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IRC Log FDSCo Meeting 6 December 2005



(21:14:34) quaid: <meeting>
(21:14:43) quaid: hi megacoder, slow down!
(21:15:03) megacoder: Yeah, I can't type so fgast anyomre
(21:16:42) quaid: so, we broke f.r.c today, but only enough to send
error messages
(21:16:54) gregdek: We did?
(21:17:00) quaid: sorry if you are getting them, we're working on it on
#fedora-websites
(21:17:06) quaid: hi gregdek, yeah, but not visually
(21:17:10) quaid: the content is all live
(21:17:26) quaid: some php is erroring, and that's what I know
(21:17:32) ***gregdek hrms.
(21:17:39) stickster: I saw messages about widgets.inc
(21:17:44) quaid: yeah, those
(21:18:01) quaid: gregdek: got a shell on f.r.c? sopwith is out of
pocket today
(21:18:08) gregdek: OK, so they're showing up in the error log but
nowhere else?
(21:18:28) ***gregdek looks to see if he has a shell of f.r.c he's
forgotten about...
(21:18:32) quaid: PHP Warning: Invalid argument supplied for foreach()
in /var/fedorascratch/LIVE-2005-12-06-16.15/tmp/include/widgets.inc on
line 85
(21:18:36) quaid: X3
(21:18:46) quaid: uh, so
(21:18:51) quaid: I don't want to take over this meeting with that
problem
(21:18:59) gregdek: No shell, sorry.
(21:19:05) quaid: so, gregdek, can you drop over to #fedora-websites for
any insight
(21:19:33) quaid: which segues into ...
(21:19:40) quaid: new content on f.r.c, new logo
(21:19:56) quaid: stuff is moved, more stuff was moved, cruft was
removed
(21:20:15) quaid: the (now) /About/Projects/{projectname}.php pages need
updating
(21:20:19) quaid: iirc
(21:20:39) stickster: I got your mail about review of the material but
have had zero time for FDP this week, sorry
(21:20:50) quaid: I mean, here:
(21:20:55) quaid: http://fedora.redhat.com/About/Projects/selinux.html
(21:21:02) quaid: "Security-enhanced Linux (SELinux)is a patch of the
Linux® kernel and a number of utilities with enhanced security
functionality ..."
(21:21:12) quaid: I have to change that right now, but still, that's
embarassing
(21:21:19) quaid: it hasn't been a patch since 2.4 kernel
(21:21:25) gregdek: Heh.
(21:21:32) quaid: actually
(21:21:39) quaid: someone who is not me needs to own that page
(21:21:46) stickster: Disco
(21:22:08) stickster: You got a nibble on SELinux last week methinks...
I answered onlist, did you follow up with the contributor?
(21:22:36) stickster: Oh, I see you did
(21:22:37) quaid: yes
(21:22:38) stickster: nm :-)
(21:22:47) quaid: yeah, he has CVS access and seems motivated
(21:22:55) quaid: I'm hoping we see a commit within the week :)
(21:25:01) quaid: hi
(21:25:04) quaid: my name is quaid 
(21:25:09) quaid: and I am very distractable today
(21:25:15) ***quaid seeks comfort in task list
(21:25:30) quaid:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/FedoraDocsSchedule
(21:25:32) quaid: *ah*
(21:25:44) quaid: how is everyone, btw?
(21:25:52) quaid: any complaints?
(21:26:11) stickster: peachy, just very busy
(21:27:29) quaid: ok, I moved the first item to the bottom
(21:27:37) quaid: at stickster's suggestion from last week
(21:27:40) stickster: :-)
(21:27:41) quaid: as it is stalled for now
(21:28:08) quaid: so, anything up with DocsRawhide?
(21:28:15) quaid: do we have any RFEs?
(21:28:19) megacoder: Stalled, but is there any hope of action any time
soon?
(21:28:26) quaid: ok
(21:28:36) ***quaid looks for an email, one sec
(21:29:02) quaid:
http://wiki.apache.org/xmlgraphics/GnuClasspathCompatibility
(21:29:19) quaid: "
(21:29:19) quaid: The Apaches have bought into fixing Batik so it will
run on GNU
(21:29:19) quaid: Classpath based VMs. This was a precondition to
getting FOP working. I
(21:29:19) quaid: think they've started checking in their mods."
(21:29:28) quaid: "Once they've cleaned up Batik, I think the only thing
left is for
(21:29:28) quaid: somebody (Tom Fitzsimmons probably) to implement
java.awt.BasicStroke
(21:29:28) quaid: (on top of Cairo). I still don't think this will be
done in time for
(21:29:28) quaid: FC5, but the wheels are in motion and it's certain to
be ready shortly
(21:29:28) quaid: afterwards.
(21:29:29) quaid: "
(21:29:42) quaid: that is what I have latest, as of 24 Nov.
(21:30:12) megacoder: This is good news.
(21:32:04) quaid: there! see I didn't know I had good news
(21:32:13) quaid: the only part I got was the last sentence, so I was
bummed.
(21:33:52) megacoder: I learned a long time ago that for a sentence like
"Yes, but only if blah, blah", my boss quit listening after the "yes".
Never did that again.
(21:34:27) quaid: <-- blah blah blah blah not in time for FC5
(21:35:21) stickster: gregdek: if I comment out the line "unset $item,"
the page loads (on my local mirror)
(21:35:28) megacoder: Even bad breath is better than no breath at all.
This means it can happen sooner or later. I'd have rather had sooner.
(21:35:40) quaid: aye
(21:36:29) quaid: ok, I threw in that URL to watch on the schedule
(21:36:33) quaid: and on to DocsRawhide
(21:37:09) quaid: hmm ... time to start an RFE thread on f-docs-l?
(21:37:14) quaid: or just discuss here first?
(21:38:15) elliss: The list is probably better
(21:38:26) elliss: The clock is running here...
(21:39:02) stickster: everything on the list that doesn't need
authority/decision, IMHO
(21:39:41) quaid: ok, we solved the draft issue, so on we go
(21:40:15) quaid: ya'll need anything for the packaging?
(21:40:19) quaid: any heads we can bust?
(21:40:41) stickster: Yes, Father Time please
(21:40:44) quaid: I tried to get some attention from folks I figured
were downstream consumers here at RH, so their silence now means
consent.
(21:40:59) stickster: I am working during this meeting because it's the
first chance I've had since last Tues
(21:41:18) ***quaid hurries up so stickster can get more packaging donw
(21:41:25) stickster: :-D
(21:41:35) quaid: about beat writers ... that's really about
contributors ... and recruiting
(21:41:50) quaid: I'm on a push now to change the culture in
developers ... to be one of content contributors
(21:41:53) megacoder: stickster; I can help some if I know what you
want.
(21:42:04) quaid: so, that's the thing to think about
(21:42:05) stickster: I'm not sure I do know, which is part of the
problem
(21:42:14) stickster: But I am working through it with my therapist
(21:42:37) quaid: how to help developers be content contributors
(21:42:43) megacoder: quaid: even if the developers could contribute
sticky notes, that would be a help.
(21:43:00) quaid: if you get inspired, write up ideas on list so we can
pursue them
(21:43:27) megacoder: ah, teach me to contribute ;-)
(21:43:44) quaid: stickster: what do you think about the email you Cc:d
me on re: licensing?
(21:44:04) stickster: What were we waiting on to make an announcement?
(21:44:06) stickster: FF?
(21:44:19) quaid: *sigh*
(21:44:21) quaid: yeah
(21:44:28) stickster: crap
(21:44:50) quaid: well
(21:44:53) quaid: it's the FF's licensing policy
(21:45:00) quaid: we are being handed
(21:45:06) quaid: not to say we didn't have input, but here it is
(21:45:14) quaid: so it made sense that way, to wait
(21:45:16) quaid: gregdek: help
(21:46:49) quaid: stickster: I'll see what I can figure out
(21:46:53) ***quaid moves onward
(21:46:58) quaid: MoinMoin2DBXML
(21:47:26) quaid: I'm trying to rustle up a technical resource to
contribute to this effort, more when I hear more.
(21:48:03) quaid: the problem is the NIH v. the download, install,
patch, explode, repeat (DIPER)
(21:48:35) quaid: I'm seeing that our approach when it comes to Web
services is ... uh ... very selective. Which is good, but slow.
(21:49:22) elliss: Would it help if access for this service was more
restricted ?
(21:49:23) quaid: so, I figure, for now, I'm going to be manually
updating the XML from the Wiki XML
(21:49:49) quaid: not if it's Web facing in any way, I reckon?
(21:49:51) quaid: I don't know, really
(21:50:09) elliss: Every contributor has to give an IP address
(21:50:20) elliss: With the CLA signup
(21:50:25) quaid: it's just that our onus is higher ... we aren't some
small project, like, Apache has to develop and host on Apache stuff,
right?
(21:50:59) quaid: so whatever we choose has to become part of who we
are, etc. ... I feel like that is as much at stake as the straight
security.
(21:51:29) quaid: elliss: too restrictive, for what gain?
(21:51:29) elliss: I think that Docs drafting is a separate service to
Wiki and Website
(21:51:37) quaid: does it hide interfaces enough?
(21:52:37) elliss: If a PHP solution for this is much more functional,
but security is the key problem...
(21:53:47) elliss: Then restricting the access via IP is one way of
addressing the issue 
(21:54:33) quaid: yes, i guess so, but at a high restriction ... 
(21:54:44) quaid: I think too high, but I have nothing to do the risk
analysis with
(21:54:58) megacoder: Some folks don't have fixed IP addresses. Why not
just give login access to the server is question? Admit them all and let
Linux sort it out.
(21:55:20) megacoder: Then accept only local changes.
(21:55:29) quaid: ah
(21:55:30) quaid: hmm
(21:55:46) quaid: or a shell so they could setup an ssh tunnel
(21:55:54) quaid: and then expose the PHP to localhost only :)
(21:56:01) megacoder: yup
(21:56:22) megacoder: I like gordian knot "solutions" ;-)
(21:56:23) quaid: instant private network
(21:58:25) quaid: ok, we'll throw that ideer into the pot.
(21:58:44) quaid: anything else?
(21:58:52) quaid: remainder of time to AOB
(21:59:06) stickster: AOB - contributor checkup
(21:59:34) stickster: I got 2 answers out of 6 queries, one "I'll be
there soon!" and one "You folks aren't using a good license, so I'm
stuck"
(22:00:03) stickster: I followed up on the latter obviously, more as I
find out
(22:00:08) stickster: Anyone else do their duty?
(22:01:49) elliss: I had a conversation with two of the people on the
list 
(22:02:13) elliss: They're setting up a Website with nman64
(22:02:27) stickster: ?
(22:02:47) elliss: fedoraunity.org
(22:03:07) elliss: To pull together various community resources
(22:03:31) stickster: With all due respect to everyone involved, I'm not
sure what signal that's supposed to send... another website to do what?
(22:03:52) stickster: quoting from the site:
(22:04:00) stickster: The Fedora Unity project has been created by
concerned peers in the Fedora Community to fulfill the need to bring
unity to the Community. These are members of the Community who want to
see the best content find its way into the hands of the Community.
Members may include site maintainers, Fedora Project contributors, and
interested users.
(22:04:44) quaid: my feeling is, it is a channel for energy that Fedora
is unable to use.
(22:04:58) elliss: Agree
(22:05:31) elliss: There are a number of sites around run by individuals
(22:05:39) quaid: and always will be
(22:05:40) stickster: My question (a serious one, not snarky) is, why
are we unable to use that energy? What are we doing wrong? Or
alternately, what barriers still exist?
(22:05:42) ***quaid hopes
(22:06:01) quaid: stickster: some of it is still that, some is
encumberance due to RHAT, US laws, etc.
(22:06:13) quaid: stickster: some is just that it is never possible to
be an umbrella for all activity
(22:06:26) quaid: nor should Fedora try to be the Borg :)
(22:06:41) stickster: We don't want to try and snarf up everything
obviously, but I just hope that we aren't ignoring or missing barriers
that could be lowered or removed
(22:06:54) quaid: I don't think so
(22:06:59) nman64: Unity's goals are largely shared with the Fedora
Project. Hopes are that it might eventually become an official project.
(22:07:01) quaid: the ppl involved in those sites are right here
(22:07:08) quaid: so they make us aware of those barriers
(22:07:35) nman64: The people organizing it are people who work with the
external community sites. They want to act as middlemen to bring the
external and internal resources together.
(22:07:37) stickster: OK, my only point being that people aren't turning
there out of discouragement at the official projects
(22:07:46) quaid: well, some may be
(22:07:49) quaid: that's another thing
(22:07:57) quaid: there will _always_ be the disenfranchised
(22:07:57) stickster: Sorry, that should have read "...being that *I
hope* people..."
(22:08:11) quaid: due to assholes who make them feel bad, or personal
attitude
(22:08:12) nman64: No, Bob and Scott are doing what they know, and then
later worrying about bringing it under the FP umbrella.
(22:08:18) quaid: unofficial projects give them a way to contribute
(22:08:36) quaid: and get their ideas filtered through those who _can_
be involved in the community without giving or taking offense enough to
leave :)
(22:08:48) BobJensen left the room (quit: Read error: 104 (Connection
reset by peer)).
(22:09:11) quaid: so, projects like this allow those people to remain
involved and still feed their personal demons
(22:09:25) quaid: some people just can't stand mixing their rebellion
with processes and procedures :)
(22:09:30) stickster: Well, an example is that one of the first things I
saw there was a network installation guide that seemed like a
repetittion of 90% of the info in the install guide... fortunately the
author filed a bug so we could address it, but that seems like wasted
energy to me
(22:10:31) stickster: I'm not advocating control over this info...
probably I'm just scratching my head at the inefficiency
(22:10:44) stickster: But OTOH, whatever floats people's boats
(22:10:54) nman64: Unity wants to gather what information it can from
the many external sites and bring it into FDP. They also want to work
with FDP to bring direct improvements. For example, Bob was beginning to
work last night on helping Ignacio improve the packaging guide.
(22:11:15) EvilBob: Hi Guys
(22:11:21) EvilBob is now known as BobJensen
(22:12:07) nman64: BobJensen: Good timing.
(22:12:29) BobJensen: I don't have a lot of time we have Soldiers coming
home today
(22:12:50) megacoder: Hooray!
(22:12:54) BobJensen: let me scroll back and catch up
(22:13:26) nman64: megacoder: Do you mean hoorah or hooah? ;-)
(22:13:50) megacoder: Well, I was trying to translate "hot d*mn"!
(22:14:44) ***nman64 wonders how many people in here understand the
significance of 'hoorah' (Marines) and 'hooah' (Army).
(22:15:15) stickster: I live near Quantico and have a boss who went to
West Point ;-)
(22:16:26) BobJensen: I would be glad to answer any questions aboutt he
goals of our FedoraUnity project that any one has
(22:17:10) BobJensen: The project is building gaining speed and
attention
(22:17:50) stickster: Any other AOB then?
(22:18:26) BobJensen: AOB?
(22:18:26) stickster: BobJensen: Just to clarify or reiterate, I guess
I'm not sure what the need is that drove the site, but I'm willing to
sit back and be convinced over time
(22:18:27) stickster: :-)
(22:18:36) quaid: all other business
(22:18:38) quaid: all done?
(22:18:46) megacoder: bye
(22:18:55) quaid: </meeting>

-- 

Stuart Ellis

stuart elsn org

Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/

GPG key ID: 7098ABEA
GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E  9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA

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