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FDSCo Meeting 2008-01-28 IRC log



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14:00 < Sparks> <meeting id="Docs team">
14:00 -!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Meeting
14:00  * stickster here
14:00  * quaid is 50% here as [[User:Kwade|Karsten 'quaid' Wade]]
14:00  * jjmcd here
14:00  * Sparks here
14:00  * ke4qqq is here
14:01 < Sparks> Meeting agenda:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Wednesday.2C_28_January_2008
14:01 -!- zk-Simon [n=public nat-studcudn-172-24-62-0 fitz cam ac uk]
has joined #fedora-meeting
14:01  * laubersm here
14:02 -!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Meeting -
Status on leadership (re)fresh
14:02 < Sparks> Okay, I'm going to turn this over to quaid before he has
to leave
14:02 -!- DemonJester [n=DemonJes fedora/DemonJester] has quit [Read
error: 113 (No route to host)]
14:02 < quaid> yeah, I'm in a meeting call right now
14:02 < quaid> and have 1/2 attention
14:02 -!- jsmith-lunch
[n=nnnjsmit asterisk/training-and-documentation-guru/jsmith] has joined
#fedora-meeting
14:02 < quaid> so will be fast as I can
14:02 < quaid> first, thanks Sparks for taking the meeting today.
14:02 -!- jsmith-lunch is now known as jsmith
14:03 -!- kulll_ [n=kulll 203 82 91 34] has quit [Read error: 60
(Operation timed out)]
14:03 < quaid> second, it's clear on the list to me that we can reach
consensus on leadership stuff with a scheme I have in mind.
14:03 < quaid> 1. I'd like to appoint Sparks to be Docs Lead for the
(rest of) F11; his willingness and coordinating/organizing are clear all
ready, and he
               is interested and able.
14:04 < quaid> 2. We can then have an election just after F11, including
deciding how long we want a leader to server (one or two releases)
14:04 < quaid> 3. There are a *ton* of you who are already leaders here
and could clearly or likely lead this project; that is rather unusual,
and awe
               inspiring to me.
14:05 < quaid> in fact, more current contributors are capable of leading
this team for a release than not, which is cool.
14:05 < quaid> 4. Then I can be a good Lt., help the transition, and
help with making future leadership easier, as well as future
contributing (hand-in-hand
               problem)
14:05 < quaid> so, even if I haven't talked with you about being in the
smaller group of those who actively lead ...
14:06 < quaid> I will :)
14:06 < jsmith> +1 on the nomination
14:06 < quaid> and I'll encourage each of you to continue in that mode
- -- show while doing
14:06 < Sparks> +1 on term limits :)
14:06 < quaid> :D
14:06 < stickster> +1 on the nomination
14:06  * laubersm tags Sparks
14:06 < jjmcd> +1
14:06 < ke4qqq> +1 for sparks
14:07 -!- John5342 [n=john5342 fedora/John5342] has joined #fedora-meeting
14:07  * stickster will be around to be a Lt. Lt. too
14:07 < quaid> I'd also especially like to ask you all to really step up
in helping make Sparks successful
14:07 < stickster> +2.
14:07 < quaid> (not that you aren't ...)
14:07 < quaid> which means e.g. more 6s fun from jjmcd and jsmith  :)
14:07 -!- baard1973 [n=baard197 143 121 192 249] has quit ["Leaving"]
14:07 < Sparks> :)
14:07 < jjmcd> :-)
14:07 < quaid> in case it's not obvious, it's the mix of skills,
personality, and hard work ethics that makes the team work best.
14:08 < quaid> and this is truly the strongest group of docs
contributors that Fedora has yet seen, IMNSHO.
14:08 < quaid> one remaining item is the F11 release notes; I'm
concerned about overloading Sparks
14:08 < quaid> and would suggest we consider taking ryanlerch up on his
offer;
14:08  * jsmith puts away his (non-existant) campaign posters and
buckles down for a great release (and release-notes!) for F11
14:08 < quaid> he just got off a big relnotes release and is ready to go
and available, afaict
14:09 < Sparks> +1 to ryanlerch
14:09 < quaid> that would help e.g. jjmcd get more comfortable with how
the relnotes run, so he can do it for F12
14:09 < ke4qqq> +1
14:09 < jsmith> +1 to ryanlerch as well
14:09 < jsmith> +1 to jjmcd being his shadow
14:09 < jjmcd> Sounds good to me
14:09 < laubersm> +1
14:10 < quaid> nice!
14:10  * quaid loves the smell of consensus in the morning ...
14:10 < quaid> it's the smell of community!
14:10 < jsmith> quaid: (You're on a roll... no disagreement from anyone!)
14:10 < stickster> I think the Relnotes definitely need a separate
Someone. +1.
14:10 < quaid> are there any lagging leadership issues?
14:10 < jjmcd> I notice ryanlerch isn't here to defend himself
14:10 < quaid> I'll do a formal email to the list after the meeting, etc.
14:10 < quaid> jjmcd: heh
14:10 < ke4qqq> someone bring up the controversial stuff before we slip
out of consensus :)
14:10 < quaid> jjmcd: I sent him email asking him to come by
#fedora-docs this afternoon to discuss
14:10 < quaid> after I sort-of blew him off on list trying to keep the
balance.
14:11 < Sparks> Anymore discussion?
14:11 < quaid> ok, I'm done then; and would love to see everyone figure
out the CMS discussion _without_ having to explain my own thinking
again; that's
               getting boring to y'all
14:12  * jjmcd is beginning to develop an opinion on that, that's dangerous
14:12  * zk-Simon is here in case of questions
14:12 < Sparks> Okay, well, thanks for the support and as my first order
of business...
14:12 -!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Meeting -
CMS Plan
14:12 < Sparks> I'll change the topic.
14:12 < stickster> heh
14:12 < stickster> +1! The crowd goes wild!
14:12 -!- ldimaggi_ [n=ldimaggi c-76-19-171-76 hsd1 ma comcast net] has
quit ["Leaving"]
14:13 < Sparks> So today has been an interesting day for CMS discussions.
14:13 -!- ldimaggi_ [n=ldimaggi c-76-19-171-76 hsd1 ma comcast net] has
joined #fedora-meeting
14:13 < Sparks> Was anyone not around #f-docs for the conversation?
14:13  * jjmcd caught much of it, think I came in the middle, but I
figured out hwere it eas headed
14:14 < stickster> It was full of vim and vinegar
14:14  * laubersm thinks "which one?" and runs
14:14 < stickster> Especially since I know jsmith likes vim.
14:14 < jjmcd> ewwwww
14:14 < Sparks> jsmith: I'd like to get your input about the CMS
solution discussion, please.
14:14 < stickster> No one is full of Emacs and vinegar, after all.
14:14 < jsmith> stickster: Amen!
14:14 < quaid> stickster: only a pickle
14:14 < stickster> quaid: Oho! You win, good sirrah.
14:15 < jsmith> Sparks: I'm on the phone right this second, but I'm now
in general agreement with the proposals at hand.
14:15 -!- DemonJes1er [n=DemonJes mod001-notes1 modpac com] has quit
[Connection timed out]
14:15 < Sparks> Okay, does anyone have any concerns about standing up a
CMS solution?
14:15 < ke4qqq> so at the risk of pushing ahead - I think we should go
with Zikula - they are the only planA solution
14:16 < ke4qqq> and they seem to meet the requirements technically
14:16 < Sparks> ke4qqq: I know Word Press was interviewed.  I haven't
felt much energy from them, though.
14:16 < jjmcd> We got something that seems to meet the reqts and someone
willing to chop off the chicken's head, so where's the problem
14:16 < ke4qqq> and I think if we decide to press ahead that I am the
constraint
14:16 < ke4qqq> jjmcd: exactly!
14:16 < stickster> Has anyone asked the responsible parties for Legal,
PackagingGuidelines, etc. about their thoughts? Not sure that's a
requirement.
14:16 < zk-Simon> If anyone has reservations, I would like to hear them.
 Either to put them straight or alternatively to make sure I put
specific focus on
                  their concerns as we move forward
14:16 < Sparks> stickster: Good point.
14:17 < quaid> their requirement was to not have to work *harder*
14:17 < quaid> and spot said he trusted us to not mess them up, iirc
14:17 < Sparks> How about this, let's vote on Zikula pending no major
problems from the other areas.
14:17 < quaid> zikula++
14:17 < stickster> Which I think we can guarantee. Zikula has editing
capabilities on par with MW>
14:17 < ke4qqq> yep
14:18 < ke4qqq> +1 for zikula
14:18 < laubersm> +1 for taking the next step
14:18 < Sparks> +1 for Zikula
14:18 < jjmcd> +
14:19 < stickster> +1
14:19 < zk-Simon> Ok, well that seems positive
14:19 < Sparks> That sounds like a pass to me.
14:19 < zk-Simon> Next step?  What do you want from me?
14:20 < Sparks> I'll write it up this afternoon and make sure we have
the support from others.
14:20 < ke4qqq> next step is packaging iirc, and I think that is still
on my plate
14:20 -!- itamarjp
[n=itamar 189-015-176-126 xd-dynamic ctbcnetsuper com br] has quit
[Remote closed the connection]
14:20 < Sparks> zk-Simon: If you don't mind being on hand today and
tomorrow for any questions from other groups.
14:20  * ke4qqq is fail for not already having it done
14:20 < zk-Simon> It just so happens we have a RPM build for Zikula as
of a couple of days ago
14:20 < Sparks> Yes, packaging is high priority
14:20 < ke4qqq> zk-Simon: Link?
14:20 < jjmcd> Ohhh, that was my only concern, would be nice to see it
packaged
14:20 -!- SmootherFrOgZ [n=Xavier fedora/SmootherFrOgZ] has joined
#fedora-meeting
14:21 < ke4qqq> yeah for us to use it, it must live in fedora
14:21 < quaid> we should be able to start playing on the publictest
instance even without the package
14:21 < zk-Simon> Sparks: No link, I'd ahve to upload it somewhere (in
my email inbox I think)
14:21 -!- mizmo [n=duffy c-66-31-44-241 hsd1 ma comcast net] has joined
#fedora-meeting
14:21 < Sparks> zk-Simon: Get with ke4qqq on that.
14:21 -!- itamarjp
[n=itamar 189-015-176-126 xd-dynamic ctbcnetsuper com br] has joined
#fedora-meeting
14:21 < quaid> so for zk-Simon that means applying for sysadmin and
sysadmin-test with anyone from zikula.org who is helping
14:21 < ke4qqq> zk-Simon: SRPM and spec file please - feel free to send
it to the list or me privately
14:21 < quaid> zk-Simon: those are FAS groups
14:22 < quaid> mmcgrath can tell us if he wants to make a new
sysadmin-cms ...
14:22 < Sparks> ke4qqq: Can you help zk-Simon with getting FAS accounts
squared away?
14:22 < zk-Simon> ok.  Have to hold my hand a little here since I don't
know your processess
14:22 < ke4qqq> Sparks: yep - we'll take care of it after the meeting
14:22 < Sparks> ke4qqq: Thank you
14:22 < ke4qqq> np
14:23 < Sparks> Anything else on the CMS?
14:23 < zk-Simon> I'll be around for as long as necessary tomorrow, but
I'm out for a couple of hours at least from the end of the meeting
14:23 -!- danielsmw [n=danielsm user-24-214-179-165 knology net] has
joined #fedora-meeting
14:24  * stickster is happy to see such verve and vigor in the Docs
meeting again :-)
14:24 < ke4qqq> zk-Simon: ok - I am around quite a bit, just ping me
when you have some time
14:24 -!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Meeting -
Status on Release Notes document
14:25 < Sparks> I know we are going to have to do some switching around
on this...
14:25 < Sparks> I know we need beat writers for various subjects.
14:26 < Sparks> Does anyone have any questions on this?  I should be
better prepared next week.
14:26 < ke4qqq> do we have a list of what beats have no writers?
14:26 < Sparks> ke4qqq: Yes...
14:26  * Sparks goes hunting for the link
14:26 < Sparks> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Documentation_Beats
14:27 < Sparks> All 48 of them (plus or minus)
14:27 < Sparks> The page still needs some cleaning up.
14:27 < Sparks> I sent out an email to everyone that was listed from
F10.  If they were continueing on then they removed the "*" from beside
their name.
14:27 < ke4qqq> so - can we delegate that out 'beat writer hunting' now?
14:28 < Sparks> But there are a lot of open spots that could use some love
14:28 < Sparks> ke4qqq: sure
14:28 < stickster> Makes sense to move on to finding new writers.
14:28 < Sparks> stickster: :1
14:28 < Sparks> +1
14:28 < Sparks> Yeah, we are WAY behind on this.
14:29 < stickster> It's not that bad, I don't think
14:29 < stickster> But it wouldn't hurt to start contacting people
responsible for packages that are central to the beat
14:29 < Sparks> We have had quite a few people sign up for slots in the
past week which is really good.
14:29 < stickster> i.e. fedora-kernel-list, or the virt list, or...
14:29 < stickster> Typically those developers do start devoting more
time post-Beta
14:29 < Sparks> stickster: Absolutely.
14:30 < stickster> But it's incumbent upon us to... keep them from
forgetting ;-)
14:30 < jjmcd> Some of the major devtools came up as new beats.  Not
sure that e.g. Emacs needs its own beat, but most of those I expect to do
14:30 < stickster> jjmcd: They're coming up as new beats because they're
transcluded pages
14:31 < jjmcd> ahhh yeah, you mentioned how you like that
14:31  * stickster loathes transcludes in the relnotes beats... headaches!
14:31 < Sparks> yeah
14:31 < stickster> I think it would be sensible to provide a key for
people to know where to file their notes on "Package XYZ"
14:31 < jjmcd> Some may make sense, tho.  The Haskell group seems pretty
active, actually, might be good to recruit someone there
14:31 < stickster> Then kill the transcludes
14:32 < quaid> +1 to death of transcludes
14:32 < Sparks> +1
14:32 < quaid> they aren't needed
14:32 < stickster> Every time we try to be clever, we generally
out-clever ourselves :-D
14:32 < quaid> you said it!
14:33 < danielsmw> lol
14:33 < stickster> If Ian had been around he'd have slapped sense into us
14:33 < Sparks> Well, he can now
14:33 < ke4qqq> I think he actually prefers setting people on fire :)
14:33 < quaid> with a sharp fork to the eyes first
14:33 < Sparks> jjmcd: Do you want to start beating the drum on the...
beats?
14:34 < jjmcd> Sure 'nuff
14:34 -!- cassmodiah [n=cass fedora/cassmodiah] has joined #fedora-meeting
14:34 < Sparks> jjmcd: Okay, let me know if you need anything.
Targetting the groups that aren't represented would be great.
14:34 < Sparks> jjmcd: And maybe something up on planet.
14:34 -!- petreu [n=peter fedora/petreu] has quit ["( www.nnscript.de ::
NoNameScript 4.02 :: www.XLhost.de )"]
14:34  * jjmcd gotta get hooked up there yet
14:35 < Sparks> jjmcd: I can put something up there in the mean time.  :)
14:35 < jjmcd> cool
14:35 < Sparks> Anything else?
14:35 < ke4qqq> jjmcd: lets work on that after the meeting
14:36 < ke4qqq> I owe work for that to danielsmw as well
14:36 < jjmcd> roger that
14:37 -!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Meeting -
DocsProject page changes
14:37 < Sparks> ianweller is working with G_work to get the wikibot
turned loose on the Docs Pages.
14:37 < danielsmw> ke4qqq: I'll join in after this then
14:37 < stickster> sweet
14:38 < Sparks> Apparently there are some problems with the bot so
G_work is working on that.
14:38 < Sparks> I'll let ianweller talk about it later.
14:38 -!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Project -
John Poelstra's schedule
14:39 < Sparks> ke4qqq: What'd did you come up with from the conference
call?
14:40 < ke4qqq> so releng is going to handle alpha announcement
14:40 < ke4qqq> and keep it
14:40 < ke4qqq> 'permanently'
14:40 < ke4qqq> we are taking Beta and GA release announcements
14:40 < quaid> sweet
14:41 < Sparks> ke4qqq: That works.
14:41 < Sparks> Did everyone get a chance to look at the schedule that
John sent out?
14:41 < ke4qqq> essentially eof from me - I have more details from the
call - but none that relate to docs project.
14:42 -!- petreu [n=peter fedora/petreu] has joined #fedora-meeting
14:42 < stickster> ke4qqq: Probably worth sending something to the
f-docs-list to memorialize
14:42 < Sparks> +1
14:42 < jjmcd> look at, yes; digest, no
14:42 < Sparks> jjmcd: Yeah
14:42 < stickster> I'll take the action item to get Poelstra to add the
appropriate actions to the docs tasks list
14:42 < Sparks> stickster: Thank you
14:42  * jsmith stumbles back from a phone conference
14:43 < laubersm> what jjmcd said
14:43 < jsmith> (Silly $dayjob... gotta get Fedora or Red Hat to hire me)
14:43 < ke4qqq> lol
14:43 < Sparks> jsmith: Yeah, me too.
14:43 < jjmcd> That whole working for a living thing really sucks,doesn't it
14:43 < Sparks> Okay, lets take the week to digest what needs to be done
and come back to it next week
14:44 < jsmith> jjmcd: I don't mind working... it's the politics that
grate on my nerves
14:44  * jjmcd remembers that, but bing a full-time bum is a much
sweeter gig
14:44 -!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Meeting -
Go over task table

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Task_table
14:44  * quaid done with his meeting
14:44 < quaid> that table is a bit out of date, sorry :)
14:44 < laubersm> I was noticing that :)
14:45 < Sparks> It looks like we need to garden our table!
14:45 < quaid> heh
14:46 < quaid> I can edit and make changes while we discuss the updates,
if you'd like
14:46 < quaid> (if you aren't already someone)
14:46 < jjmcd> seems like we have a bunch of projects that need to be
transcluded in that list
14:46 < quaid> items missing from there?  yes
14:48  * quaid edits the page now
14:48 -!- lfoppiano [n=lfoppian fedora/lfoppiano] has joined #fedora-meeting
14:49 < stickster> Yay table gardening :-)
14:49 < jjmcd> Looks like some things are dealt with, some need more
detail.  e.g. now that we have a CMS strategy we need to lay out the steps.
14:49 < quaid> for the first item, we are waiting on page renaming, right?
14:49 < stickster> more or less, I suppose.
14:50 < quaid> how do we feel about our toolchain now?
14:50 < quaid> is that still an open task?
14:50 -!- fab__ [n=bellet bellet info] has joined #fedora-meeting
14:51 < jjmcd> I suspect it will evolve post-CMS, wonder whether we
should stress over it before
14:51 < ke4qqq> I thought our focus was to move to publican?
14:51 < quaid> s
14:51 < ke4qqq> independent of any cms
14:51 < quaid> yes
14:51 < jjmcd> I assume so
14:51 < quaid> but fedora-doc-utils still has some purpose, etc.
14:52 < quaid> how about jsmith, stickster, and I discuss next chance on
IRC to see where that is and what needs to be done?
14:52 < jjmcd> But what is the point of CMS if it doesn't help our
processes?  Not sure we know exactly HOW yet
14:52 < quaid> this toolchain stuff is primarily the work that happens
just before the CMS pulls the content in.
14:52 < quaid> but it's possible there will be stuff to *add* to the
toolchain as part of the CMS work.
14:53 < jjmcd> Yes, I gather that.  I suspect, tho, some things will
want to change
14:53 < jjmcd> Yeah, maybe add, maybe subtract
14:53 < quaid> ok, I marked it as ongoing
14:53 < quaid> and that the three principals for that task will talk and
decide what up
14:54 < jsmith> Sounds like a plan
14:54 < quaid> publican migration ... next chance I might work on that
during FAD at SCaLE 7x?
14:54 < quaid> there is a branch for migrating the IG
14:54 < stickster> I think the f-d-u is a pet project only at this
point, so yeah, we'll discuss that offline
14:54 < quaid> jsmith: have you looked at that?
14:54 < stickster> ("offline" == "not here, probably online")
14:54 < jsmith> quaid: Got started at FudCON, then ran into problems,
haven't picked it back up yet
14:55 < jsmith> quaid: May have some time next week, while I'm playing
'Booth Babe' at a conference in Miami
14:55 < stickster> jsmith: Apparently ryanlerch did a migration of our
release notes that he claims was fairly painles
14:55 < stickster> *painless, even
14:55 < stickster> I asked him to locate and augment our guidance for
doing that procedure on the wiki
14:55 < ke4qqq> stickster: did he document the process?
14:55 < jsmith> stickster: That's great to hear!
14:55 < stickster> ke4qqq: q.v. ^^
14:56 < quaid> ok, next item
14:56 < quaid> team per document is completed.
14:56 < quaid> right?
14:56 < ke4qqq> well at least lead
14:57 < jjmcd> For some, like RL, recruiting the team will be an ongoing
thing, and for all probably some need
14:57 < quaid> ok, lead writer id'd still working on team
14:57 < quaid> jjmcd: yep, I just put 'ongoing' as deadline :)
14:58 -!- zoglesby [n=zoglesby fsf/member/zoglesby] has joined
#fedora-meeting
14:58 < quaid> ok I'll put the CMS status under that task
14:58 -!- CheekyBoinc [n=CheekyBo fedora/CheekyBoinc] has quit [Remote
closed the connection]
14:59 < Sparks> 1 minute warning
14:59 < quaid> the future of fedora docs stuff is resolved; that was all
about 'get a leader who isn't stale in the head'
14:59 < quaid> the rest is fine
14:59 < stickster> The biggest issue before the group has been cleared,
that's a good meeting in my bookk.
14:59  * quaid thinks that is the task list done
14:59 < stickster> Sparks: We're here for you, and know you'll do a good
job.
14:59 < quaid> stickster: heck, we touched upon everything to boot!
14:59 < Sparks> :)
14:59 < Sparks> stickster: thanks.
15:00 < Sparks> Anyone have anything else?
15:00 < quaid> let's call it :0
15:00 < Sparks> 5
15:00 < laubersm> Thanks Sparks!!!!
15:00 < Sparks> 4
15:00 < Sparks> 3
15:00 < Sparks> 2
15:00 < Sparks> 1
15:00 < Sparks> Thanks folks!
15:00 < jjmcd> And the crowd roars
15:00 < Sparks> </meeting>
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