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IRC log 29-AUG-2005 FDSCo meeting



<quaid> <meeting>
<quaid> howdy everyone
<tcf> hello
<stickster> hiya
<quaid> well, now that we're done with the pleasantries
<quaid> how 'bout that schedule?
<stickster> If relnotes content wants to start by 24 Oct, probably need
announcements in all the appropriate places
<stickster> s/start/freeze for FC5t1/
* mrj just joined
<quaid> mrj: howdy, lad
<mrj> g'day
<stickster> mrj: Welcome back Kotter
<quaid> stickster: ok, that's still me as the Voice o' Docs, unless
anyone else is starting to feel like singing some arias?
<mrj> thx
<stickster> quaid: fully assigned here, thx :-)
* quaid hums, "Yeah, they teased him a lot ..."
* stickster finishes, "But we got him on the spot, welcome back!"
* mrj hears, "Who'd a thought they'd need ya"
<quaid> fwiw, I'm not perfectly comfie with the HUGE LAG between content
freeze and devel freeze.
<G2> hi all. sorry late
<elliss> Indeed, it probably won't work for guides
<quaid> the link at the top of the notes doesn't help the version in the
installer, so if there is any late-breaking installation related stuff,
it's TFB
<quaid> elliss: I tried to give a week for trans for guides, which
should be trans updates not from scratch.
<stickster> Won't the link point to what we can republish dynamically?
Sorry if I'm dense
* quaid TFB = Too F'ing Bad
<quaid> stickster: it will, but there is no way to get to the link from
Anaconda
<elliss> quaid: From experience the big stuff hits in test2
<stickster> I gotcha, sorry
<quaid> I guess you can lead the horse to water ...
<quaid> but you can't make them hand type the URL in another window.
<elliss> So finalising the guides before then may not be workable
<stickster> The thing we have going for us is that t3 -> final, almost
nothing should really change
<quaid> anyway, it's better than what we've had, so that's always a
selling point.
<quaid> elliss: I see
<quaid> elliss: in the RHEL world, we finish a guide and give it over
for several weeks to be translated
<stickster> elliss: A good start might be getting a hold of the Anaconda
team and asking them to bulletize a list for us of things they think are
important to update for FC5 IG
<quaid> I'm interested in i) rolling translations posted, i.e., when
they become available, they get posted to the Web, and ii) allowing
trans teams to work as they see best, with a solid freeze they can rely
upon to finish after.
<quaid> this is for the guides
<quaid> relnotes, best is trans within fedora-release package
* quaid gives elliss the task to contact anaconda-devel
<elliss> We can try to nail down as much as possible, but we can't sign
off on the IG until after t3, unfortunately
<quaid> are there any problems with this schedule?
<quaid> with the caveat that the appearance of guide content freeze for
test1 might be premature.
<quaid> we could just lift that and not have a guide content freeze
until test2?
<elliss> We are at the mercy of dev requirements
<G2> I can help this time round.
<elliss> So changes may be reverted between t2 and t3
<stickster> G2: Great, we're going to need it... :-)
<elliss> We can give preliminary guides, I guess
<elliss> We just can't give hard assurances to the trans guys that the
content is final
<quaid> ok
<quaid> first question: 
<quaid> do we -want- the guides to release with FC?
<quaid> that is a commercial requirement that bugs the living daylights
out of me, every release :)
<stickster> Define "release with FC"
<quaid> i) on the day of
<elliss> The IG, yes - we want that on the CD if we can
<quaid> ii) in the week of
<quaid> iii) within several weeks of, rolling updates with announcements
<elliss> Other can be staggered
<tcf> I agree with elliss
<quaid> oh, oops, I mistaked then about the IG in terms of the schedule
<tcf> if we can get the IG out with the GOLD and on the CD, that's great
<quaid> it needs to track with the relnotes, for packaging
<quaid> we can
<tcf> since the others are online only, we can polish for a week before
releasing
<quaid> 'zactly!
<quaid> which actually could be the week that FC is sitting in final
tree format
<quaid> e.g. 1 Nov to 7 Nov.
<quaid> however
<elliss> Again, T1 doesn't mean much for the IG
<quaid> do the trans need to be on the CD?  best, yes
<quaid> elliss: 
<quaid> elliss: :) ok, let's start tracking for trans at t2?
<elliss> I'm happy to try
<quaid> right, it's only going to be as many trans as there can be
<elliss> To make this as unhard for the translators as we can
<quaid> elliss: if they can get the bulk translated in the time between
now and then, the deltas could be less ... we need noriko or someone to
help us know how that affects them
<quaid> tcf: I know they don't go for that traditionally, but that was
with line based diffs
<quaid> if they can use an xml diff tool ... 
<quaid> I don't know what bernd is doing there, I need to find out
<tcf> quaid: right, if we could give them real word diffs, they might go
for it
<quaid> ok, we'll find out more about that
<quaid> I'll revise the schedule, too :)
<quaid> thirty more seconds for schedule talk?
<quaid> onwards
<elliss> Does stickster want packaging to be on the schedule ?
<quaid> it is allotted for, yeah
<quaid> I mean, I tried :)
<quaid> but it's not spelled out
<stickster> :-)
<elliss> :)
<quaid> is there enough time in there, you think?
<stickster> I'm looking at the time between content freeze and
release...
<quaid>   01 Nov.       Relnotes freeze for release (ISO)
<quaid>   02 Nov.       Final ISO spin.
<stickster> Why would we want the relnotes in a package though?
<stickster> Are those now part of fedora-release?
<quaid> they are
<stickster> That's the place to keep them... I think repackaging them
would probably be seen as wasteful
<quaid> and we need that day to be sure they don't blow up the package,
our QA there is tight.
<quaid> IG package?
<stickster> IG, yes... 
<elliss> The package is kind of secondary, there
<elliss> It's better if it's on the ISO
<quaid> so, uh, there isn't an Applications > Documentation menu?  or
can we put stuff there?
<quaid> elliss: oh, you mean in the root of the install tree?
<quaid> ah
<stickster> I think the idea was that we should try to take advantage of
the "Help" on the Desktop menu, using scrollkeeper (GNOME) and yelp
(KDE)
<stickster> And yes to elliss' thing about the ISO
<mrj> yelp is GNOME, btw
<stickster> Whoops... what's KDE's?
<quaid> are we doing an IG package then?
<mrj> i forget
<elliss> KHelpCenter
<quaid> scrollkeeper
<stickster> :-)
<mrj> yep
<mrj> scrollkeeper is for registration in the gnome help system, iirc
<stickster> Yes, I don't see why not
<quaid> I hadn't hoped to get anything in yelp et al, although we do
have the XML
<quaid> so why the heck not, if someone wants to package it
<stickster> I'm gonna try, fer sure
<quaid> stickster: all docs?  or just the IG?  yum guide?
<stickster> IG, yum, jargon-buster, DocG, DevG(?)... others?
<quaid> cool
<stickster> Difficulty doesn't scale with the # of docs, fortunately :-)
<stickster> It sure would be cool to get the packagers-handbook up to
snuff with the Wiki
<stickster> I see ignacio camping... I would think this would be a good
way to subsume some of the content he presented
<stickster> sorry, OT... moving on
--> Sopwith (n=sopwith nat-pool-rdu redhat com) has joined #fedora-docs
* mrj must leave, briefly
--- mrj is now known as mrj_afk
<stickster> ...
<quaid> sorry :)
<quaid> recruiting for relnotes
<quaid> or we're going to have to do it again ourselves ;)
<stickster> ah
<stickster> :-)
<quaid> is this a discussion we all can participate in on f-docs-l?
<quaid> like, start a thread and try to get people to volunteer?
<quaid> and maybe someone besides me starts the thread ;-P
<stickster> This sounds like a job for G2 
* quaid is thankfully prompted to assign tasks
* stickster puts away cattle prod
<quaid> my weakness :/
<quaid> G2: can you help prod the list with a discussion on recruiting
beat writers?
<quaid> I think it's such a great way to get involved, and no one is
jumping at it.
<quaid> it's like, total inner circle shit, you get to write release
notes for Fedora!  how cool is that?
<quaid> we have lots of this coolness to spread
<stickster> We ought to make sure that beat writers get recognized in
the relnotes themselves
<stickster> "your name in lights"
<quaid> colophon!
<elliss> I was thinking just that
<quaid> all other docs, author at top is fine, but I think relnotes
needs to have a list of contributors at the end.
<elliss> It's not cool if you're anonymous :)
<quaid> damn right
<stickster> I already have people email me (who know me IRL) saying they
saw my name on the IG... I just want everyone to have that same warm
fuzzy ;-D
<stickster> quaid: colophon, excellent idea
* quaid bugzillas that
<quaid> ok, I'll make sure we get a ACK/NACK from G2 before we close
<quaid> moving on for now
<quaid> Wiki ACLs - seth applied a MoinMoin patch that allows children
pages to inherit the ACLs from their parent
<quaid> it should go down the tree until it finds a manually placed #acl
that breaks the chain
<quaid> hopefully the new #acl starts a new chain
<G2> aye sorry.
<G2> Sure
<quaid> which is what I'm counting on for Docs/ and Docs/Drafts/ to have
diff. ACL roots
<quaid> G2: thanks, figured you were distracted for a sec :)
<quaid> this morning I asked seth to apply the #acls to those pages
* quaid adds Docs.* to his subscribe list
<G2> as always
<quaid> ok, it's not changed yet
* stickster does same
<quaid> ok, commit log keyword, if Sopwith has anything to say about
that, now is a good time
<Sopwith> Basically I want to suggest waiting until the script gets
written - there may not be a single 'word' for example.
<quaid> G2: can you also take the task of starting a Wiki page of "when
to use the [docme] and other what to document guidelines"
<quaid> Sopwith: ok, that was the main thing we wanted to know, if to
wait, and we can
<quaid> many features for FC5 are already committed, we can't get those
anyway, so the timing is not necc. crucial (?)
<G2> docme?
<quaid> Sopwith: ok, we'll just get ready
<quaid> G2: sorry, I started at the end
<quaid> G2: we're looking to hvae developers insert one or more keywords
in CVS commit logs
<quaid> G2: these get scraped and generate an email to relnotes fp org,
and we sort them into appropriate relnote beats
<quaid> final questions for this meeting?
<quaid> any other important business?
--- mrj_afk is now known as mrj
<elliss> One item
<quaid> you can always amend the agenda via email, I'll make sure we get
time for the item that way
<quaid> elliss: go ahead
<elliss> Wiki > DocBook export
<elliss> We don't know the limitations
<quaid> skvidal said he'll test it for us, but that puts us in the Seth
queue
<elliss> OK. The key issue is handling of subpages
<elliss> Because doc sections will probably have to be separate pages
<quaid> I can feel quite certain it won't output a <book> the way we
make them.
<quaid> right, sep. pages
<G2> ok, fine.
<quaid> so sep. XML files for each sub page?
<elliss> I'm just guessing
<quaid> in MoinMoin, aiui, these are all just text files
<elliss> Yes
<quaid> so each page is a separate file
<quaid> look, let's be honest
<elliss> I've used MoinMoin, but only with the plain-text backend
<quaid> anyone who uses the Wiki to write something with <chapter>s is
going to regret it
<quaid> it's a short-tutorial, relnote section beat kind of tool
<stickster> quaid: hear, hear
<quaid> stickster: if someone does it, more power to 'em, but they
won't, I'm sure of that :)
<stickster> agreed
<quaid> real books require real tools, etc.
<G2> night all
<-- G2 has quit ("oops")
<tcf> and if they do, they will regret it
<quaid> but it's a great place to write and maintain a tutorial, for a
low entry cost
<tcf> gotta go too
<quaid> ciao
<tcf> have a good night
<-- tcf has quit ("Leaving")
<stickster> tcf: bye, take care
<stickster> oops :-) she's fast!
<quaid> quite
<quaid> so, we're really only trying to convert Wiki > <article> with
each subpage a <section>
<stickster> Yeah, it is really nice for being able to exchange ideas
quickly and visibly but it would be hell to try and maintain anything
past the draft level with it
<stickster> right
<stickster> I haven't had time to check the Wiki lately, I am happy with
the progress being made on the new guides
<quaid> elliss: I'm not worried about the 2xml portion of things yet,
and here's the reason:
<quaid> we don't have anything in the Wiki that we want in XML yet, and
many tutorials we may not bother converting.  
<quaid> it's more of a future option, and to allow for sets of tutorials
to be bound into a guide.
<elliss> My interest here is starting the Admin Guide
<quaid> so, pages that go from Docs/Drafts/ to Docs/ are just going to
be renamed Wiki pages, for now.
<quaid> ah, ic
<elliss> To go beyond a topic list I have to pick a tool
<quaid> what do the authors want to use?
<elliss> That's the issue of course
<stickster> Emacs + PSGML, all else is folly
<stickster> :-D
<elliss> CVS means doing it all myself
<elliss> Wiki may not
<quaid> stickster: you go, Curmudgeon Boy!
<stickster> Never by yourself... :-)
<stickster> quaid: Hush up or I'll cane you, whippersnapper
<quaid> elliss: can you identify a page in the current wiki that might
make an interesting conversion?
<quaid> elliss: or several, enough to get Seth to test.
<elliss> XenQuickstart
<quaid> ah, right, you said that before, cool
<elliss> I've been updating it
<elliss> And getting feedback too..
<elliss> So there's interest
<quaid> FedoraXenQuickstart ?
--> mariusm (n=mariusm modemcable051 52-131-66 mc videotron ca) has
joined #fedora-docs
<elliss> yep that's it
<quaid> elliss: if you can break the admin guide down to a number of
chapters, and make each a single Wiki root, then generate all your
content there for a while ...
<quaid> elliss: I'll see what I can do about getting some sample XML
output
<elliss> Well, so far I have a chapter list
<quaid> I could see the first draft being doable entirely in a Wiki,
with a pretty mature draft at that point.
<elliss> What I'm not sure on is how to link section/wiki pages to tie
together as a single doc
<quaid> ok, before I consider that point.
<stickster> elliss: I guess what happens automatically is up to this new
facility... but if it outputs them separately, you can declare each file
as an entity and include them in the main <article> page
<quaid> yes, to do the the XML our way is going to require a parent XML
file, that pulls in the entities, legalnotice, etc.
<quaid> I'm going to end the meeting, with discussion to continue.
<quaid> elliss: I'll Cc: on email with Seth about the 2xml conversion
tests
<quaid> </meeting>
-- 
Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/
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                       Red Hat SELinux Guide
http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/

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