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IRC Log FDSCo 22 Nov 2005

(21:10:21) quaid: ok, let's rock on
(21:10:53) G2: k
(21:11:39) quaid: ok, my favorite subject, which I have no news on
(21:11:51) quaid: ecj compiled Saxon
(21:12:04) quaid: mrj: have you noticed any movement from the pushing I
was trying to do?
(21:12:56) quaid: yeah, it's been like that
(21:12:58) quaid: no news
(21:13:09) stickster: :-)
(21:15:00) megacoder: no nudes is good nudes
(21:16:02) quaid: OK, I'm bugging my upstream, will report back later
(21:16:12) quaid: let's move on
(21:16:21) ***quaid wonders if these meetings are boring now
(21:16:24) quaid: not rowdy enough/
(21:16:25) quaid: ?
(21:16:36) stickster: DocsRawhide seems to be working well
(21:16:40) quaid: oh, cool, so what did you all think of the
(21:16:52) quaid: voilas and violas
(21:16:56) elliss: Very happy
(21:16:59) megacoder: Made my head swim
(21:17:12) quaid: it's wicked cool, I want more features :)
(21:17:15) stickster: Like you said, we need something to do "on
request" builds of old branches when needed, but other than that, disco
(21:17:16) elliss: Did you note comment from J. Spelata
(21:17:23) elliss: WRT robots.txt
(21:17:25) quaid: I enjoyed that we can tweak stuff with the Makefile
(21:17:37) elliss: So that Google doesn't cache the pages
(21:17:40) quaid: I rolled out the ja_JP and zh_CN versions of the
Installatin guide with that fix
(21:17:44) quaid: oh, yeah
(21:17:57) quaid: Sopwith: forgot to ask if docsRawhide is hid from
(21:18:04) stickster: Yeah, there's no robots.txt yet
(21:18:26) stickster: Maybe Sopwith has ancient Chinese secret for this
stuff tho'
(21:18:35) megacoder: Er, no /robots.txt just means no restrictions on
what robots can do, right?
(21:18:42) quaid: yeah
(21:19:30) quaid: hmm
(21:19:43) quaid: I wonder if we could make a robots.txt be part of the
(21:19:50) quaid: so it gets picked up ...
(21:19:56) quaid: anyway, does anyone know how to write one?
(21:20:06) BobJensen: I do
(21:20:09) megacoder: Yeah, nothing to it
(21:20:26) BobJensen: quite simple and well documented
(21:20:31) avatraxiom: http://www.robotstxt.org/
(21:20:37) megacoder: I've got one at
http://www.megacoder.com/robots.txt if you wanna see one.
(21:21:53) ***quaid is back in the conf room with the nice view
(21:22:29) ***quaid tries that again
(21:22:40) megacoder: Say "hi" to the receptionist for me. Tell her I'm
the ex-developer course trainer and she should remember.
(21:23:00) quaid: megacoder: Rose?
(21:23:24) Sopwith: No, it's not hidden from google.
(21:23:31) ***quaid hasn't seen hmaine, davec around today
(21:23:36) megacoder: Dunno. Older lady, real nice, black hair IIRC
(21:23:51) quaid: Sopwith: can we?
(21:24:38) Sopwith: quaid: I think it might be to your advantage to
leave it as-is. More visibility for the docs project, and users going to
the latest docs if they are relevant to their search.
(21:25:10) Sopwith: To me it's part of being a little more open and
transparent about things.
(21:25:24) quaid: I open this topic for input from the assembled.
(21:26:12) stickster: Problem is the docs content is then floated in the
Googlemind for ??? how long... if it's wrong, it can affect the masses
(21:26:16) BobJensen: the docs are changing and not part of the current
sta ble releaseI say no to google
(21:26:35) stickster: Besides, we have open CVS already, commits list
etc. for that reason
(21:26:36) megacoder: Leaving it open will require that all the content
be clearly marked as DRAFT documents-in-training.
(21:26:38) elliss: Well, either way there ought to be warnings
"untested, break and keep both pieces, file bugs in bugzilla".
(21:26:54) Sopwith: Well, yes, those markings ought to be there anyways.
(21:27:07) quaid: I see there being an ethical problem with raw docs,
that it is never clear they are raw, despite admonitions. Code breaks,
but docs don't necc. break.
(21:27:38) elliss: Use a different stylesheet.
(21:27:47) Sopwith: It's open source. Release early, release often -
that's what it's all about. :)
(21:27:50) quaid: watermarks
(21:27:53) stickster: elliss: I was just about to say that
(21:27:53) stickster: :-)
(21:28:22) quaid: can we make this a specific target in the Makefile,
'make draft'
(21:28:26) stickster: Sopwith: yeah, but the difference is like putting
all the testing stuff in something marked "Try Me!" without a rawhide
(21:28:30) quaid: and it builds all targets, so stickster's script can
call that for Sopwith's script?
(21:28:37) megacoder: We can to anything if we know how. How?
(21:28:49) Sopwith: quaid: Yea, if you add the 'make draft' targets,
it's easy to change the script.
(21:28:52) quaid: well, that's the next step
(21:28:57) quaid: another stylesheet
(21:29:15) ***quaid looks around for the army of interns
(21:29:21) megacoder: Wait! Since it has only the HTML files, a CSS
change should be all that's needed.
(21:29:37) megacoder: That doesn't involve the makefile does it?
(21:29:40) quaid: ok, that works for now
(21:29:44) quaid: well
(21:29:53) quaid: something needs to choose the build with the alt. CSS?
(21:30:09) quaid: it's the same as the HTML build, diff fedora-draft.css
(21:30:23) quaid: which can be a copy of the original that we start
tweaking soonest
(21:30:52) quaid: but ultimately, wouldn't it be nice to have a draft
target that build PDF's with /DRAFT/ watermarks on it/
(21:31:01) G2: yeah.
(21:31:31) elliss: I'd prefer not to allow downloads...
(21:31:45) quaid: of?
(21:31:53) elliss: Drafts
(21:32:02) elliss: They don't expire...
(21:32:08) quaid: how do you get editors to read them/
(21:32:11) quaid: ah, interesting
(21:32:39) quaid: but CVS is open & etc.
(21:32:55) stickster: elliss: If they're marked, what's the difference?
(21:33:25) megacoder: We need a "tainted" flag, like the kernel.
(21:33:28) elliss: What quaid said, really, about admonitions not being
(21:33:38) elliss: A Draft could be wrong
(21:33:43) elliss: and often are
(21:33:50) quaid: yes, wickedly wrong
(21:34:05) quaid: an intentionally incorrect draft is more dangerous and
harder to detect
(21:34:07) quaid: than the same in code
(21:34:12) elliss: On a website we can insert feedback links
(21:34:24) elliss: And make bad text magically disappear
(21:34:30) quaid: nuances and promises can be written into the fabric of
the words ... like ... like ... like a Clive Barker story
(21:34:33) stickster: Who is going to give someone CVS access here who
would intentionally screw up docs?
(21:34:47) ***quaid just slipt into paranoia mode, sorry
(21:34:50) stickster: I guess they could take the source and publish it
elsewhere -- but can't people do that with any of our stuff?
(21:34:52) quaid: stickster: forget intentional :)
(21:35:06) stickster: I think the CSS "draft" marking would be totally
(21:35:15) quaid: but, a compromised account
(21:35:18) stickster: If we're going to open 
(21:35:20) stickster: oops
(21:35:23) quaid: and a defacing of content at fp.o/docs
(21:35:40) quaid: are two steps away as it now stands
(21:36:02) quaid: what if a shoulder surfer at a cafe catches the login
of a translator into CVS, etc.
(21:36:12) elliss: We can fix pages on a server
(21:36:13) quaid: this is why we build some level of layers, human
(21:36:29) elliss: And packaged docs
(21:36:38) elliss: Loose files are more problematic
(21:36:45) stickster: I've come to think that worrying about the docs to
this extent is counter-productive
(21:36:58) quaid: ah, well
(21:37:07) megacoder: Agreed
(21:37:09) quaid: can't tell if this is a 'no carseats in front of the
airbag' or
(21:37:27) stickster: If we had a full suite of pristine, beautiful docs
that everyone loved and cherished, this would be worth while to spin our
wheels on
(21:37:31) quaid: 'be careful of the twigs, you might sprain your ankle'
(21:37:37) BobJensen: I still say block google to reduce public use of
the rawhide docs, those that come looking would be ok but allowing
google is like advertising
(21:37:43) stickster: quaid: disco on #2, methinks
(21:37:46) quaid: stickster: our job is to assume we are going to have
(21:37:53) megacoder: Meddle not in the affairs of wizards for they are
subtle and quick to anger
(21:38:35) quaid: "Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are
crunchy and chewy and taste good with ketchup."
(21:39:14) quaid: consensus about robots.txt for raw docs?
(21:39:37) quaid: +1
(21:39:44) elliss: Yes, until we have stylesheet/big warning signs on
the top page
(21:39:55) megacoder: User-agent: * // Disallow: /
(21:40:04) stickster: megacoder: :-)
(21:40:37) quaid: any nays?
(21:40:42) stickster: elliss is right, until we have CSS change
(21:40:57) elliss: I would be for it after that
(21:41:03) quaid: Sopwith: can you put a full disallow in the root
of /docs on webtest and going forward, until we have at least a
fedora-draft.css in place?
(21:41:29) quaid: if we choose to post PDFs, we need to at least have a
draft stylesheet for that _first_
(21:42:13) stickster: right-o
(21:42:39) quaid: megacoder: I forgot to ask, have you heard anything
about the xmlto changes to support ... Saxon iirc
(21:42:43) elliss: I'd rather use packages than individual PDFs if
(21:42:44) ***quaid is slow
(21:42:52) elliss: So that we can obsolete them
(21:42:59) megacoder: No feedback from T Waugh, if that's what you mean.
(21:43:15) quaid: ok
(21:43:16) stickster: elliss: TR and I are working on that issue
(21:43:20) quaid: couldn't remember what the next step was on that
(21:43:25) stickster: It will happen
(21:43:29) elliss: stickster: I know
(21:43:29) quaid: aside about the packaging
(21:43:44) quaid: sorry we haven't had any word from the @redhat.com
folks, who I asked to weigh in with thoughts about packaging.
(21:43:54) quaid: same hurdles, maybe the same packages (one day), so it
makes sense to coordinate now
(21:44:15) stickster: To do automated builds with meaningful package
headers (as well as content) we need certain tools to work right
(21:44:18) quaid: so, if you see jlaska or mrj when they are tackleable,
I'd appreciate you helping them remain in the loop.
(21:44:29) quaid: stickster: which ones?
(21:44:30) stickster: We are piecing together that puzzle
(21:44:35) quaid: ok
(21:44:41) stickster: We are now working on this xmlstarlet issue
(21:44:45) stickster: Hope to have it in FE shortly
(21:45:14) stickster: Then it comes down to a package design problem,
we're probably 40% there at least in terms of clarifying the issue
(21:45:30) ***quaid notices that the branching docs that stickster did
for the wiki cover a priority three item that's been floating.
(21:45:31) stickster: We are trying to do it on list, so there's nothing
keeping people from pitching in
(21:45:52) stickster: kudos to ignacio for allowing us to step in to
help with xmlstarlet
(21:45:57) quaid: stickster: I know, sorry about the silence from this
side of the playground
(21:46:10) stickster: 's OK, didn't mean anyone in particular :-)
(21:46:31) quaid: busy-ness comes in waves around ol' Red Hat, it seems
(21:46:43) quaid: ok, I'm adding a new priority 1 item about the
(21:47:15) stickster: I think it's on the list at P2 now, you may be
able to move it up
(21:47:39) stickster: I think maybe a Wiki page on the issue would help
us keep the ducks in a row -- I will try and put something up shortly
when I get a Round Tuit
(21:47:44) quaid: ah, ok
(21:47:57) ***quaid is looking in wiki edit mode
(21:48:08) quaid: I cannot believe I am actually trying to help _more_
people use a wiki interface
(21:48:25) quaid: "I'm an environmentalist and a petroleum engineer."
(21:48:37) BobJensen: lol
(21:48:43) Sonar_Guy: hehe
(21:49:13) megacoder: "I'm with the Gary Glitter Babysitting Service."
(21:49:21) stickster: come to the dark side, quaid 
(21:49:28) stickster: *everybody's* doing it
(21:49:35) stickster: It will make you feeeeel goooooood....
(21:49:42) ***quaid mainlines some crude
(21:49:59) avatraxiom: lol
(21:50:26) G2: dear me
(21:50:44) stickster: "quaid roared... and he rampaged... and he got
bloody satisfaction... and when he arrives at his final destination, he
is going to kill the wiki."
(21:51:14) BobJensen: and EvilBob will back him
(21:51:16) ***stickster smacks self to stop the madness
(21:51:24) quaid: G2: please don't be shocked, I can explain it all ...
I'm just from California, see ...
(21:52:24) quaid: ok, task moved up in priority
(21:52:30) quaid: I set a 'FC5 test2?" date for it
(21:53:30) quaid: so, I have to pause to say again, congrats on the
release notes beats
(21:54:08) quaid: I was totally stoked when I took "just an hour honey"
on Saturday morning, and that was really true.
(21:56:33) quaid: so, uh
(21:56:40) quaid: I have a question
(21:56:45) elliss: Will the translations ship with test1 ISOs ?
(21:56:51) quaid: \yes
(21:56:54) elliss: Cool
(21:56:56) ***quaid holds his question
(21:57:01) quaid: I mean, aiui :)
(21:57:34) quaid: I sent off the "go ahead, use make html-nochunks" to
Sopwith on Saturday
(21:57:46) quaid: so the question
(21:57:58) G2: go on
(21:58:08) quaid: how long do we want to hold open the Wiki version of
the release notes before final release of a test or GA?
(21:58:22) quaid: in our schedule, it shows 24 hours before the release,
we take a snapshot
(21:58:36) quaid: that to me means, we are promising all beat writers
that they have that long to get changes in
(21:58:56) quaid: which is good, mether and Bob-Laptop got changes in on
Sunday, and maybe Monday, that were useful
(21:59:06) quaid: crucial? no, but a test of what we can do.
(21:59:39) elliss: It seems to allow little margin for problems, though
(21:59:46) quaid: but it puts a strain on the scheduling with the rest
of engineering, in that we need to remain totally flexible, or freeze at
an arbitrary date of N-1, knowing that N could move out +Y days
(22:00:12) quaid: elliss: true, and right now the conversion is manual
therefore a total PITA in the time frame
(22:00:20) quaid: but if it's worth it, I'll continue to do it
(22:00:38) ***quaid pauses to listen
(22:00:58) quaid: I'm about to get swooped into a meeting, but if anyone
wants to continue along these lines
(22:01:09) elliss: AIUI, There were X.org until the last minute
(22:01:10) stickster: I've gotta take a powder
(22:01:19) G2: how long does it take?
(22:01:29) stickster: Good meeting, bye all
(22:01:38) BobJensen: elliss, Yes getting the corerect information was
not as esay as I expected
(22:01:40) quaid: </meeting>


Stuart Ellis

stuart elsn org

Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/

GPG key ID: 7098ABEA
GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E  9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA

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