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IRC log 13-Sep-2005 meeting



Sep 13 13:05:13 <quaid>	<meeting>
Sep 13 13:05:27 <quaid>	so, uh, I didn't do a great job of getting the
previous actions into the task list yet
Sep 13 13:05:41 <quaid>	so I thought we'd roll down the current list and
update it, and then add items, by priority
Sep 13 13:05:49 <quaid>	we'll go as far down the list as we can today,
by priority.
Sep 13 13:06:00 <quaid>	just a quick overview of what this small change
means:
Sep 13 13:06:17 <quaid>	for the next three meetings or so, I am going to
try out the method that everyone-but-me uses for running project
meetings :)
Sep 13 13:06:18 <G2>	k
Sep 13 13:06:30 <quaid>	if it works for us, or needs adjusting, that's
cool
Sep 13 13:06:44 <quaid>	I do sort of feel that the continuity of tasks
is not good, and the visibility could be better, so this could solve
that.
Sep 13 13:07:04 <quaid>	mether poked me about it last week, and I gave
it some thought and see merit, so let's roll with it for now.
Sep 13 13:07:11 <G2>	Yeah, I like seeing the tasks on the wiki.
Sep 13 13:07:12 <quaid>
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/FedoraDocsSchedule
Sep 13 13:07:41 <quaid>	nman64: how do you span columns in the MoinMoin
table code? || || ?
Sep 13 13:08:06 <G2>	I don't see my name there.
Sep 13 13:08:20 <quaid>	G2: many recent tasks are not on there
Sep 13 13:08:23 <quaid>	s/many/most/
Sep 13 13:08:47 <G2>	Well, that's mainly because I've been doing not
very much lately :(
Sep 13 13:09:15 <quaid>	G2: update the page now, you are there :)
Sep 13 13:09:28 <quaid>	you are doing beat writer recruiting
Sep 13 13:09:42 <quaid>	ok, to the top
Sep 13 13:09:49 <quaid>	"Define how tasks are tracked"
Sep 13 13:10:21 <quaid>	http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Tasks
is the page that came from that
Sep 13 13:10:29 <quaid>	it now needs to include the tracking of tasks
through the wiki
Sep 13 13:10:54 <quaid>	any comments on that page? is that task
completed?  other thoughts?
Sep 13 13:11:35 <G2>	Looks good
Sep 13 13:11:42 -->	megacoder
(n=reynolds adsl-065-005-229-109 sip lft bellsouth net) has joined
#fedora-docs
Sep 13 13:11:44 <elliss>	Wiki Docs are kind of self-defining in this
context
Sep 13 13:12:11 <megacoder>	hi, gang.  Better late than never, I guess.
Sep 13 13:12:18 <quaid>	megacoder: welcome
Sep 13 13:12:37 *	mrj has added *all* the docbook inlines to xmlformat-
fdp.conf
Sep 13 13:12:39 <quaid>	megacoder: I was just pointing all at
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/FedoraDocsSchedule and saying
that for the next few meetings we are going to have this drive the
agenda
Sep 13 13:13:08 <quaid>	to see if we like that :)
Sep 13 13:13:27 <G2>	I am going to have to duck out. I'll check the
Schedule in the morning and I'll be on IRC. Also got to clear lots on
RPMs in the morning too. Sorry guys. Poke me for jobs tomorrow. Night.
Sep 13 13:13:53 <quaid>	G2: night
Sep 13 13:13:59 <quaid>	watch that wiki page :)
Sep 13 13:14:28 <mether>	quaid, you got any suggestions on
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=158391
Sep 13 13:14:59 <quaid>	mether: maybe after the meeting
Sep 13 13:16:11 <quaid>	moving on
Sep 13 13:16:31 <quaid>	mrj and megacoder: what is the status on Saxon
and FOP and gcj?
Sep 13 13:16:57 <mrj>	no work on building saxon or fop with gcj from me
Sep 13 13:17:08 <mrj>	maybe in a month...
Sep 13 13:18:10 <quaid>	is this still a priority 1?  a gating issue for
FDP?
Sep 13 13:18:55 <elliss>	It does impact on distributing docs
Sep 13 13:19:50 <elliss>	Since currently the only ways to get docs are
tarballs and building from CVS
Sep 13 13:20:04 <quaid>	do we need another Java developer to help?
Sep 13 13:20:11 <quaid>	elliss: and HTML!
Sep 13 13:20:23 <megacoder>	AFAIK, we don't have  _any_ java folk active
now.
Sep 13 13:20:23 <elliss>	Tarball = zipped HTML
Sep 13 13:20:27 <quaid>	oh, right
Sep 13 13:20:38 <quaid>	megacoder: s/another/a/ then :)
Sep 13 13:20:53 <megacoder>	I've exceeded my java capabilities already.
Sep 13 13:21:39 <quaid>	ok, let's look for some Java help, someone to
compile these and preferably package them in Extras
Sep 13 13:22:29 <mether>	post to fedora java devel list?
Sep 13 13:22:41 <quaid>	yep
Sep 13 13:23:09 <quaid>	megacoder: can you do a summary our situation
and/or a request to the Fedora java devel list?
Sep 13 13:23:27 <quaid>	I'll take that and circulate it amongst internal
Java list(s) for folks not reading the Fedora one actively.
Sep 13 13:23:29 <megacoder>	yup, I can do that.
Sep 13 13:24:06 <quaid>	ok, that's it for now on that
Sep 13 13:24:11 <megacoder>	POint me to the java list?
Sep 13 13:24:18 <quaid>	f-java-devel-l?
Sep 13 13:24:19 *	quaid looks
Sep 13 13:24:39 <megacoder>	found it
Sep 13 13:24:47 <megacoder>	nay, nah! I won.
Sep 13 13:24:56 <quaid>	:)
Sep 13 13:25:00 *	quaid missed with his guess
Sep 13 13:25:01 <mether>	http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-
devel-java-list/
Sep 13 13:25:22 <mether>	quaid, java team requested that and was
incorrectly assigned this name
Sep 13 13:25:34 <quaid>	ah, jeez
Sep 13 13:25:35 <mether>	quaid, perl team got the name as requested. so
its a mess ;-)
Sep 13 13:25:47 <quaid>	java team should have just pushed it back up
Sep 13 13:25:56 <quaid>	I've had mailing lists fat fingered before, 
Sep 13 13:25:58 <megacoder>	I'm subscribing now.
Sep 13 13:26:04 <mether>	anyway it is what it is
Sep 13 13:26:07 <quaid>	yep
Sep 13 13:26:19 <quaid>	on to FDP staging server
Sep 13 13:26:45 <quaid>	let's see ... I know I sent email to Sopwith and
skvidal before elliot's vacation, have to look for status, one sec.
Sep 13 13:27:34 <quaid>	bah, slow stuff
Sep 13 13:27:57 <quaid>	basic status is, talked with Elliot, basic
concept is agreed upon
Sep 13 13:28:13 <mether>	good good
Sep 13 13:29:04 <quaid>	ok, yeah, there is hardware we can use, and he
likes the idea of "rawhide of docs", so he understands what we are
trying to do.
Sep 13 13:29:11 <quaid>	I'll get back to Elliot and see where we are on
this.
Sep 13 13:30:09 <quaid>	on to trans process
Sep 13 13:30:22 <quaid>	we are a bit stalled right now with the
infrastructure, i.e., where do translations go
Sep 13 13:30:32 <quaid>	I'm trying to move the emails from private to
one of the fedora lists
Sep 13 13:31:00 <quaid>	anyway, Elliot and Bernd Groh (tech lead for
trans team) are working on this together, so it will get done
Sep 13 13:31:23 <quaid>	and we'll surely have the staging server
delivering all available languages in all output formats we can make
Sep 13 13:32:05 <quaid>	megacoder has agreed to do the Makefile and we
have agreed how it is best to appear in the directories, as e.g. foo-
es.xml next to foo-en.xml
Sep 13 13:32:13 <quaid>	anything missing here?
Sep 13 13:32:57 <megacoder>	Some translators want to work with PO files.
Anybody have a practique for using PO files with XML?
Sep 13 13:33:21 <quaid>	megacoder: the trans team, aiui, has tools for
that
Sep 13 13:33:31 <quaid>	xml2po and then po2xml, iirc
Sep 13 13:33:47 <quaid>	and they use kbabel to work the PO files
Sep 13 13:33:58 <quaid>	s/they/some/
Sep 13 13:34:04 <megacoder>	So, do we just need to accept their finished
"foo-de.xml" file and let them deal with the PO's?
Sep 13 13:34:09 <quaid>	exactly
Sep 13 13:34:30 <quaid>	we output foo-en.xml and accept foo-xy.xml and
that's it
Sep 13 13:34:36 <quaid>	the rest is on the translation processes to take
care of
Sep 13 13:34:45 <quaid>	oh, of course we make room in the schedule for
all this :)
Sep 13 13:35:08 <quaid>	if any translators come asking for help with the
trans tools, we can surely try, but it's not our purview.
Sep 13 13:36:02 *	quaid saves a copy of
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/FedoraDocsSchedule
Sep 13 13:36:25 <quaid>	anything else on the trans process?
Sep 13 13:37:43 <mether>	is the process for translators documented?
Sep 13 13:37:55 <quaid>	probably not :)
Sep 13 13:38:20 <mether>	we need a NewTranslators page prolly
Sep 13 13:38:35 <quaid>	OK, I added the need to document to the task
Sep 13 13:38:44 <quaid>	feel free to clone and fix up NewWriters, if you
wish :)(
Sep 13 13:38:56 <quaid>	ok, on to "Recruit for beat writers"
Sep 13 13:39:06 <quaid>	G2 correctly wiped the slate clean the other day
Sep 13 13:39:16 <quaid>
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/ReleaseNotes/Beats
Sep 13 13:39:47 <quaid>	this is inline with what we agreed upon for FC4,
that none of you were beholden to continue in the role
Sep 13 13:40:10 <quaid>	so, first item -- if you want to continue in
your beat writer role, please add your name back to the page
Sep 13 13:40:28 <quaid>	note, though, that this is now an assignment,
you have to keep it until you proactively pass it on.
Sep 13 13:40:46 <mether>	how about a option to sign up more permanently
Sep 13 13:41:04 <quaid>	so, you'll see that in the recruiting run I did
recently, I got one bite, Jens Petersen suggested a new category and, at
my proding, agreed to supply the content via Wiki.
Sep 13 13:41:05 <mether>	yeah right. you answered me already
Sep 13 13:41:27 <quaid>	mether: so, yeah, if you want to continue to do
packaging, awesome, great, please :)
Sep 13 13:41:57 <mether>	quaid, would like to the tools RHEL people use
to get the package listings
Sep 13 13:42:00 <mether>	quaid, and diffs
Sep 13 13:42:27 <quaid>	mether: you can, sopwith is a great resource for
that
Sep 13 13:42:42 <mether>	quaid, yeah ok. i will bug him
Sep 13 13:42:49 <quaid>	mether: this is where being inside helps, you
can get a shell on a machine to run the package diff tools against the
CVS.
Sep 13 13:43:10 <quaid>	ok, so, g2 is going to help me with recruiting
Sep 13 13:43:28 <megacoder>	N.B., the Java help solicitation is hitting
the wires about now.
Sep 13 13:43:29 <quaid>	as part of that, I'm going to contact a few
people, such as sopwith and gregdek_gone, to beg for help in pressuring
developers to put up content or writers.
Sep 13 13:43:39 <quaid>	megacoder: sweet
Sep 13 13:44:02 <megacoder>	Well, if I do it immediately, I don't have
to remember to do it...
Sep 13 13:44:04 <quaid>	we now own the relnotes, so we can't get
haughty, take our XML, and go home.
Sep 13 13:44:38 <quaid>	but, IMNSHO, the developers actually are
responsible for providing the "note(s)" that we turn into the the
"release notes"
Sep 13 13:44:57 <quaid>	so, I'm going to turn to them to provide
themselves or somebody from their project to do this work.
Sep 13 13:45:10 <quaid>	how does this sound?
Sep 13 13:45:34 <elliss>	better relnotes = fewer unnecessary bug reports
Sep 13 13:45:46 <quaid>	yep
Sep 13 13:46:11 <elliss>	It's very much up to the developers to push the
raw info, I feel
Sep 13 13:46:22 <quaid>	also, we've gone a long way towards making the
relnotes more user friendly
Sep 13 13:46:26 <quaid>	elliss: +1
Sep 13 13:46:39 <quaid>	and they will, sometimes, at our prodding, with
lots of nagmails, and that's how it's usually done
Sep 13 13:46:44 <quaid>	but filtered through one writer, which we cannot
do
Sep 13 13:47:07 <quaid>	now they need to supply the maintainer, who
doesn't need to be a writer, but can at least compile the content and
make some sense of it :)
Sep 13 13:48:08 <megacoder>	While that sounds good, do we have any real
example of someone doing that?
Sep 13 13:48:19 <quaid>	so far, only Jens Petersen :)
Sep 13 13:48:33 <quaid>	megacoder: do you mean in other projects etc?
like Debian, Gentoo?
Sep 13 13:48:37 <megacoder>	Shoot, you called my bluff
Sep 13 13:49:08 <quaid>	I haven't looked, but I'm sure that
developer.mozilla.org has a high level of Wiki hands-on help from
developers for relnotes.
Sep 13 13:49:34 <quaid>	nman64: can you help me to figure out a sane way
to layout the relnotes in the Wiki?
Sep 13 13:50:21 <quaid>	nman64: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki?
action=fullsearch&context=180&value=fedoradocs%
2Freleasenotes&titlesearch=Titles was how someone did them before
Sep 13 13:50:34 <quaid>	which was unwieldy, but he was using some
scripts iirc
Sep 13 13:51:25 <quaid>	if we have a good format for accepting content,
we can skip the bug report stuff and have people put stuff in raw Wiki
Sep 13 13:51:57 <quaid>	ok, I'm done with this topic
Sep 13 13:52:04 <quaid>	what else are priority 1 items that should be in
here?
Sep 13 13:52:18 <elliss>	Q: Does this supercede the *docs* CVS tag
idea ?
Sep 13 13:52:36 <quaid>	parts of the same process
Sep 13 13:53:08 <quaid>	so, project developers use the CVS tag and
bugzilla component to organize a group of stuff that needs to be
documented somehow
Sep 13 13:53:25 <quaid>	that is all seen by the relnotes@ people, so the
beat writer gets to sort it out, and make sure it's all on the Wiki
Sep 13 13:58:12 <quaid>	final point, I need to find out from Sopwith if
the script is truly ready to rock
Sep 13 13:58:19 <quaid>	and get him to use **docs** instead, yes?
Sep 13 13:59:35 <elliss>	<docs> [docs] #glorious-docs#
Sep 13 14:00:22 <elliss>	The ** character is probably best :)
Sep 13 14:00:36 <quaid>	yeah
Sep 13 14:00:48 <quaid>	it's common enough kind of way to **NOTE**
something
Sep 13 14:01:07 <quaid>	ok, I'm going to finish adding in tasks from old
minutes and save this Wiki page
Sep 13 14:01:46 <quaid>	tcf: I want to add the book publishing into this
page, as well
Sep 13 14:02:00 <megacoder>	I don't like the "*" character.  At least
the [] pair doesn't require a shift key.
Sep 13 14:02:06 <quaid>	tcf: I thought I replied to Linda, but I can't
find a reply, so perhaps I never sent it and it was lost during an Evo
non-recovery
Sep 13 14:02:38 <quaid>	megacoder: goddamn! but I'm happy we have a
cranky UNIX keyboarder around these parts
Sep 13 14:03:08 <quaid>	right, good point, we want to _increase_ usage
by making it as easy as possible
Sep 13 14:03:13 <megacoder>	WHO SAYS I'M CRABBY!!!! TAKE THAT BACK,
WORM!
Sep 13 14:03:44 <tcf>	quaid: great, sounds good
Sep 13 14:03:47 <quaid>	no, no, cranky as in "my keyboard is so old I
have to crank it up before I use it"
Sep 13 14:03:55 <BobJensen>	lol
Sep 13 14:05:48 <megacoder>	Megaflops? My brain has a DC clock...
Sep 13 14:12:36 <quaid>	</meeting>
-- 
Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/
gpg fingerprint:  2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115    5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41   
                       Red Hat SELinux Guide
http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/

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