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Meeting IRC log 23 August 2005



<quaid> <meeting>
<quaid> most of this first one is me
<quaid> first is the commit log scraper, Sopwith has agreed to develop
this tool
<quaid> refresher:
<quaid> this grabs CVS commit logs that have a keyword in them, and
sends an email to relnotes fedoraproject org
<quaid> we can then sort them into relnotes beats or elsewhere (IG for
example)
<quaid> one thing we need is, what keyword to use?
<quaid> we can start the developers doing this now, I think
>sopwith< got a few minutes?  or in a meeting, like me?  fdsco is on
#fedora-docs
--- sopwith :No such nick/channel
<megacoder> [scraper]
<tcf> relnotes is an easy keyword and fast to type
<elliss> [notethis]
<megacoder> Use some punctuation around whatever is chosen
<quaid> something that shows it's special, so you can say 'relnotes'
without triggering it
<quaid> yeah, that :)
<tcf> [relnotes]
<quaid> will that make people think, "this isn't good for the release
notes," and not mark it?
<quaid> i.e., does the keyword limit the scope, even apparently?
<stickster> [docnotes]?
<quaid> [docme]
<stickster> yeah baby!
<elliss> ding
<quaid> ok
<megacoder> bueno
<quaid> ok, I'll find out when we can announce this usage, soonest is
bestest
<quaid> we want a good process going for FC6 :)
<quaid> any other thoughts on this?
<stickster> none here
<quaid> let's roll on
<quaid> to the evil Wiki word (j/k)
<quaid> you may have noticed that I am not warming up to Wiki, but have
accepted some inevitability
<quaid> stickster: I'm opening the door for your opinion here
<mether> quaid, can people other you get a copy of the mails being send
to relnotes fedoraproject org?
<stickster> We want low barrier to entry... but the primary goal has to
be *authoritative* documentation
--> G2 (n=ghenry mail suretecsystems com) has joined #fedora-docs
<mether> and what do people think about having a release notes mailing
list?
<stickster> mether: Yes, just tag your bugzilla account to track that
email
<stickster> I think another list is overkill
<mether> ya it does sound like a overkill to me even
<stickster> So back to wiki
<quaid> mether: yeah, just have your bugzilla account watch that
account, that's how we do it
<mether> cool. thanks for the info
<mether> move on to the next topic
<stickster> Documentation is sensitive because it's very easy for bad
docs to end up floating in the googlemind/internet memory
<stickster> Such as people reading a bad cache instead of the updated
good doc
<quaid> that's always true, yes
<mether> bad or outdated ones
<G2> Sorry I am late.
<quaid> s'ok
<quaid> we're on the second item, Wiki and DocBook
<G2> Ok. You were all late yesterday ;-)
<quaid> stickster: do you accept that we need to open up to all editing
styles?
<quaid> can we make do by just having editors watch wiki changes?
<stickster> If we have to use a Wiki, I would like to see the Wiki used
for drafting, and at publication time the doc leaves that forum and goes
to an authoritative place
<stickster> I know everything is migrating to fedoraproject.org and away
from fedora.redhat.com
<stickster> Nevertheless.
<stickster> ..
<quaid> that's just a URL
<stickster> Right, my point is that there needs to be a NON-wikiable
place so that docs can not be goofed up after the drafting and editing
is done
<quaid> stickster: you saw the cogent arguments Deb Richardson made
<stickster> Yeah, more participants makes more docs, for one
<stickster> Maybe I'm holding out...
<quaid> and she takes advantage of the many editors fixing those
problems in real time
<quaid> if we have a forced workflow, we lose that immediacy
<quaid> and gain in quality
<quaid> first we need to figure out where we want that balance
<stickster> Look at our subproject goal: "Produce *high quality*
documentation"
<quaid> I think it -has- to move away from where we've been, and somehow
not compromise quality.
<quaid> what if ...
<quaid> we create the Docs Rawhide
<quaid> and it's two things:
<quaid> 1) raw CVS builds of what is in CVS
<quaid> 2) raw Wiki that hasn't been blessed or promoted
<quaid> we mark it all as such, make it as obvious as we can that it's
draft or unperfected
<G2> With a big disclaimer
<elliss> Question
<stickster> If it's on fp.org, does it not achieve a certain aura of
authority? What happens when someone does a drive-by "throw over the
wall" of a document that just sucks?
<megacoder> Opinion disclaimer: nobody reads disclaimers.
<quaid> hey, megacoder hasn't said anything in a while
<quaid> is he still here ?
<stickster> megacoder: Precisely the problem
<quaid> elliss: go
<mether> the critical docs need to be controlled by acl's and watched by
key people who care about quality
<quaid> that's what promoted docs are
<quaid> so we can keep them in the Wiki
<elliss> Have you considered a restricted Wiki setup
<quaid> we have one big DocEditors group
<quaid> elliss: yes, exactly
<elliss> mether was looking at a knowledge base system ?
<mether> i can imagine people messing up forbiddenitems page to spread
out misinformation badly
<mether> elliss, a preview is available from fedorausers.org with a
implementation that i didnt recommend
<mether> elliss, site is not launched yet
<quaid> we can have an ACL group anytime, I'll get spot to set up one
<elliss> mether: Is that an official Fedora site ?
<mether> elliss, its supposed to be having a list of things that are not
really FAQ but important enough 
<mether> elliss, no. its not
<mether> elliss, but no point in competing with that effort now
<quaid> elliss: but it's supposed to be OK for us to link to it, iirc
<elliss> I see - solves a slightly different problem
<G2> What about: NOT BEEN EDITED OR VERIFIED
<quaid> in the title
<quaid> heh
<mether> when its launched Avatraxiom  said he will consider linking to
it from fedorafaq.org
<mether> we already link to fedorafaq.org from the release notes now
<mether> so it should work in tandem
<stickster> I just hate, hate, HATE the fact that there will be docs on
an official site saying, essentially, "This may not be correct."
<mether> stickster, inevitable really
<stickster> We might as well just let the bloggers control the
information flow
<quaid> stickster: we have rawhide in such a fashion
<mether> stickster, almost everything has disclaimers like that
<quaid> stickster: it's almost a stated goal of the project, in that
cutting edge = may not work correctly everywhere
<mether> stickster, we use such disclaimers in all of the software,
kbase, docs . basically everywhere
<quaid> mether: which gets back to Tommy's statement, they'll be ignored
<elliss> There's a middle way we haven't considered
<quaid> go!
<mether> quaid, true. 
<stickster> OK, OK, I'll stop belly-aching
<quaid> elliss: tell us
<elliss> Look to Wikipedia for a model
* quaid lol
<elliss> Every page has a  named owner
<megacoder> tcf: couldn't we put a big "NOT EVEN DRAFT" watermark in the
stylesheets for these docs?
<stickster> "I WILL EAT ALL YOUR CHEESE"
<tcf> megacoder: watermarks can definitely be added to PDF
<quaid> elliss: yes, although I've also Wikipedia as a negative example,
in that it is reportedly full of in-fighting by grammer fascists and
pages reworked for political goals.
<tcf> megacoder: probably something we can add somewhere for HTML
<elliss> We pick the owners, though
<tcf> megacoder: not sure if the HTML version will look like a watermark
per se though
<elliss> Wiki != anybody in the world
<megacoder> Yeah, it's possible to add a background piccy.
<stickster> Hey waitaminit, I is a grammar fascist
* quaid too
<stickster> :-)
<quaid> stickster: but we tend to agree, so no in-fighting :)
<elliss> That's just a choice
<quaid> elliss: ok, so wiki/Docs/* one has to be in the DocWriters group
to edit there, and some docs are promoted to require DocEditors group to
change (such as ForbiddenItems)
<elliss> Yes
<stickster> quaid: good, and perhaps we also need some way to get these
docs into a straight XML format, and possibly even auto-provision of
HTML/PDF
<elliss> The key point is ownership though
<stickster> (Subsuming PDF into the larger issue of any PDF of course)
<elliss> Wiki can become a mess because no own is responsible
<stickster> elliss: exactly
<elliss> So we make people responsible
<stickster> Big kahuna docs include: DocGuide, InstallGuide, UserGuide,
DevGuide, TransGuide
<elliss> Just as we do with CVS
<elliss> Which has no ACLs at all...
<megacoder> Gotta unexpectedly duck out.  Monitoring...
<stickster> CVS does have the option of doing so, we just haven't put it
in heavy rotation yet since no one seems to be doing anything stupid or
mean
<elliss> Exactly
<stickster> Plus you have to have cvsdocs membership already
<elliss> Membership is restricted
<quaid> we're more likely to use ACLs in wiki
<elliss> Sure - it may be better than CVS
<quaid> stickster: yes, that's where the agenda item, MoinMoin can do
some DocBook output
<mether> we can use both a concept of ownership and ACL's
<quaid> we may have to add to it at that point ...
<quaid> mether: yes
<mether> someone owns every page. senisitive pages have trusted group
members
<mether> sensitive*
<mether> nman64 watches everything anyway
<elliss> Not quite what I meant
<mether> well i am extending on that idea
<mether> elliss, but go ahead and clarify if you want to
<elliss> I was really referring to checking the content for basic
accuracy
<mether> elliss, /before/ its published?
<stickster> technical accuracy? linguistic accuracy?
<elliss> Technical
<stickster> ah
<elliss> System breaking errors
<stickster> Heck, even just "not using the right tool" errors
<mether> what about a legally sensitive page ?
<stickster> How many docs do you read that don't know how to use
chkconfig and service?
<quaid> Wiki docs have to follow the same procedures
<stickster> *docs do you read, written by people that...
<quaid> one doesn't just "start a document"
<quaid> well, one does, but you know, it will get tagged with a
disclaimer, etc.
<G2> Need to bail out. Forgot about a DVD to be back by 10pm. Sorry guys
<quaid> np
<elliss> One of the sensitive pages could be a "common errors to avoid"
page :)
<quaid> if someone starts a new page that is formal documentation, we
contact them and bring them into the fold.
<stickster> Yeah, I guess understanding how we're going to turn this
into good process is important
<quaid> that's key to our comfort level
<stickster> In a sense, the Wiki is ALL documentation
<elliss> Here's an good example to work on
<elliss> XenQuickStart
<stickster> Which, if you think about it, means we have to embrace it or
we are de facto obsolete
<quaid> stickster: yep
<quaid> stickster: the community has moved beyond us here, we're trying
to catch up
<mether> some docs make much better sense as a wiki page
<mether> but i would recommend we use wiki for all draft documentation
<quaid> nah
<quaid> use what you want
<quaid> that's the key
<mether> the reason community moved to wiki is for easy access
<quaid> mether: it's just another editing and publishing medium
<quaid> it's interchangeable
<quaid> right, the same reason they use gnotepad or jedit
<stickster> You use what you want, and the eventual destination is going
to be the Wiki
<mether> or we make sure that we put it big bold letters that we accept
documents in plain text or html rather than docbook
<stickster> Draft on the Wiki if you want, or don't... but if someone
beats you to the Wiki, work with them
<quaid> mether: been trying
<mether> i dont think we have done a good job on that
<quaid> mether: when you find somewhere that doesn't, I'll fix it
<stickster> mether: It's said in several different places, and
EMPHASIZED...
<quaid> mether: should I email f-announce-list? :)
<quaid> I will, when we get the Wiki 'rules' worked out
<mether> quaid, it doesnt hurt really
<quaid> yes
<mether> quaid, making a announcement that we accept docs in all formats
is important
<quaid> I have a plan for another "come write" email to f-announce,
after we work out the wiki
<mether> quaid, cc the docs list 
<mether> i see many people move to the wiki fedora news or else where
for docs that really should be in the release notes or part of the
documentation effort
<mether> let me bring specific examples here
<stickster> I have a feeling that part of our job is going to become
scouring the Wiki for poor English or sketchy instructions and rewriting
them
<elliss> No, again
<stickster> Not that it's a problem
<mether>
http://fedoranews.org/mediawiki/index.php/Fedora_Weekly_News_Issue_1#Missing_Screensavers_in_Fedora_Core_4
<mether> this was something that should have been in the release notes
<mether> or in an errata
<quaid> someone needed to tell the Xorg beat writer about it
<mether> i filed a bug report 
<mether> but more importantly
<elliss> mether: We need to make a distinction between FAQ/relnotes and
larger docs
<mether> the potential authors would probably have jumped into a wiki or
anything that was a easy process
<elliss> Though both might be on the same Wiki
<elliss> But with different processes
<mether> elliss, well for FC4, it was definitely release worthy, from
FC5 onwards it is probably a FAQ
<stickster> OK, I hate to be a schedule nazi, but this part of the
discussion is dragging... there's more to cover and we all have other
obligations... let's save discussion of "how to" make this process work
for the docs-list... we all know what general direction we should head
<mether> ok. i am pretty sure we all understand the needs just fine
<mether> the approach is what needs to be discussed
<stickster> On the list... we have several hundred people who might like
to participate in the discussion as well (dreaming)
<mether> if we can discuss that on the list, thats fine
<mether> stickster, well a few people recently put out very good ideas
<mether> stickster, on the lurking thread
<stickster> mether: Great, that's what the list is for
<stickster> Moving on please...
<mether> sure sure
* quaid just finished his call as well
<quaid> ok, you all have read the menu/flag for BZ email, go ahead and
comment in that bz report if you have thoughts
<quaid> our long-discussed autobuild idea (so cool that mether came up
with it, too :) that we are calling Docs Rawhide is on Sopwith's list
<stickster> Is that something that will generate a {docme] type message?
<quaid> stickster: it puts relnotes@ on the Cc: for a bug report, that's
all
<stickster> ok
<mether> quaid, great. is it happening soon though?
<quaid> we need to route it to a beat writer (reassign) or a document
tracker (such as IG material)
<mether> quaid, the docs rawhide thingy i mean
<quaid> mether: dunno when
<mether> quaid, i would love to see that happen
<quaid> no schedule set
<quaid> yeah, everyone would :)
<mether> especially when we get more docs on cvs
<stickster> Or uh... on the wiki
<quaid> I'll offer our help to Sopwith
<quaid> stickster: which I want to be in CVS, too
<stickster> k
<quaid> stickster: I've asked Seth and Elliot to make the MoinMoin back-
end save to XML in CVS, so docs we promote are really in CVS then.
<stickster> that would be beautiful
<quaid> i.e., the process to formalize a doc on the Wiki is more than
just changing it's ACL group
<quaid> it means touching the XML (maybe), putting it in CVS and giving
it a build structure, and making -that- the real Wiki page.
<quaid> that may not be the first thing we get ready, but that's what I
envision.
<quaid> ok, next
<quaid> translation and doc schedule
<quaid> I am going to press the trans lead (Sarah) for a response today,
as I want to make the schedule official for us soonest
<quaid> for those not on f-trans-l
<quaid> 2 November  - test1 documentation freeze
<quaid> 7 November  - test1 release
<quaid> 7 December  - test2 documentation freeze
<quaid> 12 December - test2 release
<quaid> 4 January   - test3 documentation freeze
<quaid> 9 January   - test3 release
<quaid> 1 February  - FC5 documentation freeze (final)
<quaid> 13 February - FC5 release
<quaid> so, the doc freeze is two days after devel freeze
<quaid> to give us time to get last minute stuff in the relnotes, and
account for the dateline
<quaid> http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-trans-list/2005-
August/msg00014.html
<quaid> there is the original message
<quaid> now, before I set this in stone, any thoughts?
<stickster> How exactly do we envision the docs included in FC5? Other
than relnotes on CD1?
<quaid> stickster: Extras RPM?
<quaid> if we get it into extras, that's the first step to Core
<stickster> Well, that's a possibility
<stickster> I'm not saying it has to be so, but it could be so
<quaid> I would then say, a package can include either everything, or a
special subset, or each doc gets it's own package.
<stickster> I'm either with you or ahead of you already ;-)
<quaid> so we would have a "FDP packaging project" of somekind
<quaid> ok, I'm all right with that, but someone has to do the work
<stickster> I volunteer
<quaid> but I'm sure if you stepped up, others might be interested
<elliss> The IG may be better alongside the Release Notes
<quaid> yes
<stickster> A good portion of this can be automated thanks to all the
other work done by the Fedora Infrastructure and Extras honchos
<quaid> totally
<quaid> and they would be fun packages to have out there
<stickster> Eventually I want us to take over ownership
of /usr/share/doc/HTML/index.html in Core
<quaid> one of the @redhat.com members can sponsor them for Core, if
need be, but that probably won't happen
<stickster> We'll start with Extras, that's easy enough
<quaid> stickster: that is part of fedora-release package, aiui
<stickster> Right
<quaid> so, we do control it
<quaid> the content, anyway :)
<elliss> Should packaging be allowed for on the schedule ?
<stickster> Oh... I see, you're right!
<quaid> elliss: good point, it's not
<stickster> I think I can make a go at this for FC5 
<quaid> k
<stickster> Details TBD on list
<quaid> stickster: do we need more time in the schedule for packaging QA
et al?
<quaid> oh, wait
<quaid> well, not wait
<stickster> no, wait
<stickster> jk
<quaid> just that we can't control translations
<quaid> so our packaging window is tighter by that
<quaid> we need to include a trans freeze that gives us time to package
the trans, right?
<mether> 2 nov is very soon
<elliss> Can we get away with one package for everything ?
<stickster> elliss: not a good idea IMOH
<stickster> *IMHO
<mether> elliss, i think we can start with that and see if we hear
complaints
<stickster> Let's discuss this on list please
<mether> elliss, compress everything in the package and explode it using
post install scripts
<mether> stickster, ok
<-- G2 has quit ("oops")
<tcf> it's after 5pm here, sorry guys, but I have to jet
<quaid> ciao
<stickster> tcf: bye, have a good one
<tcf> stickster: you too
<quaid> ok, I'll update the schedule and cross-post it
<quaid> the most important thing left is:
<quaid> CVS for trans
<quaid> and we can discuss that onlist, too
<quaid> on f-docs-l I guess
<-- tcf has quit ("Leaving")
<mether> yes that would appropriate
<quaid> megacoder: I'm going to ask about using a single Makefile for
translation, so watch out for that thread, thanks
<quaid> all right
<quaid> anyone want to hear about whatever FF babble I have?
<quaid> or be done?
<elliss> Listening...
<stickster> FF, kick it
<quaid> cool
<quaid> I'm presuming you all read the updates that came out at
LinuxWorld
<quaid> we are still waiting for by-laws from outside counsel, and are
recruiting for the board of directors.
<quaid> so, the rest of this is my opinion on the state of things:
<quaid> RH has done a good job of making a good foundation, and it had
to be done internally because of the same stuff that always makes us do
stuff behind doors, however ...
<quaid> the community voices were strong from within by those of us
representing the community, who are @redhat.com
<quaid> for example, when you see Mark Webbink quoted that "the
developers and documentation have helped to shape the foundation" or
whatever he said like that, that was me speaking for all of us, and
hopefully doing it well enough.
<elliss> I noticed the reference to documenters :)
<quaid> once the foundation is in the wild, it's up to the board to
decide where to proceed, so we will continue to have a way to influence
the direction, and more chance to, and all in the open.
<quaid> I think the by-laws have done a good job of making foundation
membership accessible and useful.
<quaid> last point, the foundation builds on what the project has been
doing, so for example, what we are doing in FDSCo is now simply codified
and formalized, so work in the project is going to continue pretty much
as before.
<stickster> Is the foundation going to continue to allow fluidity in
building process as we have been doing with FDSCo?
<stickster> You may have answered that, I'm just trying to get a sense
of what interaction this entails
* quaid contemplates a second
<quaid> in most ways, I think so, yes ... in this case, you mean
s/foundation/board/ ... they own all governance, but have a charter
(like ours) that allows them to delegate by forming steering committees
(like us) and empower those committees.
<quaid> so, it's up to the board what they do at that point, but I
figure a) they won't break what is working already, and b) they will
likely want to leave as much up to us, in terms of details
<quaid> personally, I expect to see an _active_ board, although maybe
not active at our level regularly, certainly available and accessible.
<stickster> *nod
<mether> steering committee members are board members at some level?
<stickster> OK, that does help, thanks
<stickster> mether: I don't see how
<quaid> mether: I don't think it's quite like that
<stickster> You either are, or you aren't
<mether> you never know. its legal stuff.
<quaid> it's more that steering committees are made up of members who
serve at the board's will
<quaid> and can do tasks the board assigns them to do.
<stickster> mether: Sorry, I spend a lot of time worrying about this
stuff for homeowners' association board
<quaid> mether: IANAL, but I reckon the board is the sole legal
responsibility
<mether> quaid, ok. does that mean that they have their own legal team?
<stickster> That's what I would expect
<stickster> I would expect the FF would engage one or more counsel
<quaid> yes, I would expect that
<mether> ok
<stickster> all right... thanks for the update, it's going to be
interesting
<quaid> yes
<quaid> if there is no other business ...
<elliss> One
<stickster> nope
<quaid> aye?
<elliss> Sending announcements via f-anonunce-list
<elliss> I sent an announcement and got the "passed to mods message"
<quaid> and it never came through?
<elliss> But it didn't seem to hit the list
<elliss> No, I sent it last Tuesday
<quaid> I forget, what was it about?
<elliss> yum doc
<quaid> oh, yeah!
<quaid> huh, must be a mistake
<elliss> I notice that stickster has posted a downloadable copy of the
IG to the site
<stickster> sweet, huh?
<elliss> Very
<stickster> Fixed a bug, yo
<mether> elliss, dont worry about that. i am posting it everywhere
anyway
>notting< did you see a f-announce-l moderated message from last week
about the Fedora yum guide
<elliss> Cool.  There's a thread on FedoraForums....
>notting< also, do you want some help from f-marketing to moderate that
list?  we could ask for volunteers, or do you prefer @redhat.com?
<quaid> elliss: I'm asking the moderator about it
<quaid> it still deserves an announcement, it's news
<elliss> OK. notting is listed as the mod
<mether> elliss, i posted it atleast half a dozen time in the forums and
lists
<mether> speaking of which does anyone know how many hits the different
docs gets
<mether> unique links 
<elliss> mether: Forum thread:
http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=60292
<quaid> mether: no clue
<stickster> mether: I asked one of the web folks about this; I'm not
sure they log that much due to volume of activity
<stickster> Sorry, unclear: They don't keep track of it because doing so
would involve additional load... at least that's how I understood it
<elliss> Yes.
<stickster> I think it was Elliot I reached out to, but not sure IIRC
<mether> that would be valuable information
<mether> i am sure authors would love to see stats on that
<stickster> It would be if we planned on axeing docs... not enough of
them to prune just yet :-)
<quaid> elliss: notting may have bitbucketed it on accident, can you
resubmit the message?  he'll surely let it through this time/
<mether> elliss, that forum thread isnt interesting to me
<elliss> Sure.
<elliss> mether: I'll post on it.
<elliss> To close the request that was raised there
<elliss> I just thought I'd check whether you were going to
<mether> elliss, sorry. do what?
<stickster> Is that all then?
<elliss> Yep
* stickster pokes quaid and motions to gavel
<elliss> mether: When you said "everywhere", wasn't sure if you included
this sticky on the forum
<quaid> ah, jeez
<quaid> </meeting>
-- 
Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/
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                       Red Hat SELinux Guide
http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/

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