Feb 18 14:50:02 <Sparks> go for it
Feb 18 14:50:14 <danielsmw> I think I said most of what I wanted to say in that email, but in case anyone didn't see it:
Feb 18 14:50:16 <Sparks> you'll wrap us up for the day
Feb 18 14:50:18 * quaid +1 overall for danielsmw's on-list proposal of priorities
Feb 18 14:50:31 <danielsmw> 1) Priorities for FAD
Feb 18 14:50:59 <danielsmw> I think that there isn't a huge stress on content priority, but I suggest that we work on pages like accessing the internet and installing software before the others
Feb 18 14:51:05 <danielsmw> since these are more fundamental
Feb 18 14:51:20 <danielsmw> quaid: thanks
Feb 18 14:51:29 <danielsmw> 2) Organizing for maintainability
Feb 18 14:51:57 <danielsmw> I'd like to examine what tasks can be generalized without losing ease of understanding for a new user
Feb 18 14:52:17 <danielsmw> and then generalize these tasks, making it more maintainable and giving us time to polish other things/add content
Feb 18 14:52:24 <danielsmw> like... (this wasn't on the list)
Feb 18 14:52:27 <danielsmw> 3) Advanced Sections
Feb 18 14:52:55 <quaid> danielsmw: only thing I wanted to discuss was how we wanted to handle F9 and F10 content on the wiki concurrently
Feb 18 14:52:56 <danielsmw> I think that while the user guide can be a newbie-friendly thing for the docs team, it doesn't need to leave out slightly more advanced users
Feb 18 14:53:22 <quaid> but 2) reminds me we want to discuss a common 'sudo' doc again v. su -c '' everywhere
Feb 18 14:53:27 <danielsmw> There are plenty of things that can be written for the more advanced user - setting up irssi, for example -
Feb 18 14:53:39 <danielsmw> That we can put in there. We just need to denote that it's for advanced users
Feb 18 14:53:58 <danielsmw> quaid: go ahead, if you want to discuss that
Feb 18 14:54:01 <danielsmw> I'm done, I think
Feb 18 14:54:10 <laubersm> where should I be updating with F10 info?
Feb 18 14:54:15 * laubersm may have missed that
Feb 18 14:54:22 <danielsmw> Oh, right
Feb 18 14:54:25 <danielsmw> I suppose
Feb 18 14:54:28 <laubersm> or putting new F10 pages?
Feb 18 14:54:30 <danielsmw> That's a worthy thing to address
Feb 18 14:54:49 <danielsmw> For the little F10 editing that's been done, we've done it in our userspace
Feb 18 14:54:53 <danielsmw> but we need a better place very soon
Feb 18 14:55:00 <quaid> I'd rather settle that now, fwiw :)
Feb 18 14:55:08 <laubersm> wiki or XML (git)?
Feb 18 14:55:10 <danielsmw> Agreed
Feb 18 14:55:10 <quaid> we could do what we did for F8 with the F9 content
Feb 18 14:55:26 <quaid> but then we want to move it to Archive: when it's converted or we risk confusing ppl
Feb 18 14:55:35 <danielsmw> Well, what if we just set aside the mediawiki source
Feb 18 14:55:37 <danielsmw> for conversion to xml
Feb 18 14:55:43 <danielsmw> at a later date?
Feb 18 14:55:52 <quaid> ah, then finish F9 via XML?
Feb 18 14:55:57 <quaid> we could do the raw conversion in a few minutes
Feb 18 14:56:01 <quaid> and check it in to git for fixing later.
Feb 18 14:56:07 <danielsmw> Right. I mean, the only stuff left is KDE
Feb 18 14:56:12 <quaid> call it branched-to-XML at that point.
Feb 18 14:56:13 <danielsmw> (i still need to go to fedora-kde)
Feb 18 14:56:25 <quaid> hmm, yeah, and that could be written anywhere and exported later, it's true
Feb 18 14:56:36 * quaid ponders ... that would save needless renaming, etc.
Feb 18 14:56:45 * danielsmw concurs
Feb 18 14:56:50 <quaid> danielsmw: m'man, I like that!
Feb 18 14:57:00 <Sparks> THREE MINUTE WARNING
Feb 18 14:57:11 <quaid> then if I get more time I can also help with the XML conversion as it sits in git
Feb 18 14:57:23 * jjmcd notes that Sparks checked WWV
Feb 18 14:57:24 <danielsmw> quaid: that'd be great, because I need to learn that
Feb 18 14:57:30 <quaid> that will move F9 UG significantly, and give us room to move on F10
Feb 18 14:57:41 <danielsmw> yup yup.
Feb 18 14:57:44 <danielsmw> Sounds like a plan then.
Feb 18 14:57:52 <quaid> danielsmw: cool, nothing like watching and doing in real time to learn; you'll see from the git commits what I change, etc.
Feb 18 14:57:56 <quaid> right o
Feb 18 14:57:58 <Sparks> jjmcd: Every new raday
Feb 18 14:58:22 <danielsmw> any comments on the aforementioned advanced sections before I let sparks take away the meeting?
Feb 18 14:58:57 <danielsmw> It's something I thought of when kirkz started doing the clawsmail stuff
Feb 18 14:59:00 <laubersm> I have no problems with some more advanced content - but lets get the current topics moving first?
Feb 18 14:59:06 <danielsmw> oh, agreed.,
Feb 18 14:59:12 <danielsmw> that would all be secondary.
Feb 18 14:59:19 <danielsmw> okay, well, that's all from me.
Feb 18 14:59:27 <laubersm> great - add them to a list and I'll help a little bit
Feb 18 14:59:30 <Sparks> Anything else???
Feb 18 14:59:37 <quaid> </>
Feb 18 14:59:46 * danielsmw thinks Sparks is pretty violent with his capitalization and punctuation
Feb 18 14:59:50 <Sparks> 5
Feb 18 14:59:51 <Sparks> 4
Feb 18 14:59:53 <Sparks> 3
Feb 18 14:59:53 * MostafaDaneshvar (n=MostafaD at unaffiliated/mostafadaneshvar) has joined #fedora-meeting
Feb 18 14:59:54 <Sparks> 2
Feb 18 14:59:56 <Sparks> 1
Feb 18 15:00:00 <Sparks> Thanks everyone for coming!
Feb 18 15:00:00 <Sparks> </meeting>
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