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FDSCO meeting IRC log 12 July 2005



<quaid> <meeting>
<quaid> hello friends
<mether> quaid, Hello
--> mrj (~mjohnson nat-pool-rdu redhat com) has joined #fedora-docs
<quaid> from now on, I am going to include anyone in the notes as
present if they are camping here :)
* mrj is here now...
<quaid> hi, mrj, just getting started
<mrj> hou dee
<quaid> megacoder: if you are presente, did you get a chance to see the
owners.list I checked in last night?
<megacoder> Yes, but I didn't have much context for it.  Why for?
<quaid> for those that didn't catch the news, sopwith updated some
process widgetry so that we can edit our bugzilla components from
cvs/foo/owners/owners.list
<elliss> Vert handy
<elliss> Very, very
<quaid> let me fwd his email
<megacoder> spiffy idea
<quaid> I thought it to owners of /cvs/docs but it might have
been /cvs/fedora instead
<quaid> ok, fwd'd to f-dsco-l for the record
<quaid> I guess dkl still has to actually designate the new Fedora
Documentation product in bugzilla, but once that happens, we can update
that file and hourly it updates bugzilla.
--> Sopwith (~sopwith nat-pool-rdu redhat com) has joined #fedora-docs
<tcf> hi, I'm here ;-) sorry I'm a little late
<Sopwith> quaid: The product should automatically be created if you
specify it in the file.
<quaid> ah
<elliss> Does it autogen the bug numbers ?
<quaid> Sopwith: burning ears? :)
<Sopwith> Sorry, I meant to be hear on time.
<quaid> elliss: this is Product and Component
<elliss> D'oh
<Sopwith> err here
<elliss> Mental readjustment required
<elliss> I'll get used to it
<quaid> Sopwith: how do you specify the product info in the file?  I
didn't see a ref. in the comments
<quaid> ok, now that everyone has the context ... take a chance to look
at the file
<quaid>  /cvs/docs/owners/owners.list :)
<Sopwith> quaid: The only info that could theoretically be specified is
a description for the product, and nobody reads those anyways, so... :)
<quaid> or in the commit message
<quaid> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/enter_bug.cgi
<quaid> I don't see it in the Fedora Products section, for example
<quaid> which does have a description, fwiw
--> stickster (~pfrields pool-70-17-99-195 res east verizon net) has
joined #fedora-docs
<stickster> Hi gang, sorry I'm late
* quaid looks around more in bugzilla
<quaid> stickster: no worries, just talking about the first item, you'll
get some background on the file /cvs/docs/owners/owners.list in a fwd. I
just made to f-dsco-l
<quaid> Sopwith: it is also not within the Product dropdown in a bug
report, so it is not in bugzilla afaict.
<Sopwith> OK, my bug then :)
<quaid> so, everyone else, how does the initial owners.list look?
<quaid> as I said in the commit, I did a few assignments of writer or
editor based on proximity, i.e., you touched it last or most.
<quaid> these were partially just to fill the blank.
<elliss> OK.  I was puzzled why I'm listing against the USB tutorial
<quaid> there are some editor assignments, such as for elliss and G2,
that are assignments, though :) ... so look for yourself and let me know
if you disagree with anything.
<stickster> I see my address is suddenly @RH?  :-D
<quaid> elliss: that is the initialqacontact, designated as "editor" in
the comments
<quaid> stickster: I had such a hard time with that!
<quaid> I couldn't stop from doing that last night
<quaid> I must have started @re a dozen times
* quaid fixes
<stickster> Damn, I thought that 2nd paycheck was in the mail... oh
well ;-)
<quaid> ha! four times
<stickster> I'll shoot you email with any other gripes :-)
<quaid> ok, updated
<quaid> all right
<quaid> Sopwith: note that I added additional comments and whitespace,
that may have goofed something up in your automagic
<quaid> ok, if that is all on that for now ...
* quaid pauses
<quaid> ok, so that experience led me to realize a few things:
<quaid> 1) we have a few too many documents on updating systems and
perhaps they could be combined or reviewed for repetition
<quaid> and more importantly
<quaid> 2) we have docs ready or close to ready to publish and need to
have some sort of Push to Publish Week.
* tcf seconds Push to Publish Week
<tcf> do all the docs on updates still have maintainers?
<elliss> No...
<elliss> The "updates" is unmaintained
<quaid> that's right
<quaid> and fairly old, iirc
<elliss> The other two will supercede it
<stickster> elliss: my thoughts exactly
<quaid> the other two also appear to be complementary, right?
<quaid> or -could- be complementary
<tcf> should we have a way to mark modules in CVS as "unmaintained"
<elliss> Yes.
<stickster> quaid: Yes... the only glitch I see is that up2date in FC4
is a bit queasy still IIRC... 
<quaid> rather, there are three - yum-s-m, desktop-up2date, and mirror-
tutorial
<quaid> I say, document yum!
<quaid> :)
<stickster> mirror-tutorial is not about using software management... it
is only about building a mirror
<elliss> Yes - mirror is very useful
<stickster> So any sections in it that are y-s-m or d-u duplicative
should be checked against those two and removed
<quaid> stickster: can't the mirror be useful for yum repo?
<quaid> ok, right
<elliss> The overlap is that not all repos are mirrors
<stickster> Absolutely... there is info in it about using createrepo I
think
<quaid> ok, this was one reason I put you two in writer-editor combo,
let's do the same for the updates module, and you can sort it out.
* quaid changes the owner for updates
<quaid> what week would be a good week?
<quaid> or rather, what weeks are bad? :)
<stickster> elliss: I have been a little delinquent of late with
editing, simply because of other commitments... you can help by going
over your tutorials and checking them for style, against the
Installation Guide if the style stuff in DocGuide is too much
<elliss> Already done.
<stickster> elliss: But I will try and cover a few sections by the end
of this weekend if possible
<stickster> Bad: Aug 8-12
<elliss> The up2date tutorial is complete.  The yum one will see some
churn over the next few days (new developments with FC4).
<elliss> OK.  up2date is now complete - just commited some alterations.
<elliss> Hopefully the yum tutorial will be done by the weekenbd
<quaid> can anyone -not- do a Push to Publish next week?
<quaid> we can always do it again :)
<tcf> I can after tues (mon and tues are bad for me)
<stickster> The week after (25-29) is awesome for me, no commitments
<stickster> But the 18-22 is do-able
<quaid> how about this, we do 18 - 22 and preannounce that we might do a
follow-up on 25 - 29
<-- G2 has quit ("oops")
<stickster> wfm
<quaid> the idea being, activity in the first week + announcement may
get some people to hurry up and finish.
<stickster> like me :-D
<quaid> ok, I'll do the announcement on that following the meeting
* quaid too
<elliss> Note that the only active author not present here is Charles
Heselton
<tcf> oops, I'll be out of town on the 22, but I'll help before I leave
next week
<quaid> elliss: *ssh*
<stickster> We had a few other people who said they were working on
docs, but no mail to list...
<stickster> whoops
<quaid> elliss: there are others who I think are lurkingly active, that
is, they are working not in CVS, etc.
<stickster> quaid: jinx (per usual)
<quaid> aye
<quaid> so, hoping the flurry of activity on list (keep all work on
list), with lots of CVS usage and bugzilla reports under new product,
etc., will make us look all interesting and real.
<stickster> Fernando says, it is better to look good than to feel good,
dahling
<quaid> you've noticed that I've followed this philosophy in the FDP for
a while :)
<quaid> ok, moving along ...
<quaid>   http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Tasks
<quaid> this arose from a discussion right here a few meetings ago, you
may recall
<quaid> still in whiteboard stage, something to include in the DocGuide,
methinks
<stickster> Yes... I am putting some notes in the outline right now
<quaid> this also needs to be updated to reflect our new product status,
I'll do that following the meeting
<quaid> mrj: how does this task process sound?  too cumbersome?
<quaid> assume it's adjusted for new bz status
<stickster> Just my $0.02, I think it *sounds* more cumbersome than it
*is*
<quaid> yeah, maybe that's it
<elliss> Use fewer words :)
<quaid> ok :)
<stickster> Like in Amadeus ("use fewer notes")
<stickster> When you think about it... you simply take notes on the
wiki, figure out how to make bugs out of it, enter the bugs, and make
sure it's on the schedule
<stickster> The rest is just making sure the wiki & bugs follow a format
that's useful
<quaid> coo'
<quaid> I'll update that page with these suggestions, we'll see how it
improves.
<quaid> any other thoughts?
<quaid> (on that subj.)
<elliss> Nope.
<quaid> ok
<stickster> nada
* quaid has to allow for IRC lag :)
<quaid> last on agenda item was, did anyone want to train on how-to
update the fedora.redhat.com website?
<quaid> might help the push-to-publish :)
<quaid> I'll ask g2 if he comes back
<quaid> ok
<stickster> yes
<elliss> Are we punting the Doc Guide ?
<megacoder> Could you send a transcript to fdsco?
<quaid> have time following the meeting?  should be quick, if you have a
machine with an unused http srever
<quaid> oh, did I skip that?
<stickster> elliss: shhh
<stickster> !*$(%
<quaid> ah, I had part of my agenda get eaten in Emacs
<stickster> Emacs would never do that to anyone
<elliss> Lisp is the language of AI
<elliss> Be afraid
<quaid> it was my own fault, I reckon
<megacoder> AI presuposes NI, a false premise.
<quaid> ha!
<quaid> true dat
<quaid> megacoder: yeah, I'll post IRC log to fdsco
<megacoder> Before we leave, I have an AOB.
<quaid> go ahead
* quaid supposes that stickster would have let quaid know if there was
something to talk about for the docg already, no big thang
<megacoder> Has anyone (TCF?) tried building example-tutorial under
CYGWIN?  I've tried and looks like all we need to is to mangle the
"/usr/share..." prefixes into "/usr/share/docbook-xsl" prefixes.  Has
anyone done that yet?
* stickster has taken too long to deal with turning burgeoning outline
into useful division of tasks but will try to tackle now
<megacoder> I've gotten the HTML stuff to build, but haven't tried
parameterizing the CYGWIN customizations.
<elliss> Not sure how many people use Cygwin with FDP stuff.  Perhaps
some translators ?
<elliss> Since there is a Windows setup guide for them
<stickster> megacoder: Sorry for ignorance... That would involve what,
changing the XSL stuff in docs-common?
<stickster> Abstracting out the locations or something?
<megacoder> Well, you caught me ;-)  It was an OT.  Sorry.
<megacoder> stickster: exactly.  Maybe adding an <xsl:param> and
replacing all the absolute paths with a {doc.filename.prefix} or
something.
<stickster> gotcha
<stickster> Very sensible and cool idea
<megacoder> stickster: you're volunteering then?
<quaid> I tend to shy away from non-FC solutions, but if we can somewhat
painlessly help out our OS-bound friends, I'm all for it.
<stickster> No, I know roughly 0.001 about XSL
<stickster> quaid: There is a translation-guide-windows, iirc
<quaid> although why not just download PuTTY and be done with it, I
don't know ...
<quaid> stickster: well, I didn't put it there :)
<stickster> tee hee
<megacoder> tcf is conspicuously silent.  Ahem!
<quaid> stickster: IMHO, it is out of scope for FDP, but not really my
issue, I think.
<quaid> I figure sarahs owns it and it's part of the Fedora Translation
Project :)
<quaid> we just happen to have it in our CVS tree :)
<megacoder> OK.  Withdrawn.
<stickster> I would think that if megacoder or someone can do it with a
minimum of fuss and it doesn't make our life any more difficult, no
reason not to do it
<quaid> agreed
<stickster> But we are too late, withdrawn!  :-D
<quaid> ok, a last AOB for the heck of it.
<megacoder> I was trying to solicit a volunteer.  Maybe a newbie would
be suckered in...
<quaid> :)
<quaid> I'll keep it in mind if I get into the XSL
<quaid> this Thu. is the first Fedora marketing meeting, been lots of
activity on list
<stickster> I have an AOB too when you get done
<quaid> I was asked in to represent the FDP, etc., and of course pull my
weight :(
<BobJensen> heh
<quaid> as part of that, we began work on the Fedora booth for LWCE SF
<stickster> Like you didn't have enough to do already
<quaid> so that is happening, and logos and such, as some of you have
seen already.
<quaid> so, if you have something for Fedora marketing but don't want to
join the list/discussion, I'm happy to front for you as your chairdude.
<quaid> stickster: I actually volunteered for booth bunny duty last
January :)
<quaid> </aob>
<stickster> <aob>
<stickster> Speaking of 0.001, did anyone look at the XSL tinkering I
did to make legalnotice inclusion do what I thought everyone wanted?
<quaid> who what where?
<stickster> this was a while ago... maybe 1-2 weeks?
<quaid> I did not notice that :)
<stickster> maybe that's good then!
<stickster> Legalnotice was coming out linked in "nochunks" builds, now
it's not
<quaid> ah
<stickster> I think I did the right thing, but would love someone to
confirm or slap
<-- megacoder has quit ("I worship His Shadow")
<quaid> um, I think so
<stickster> actually, just confirm or gripe
<quaid> well, see, I have to think about this
<elliss> Is the licence specified elsewhere in the doc ?
<quaid> jlaska did this whole process of making the new nochunks stuff,
and I thought there might have been a reason weleft html-common.xsl as
is ..
<quaid> like, you are supposed to use a nochunks version instead?
<quaid> elliss: this also came up because I hacked to move it to an
<appendix> but megacoder pointed out that doesn't fly.
<quaid> what I wanted to do was get it inline, but -below- the ToC
<stickster> Ah
<quaid> stickster: doesn't removing the separate file making from html-
common.xsl mean that the license is not a separate file in the chunked
html?
<elliss> Could it be at the end as a <section>, but not an appendix ?
<quaid> possibly
<quaid> just calling it an appendix may be the problem.
<stickster> sorry... checking cvs
<quaid> as in, appendix = non-essential, which doesn't describe the
legalnotice :)
<stickster> Right... it needs to be in the actual doc; I think someone
mentioned this onlist somewhere
<tcf> gotta go guys! ttyl
<-- tcf has quit ("Leaving")
<quaid> yeah, that was Tommy
<elliss> Yes - it may be that not using the word appendix would be OK.
<quaid> right, and the <appendix> container :)
<quaid> bugt <section> instead
<quaid> ok
<elliss> Or having a one line link to the text, and put the full text
somewhere else.
<stickster> Ah, I see I made a mistake... I think the change from r1.4-
>r1.5 of main-html.xsl should have been in main-html-chunks.xsl instead
<elliss> So it doesn't clutter the doc
<stickster> It works, but it's essentially doing "all HTML docs will do
X" except when overridden, as in main-html-nochunks.xsl... I think
<stickster> XSL makes my head spin, I don't get it yet
<quaid> meeting is essentially done, but we can continue working on this
topic
<stickster> </aob>
<stickster> Oh wait a minute, I see I noted this in my change at lesat
<quaid> elliss: yes, good point, that's what I did with the relnotes
errata, put in a one liner similar to what is in the header of source
code that referes to LICENSE
<stickster> *least
<quaid> </meeting>
-- 
Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/
gpg fingerprint:  2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115    5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41   
                       Red Hat SELinux Guide
http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/

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