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IRC log FDSCo 20 Sep 2005

Sep 20 13:06:14 <quaid>	<meeting>
Sep 20 13:06:44 <quaid>	hi folks
Sep 20 13:06:45 <G2>	Hello all
Sep 20 13:06:52 <stickster>	hi
Sep 20 13:07:02 <G2>	brb
Sep 20 13:07:04 <quaid>
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Schedule fyi
Sep 20 13:07:19 <quaid>	I'm editing it live, and will do some iterative
saves throughout
Sep 20 13:07:23 <quaid>	oh, wait
Sep 20 13:07:25 <quaid>	wrong page :)
Sep 20 13:07:49 <quaid>
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/FedoraDocsSchedule fyi
Sep 20 13:09:32 -->	megacoder
(n=reynolds adsl-065-005-229-109 sip lft bellsouth net) has joined
Sep 20 13:09:32 <stickster>	Hang on, brb
Sep 20 13:10:17 ---	mu_revenge is now known as mumumu_ee
Sep 20 13:10:18 *	quaid settles into his desk char
Sep 20 13:11:16 <quaid>	I think the first item is done
Sep 20 13:11:45 <quaid>	oh, no, it's not, but I'll do it by the end of
the meeting
Sep 20 13:12:28 <quaid>	on the second, Tommy sent out his request ...
Sep 20 13:12:44 <quaid>	I wasn't impressed with the answers, in that no
one stepped up to go all the way
Sep 20 13:13:02 <quaid>	docs toolchain must be low on the list of
Sep 20 13:13:43 <quaid>	megacoder: I'm expending all my politicapital
this week on the relnotes beats, so I'm going to move the target date up
a week to give me a chance to recover
Sep 20 13:13:49 <megacoder>	The silence was resounding.
Sep 20 13:14:00 <elliss>	Perhaps try an external list
Sep 20 13:14:11 <quaid>	external to Fedora?
Sep 20 13:14:17 <elliss>	Yes
Sep 20 13:14:28 <megacoder>	Such as?
Sep 20 13:14:37 <quaid>	hard to get more gcj expertise than RH has
Sep 20 13:15:06 <elliss>	DocBook > PDF must be a real world issue
Sep 20 13:15:25 <quaid>	http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-
java-list/2005-September/msg00015.html is the thread, btw
Sep 20 13:15:40 <elliss>	I've spoken to someone who still uses SGML for
their apps because of it
Sep 20 13:17:15 <elliss>	Perhaps try: http://www.oasis-
Sep 20 13:17:30 <quaid>	actually, yeah
Sep 20 13:17:39 <elliss>	Rather than a Java specific list
Sep 20 13:19:10 <quaid>	docbook-apps ist he one mrj usually recommends
Sep 20 13:19:43 <quaid>	it's where the techies talk
Sep 20 13:19:57 <G2>	Yeah, this is a real issue. What do Samba do, as
when I helped tag up the Amanda docs to Docbook, Stefan used the Samba
build tree to generate the PDFs
Sep 20 13:20:45 <quaid>	megacoder: can you email docbook-apps and track
the thread?  You don't need to subscribe, just use the online archives,
and I'm subscribed to help the conversation along.
Sep 20 13:21:08 <megacoder>	ok, will beg again.
Sep 20 13:21:19 <quaid>	thx
Sep 20 13:21:43 <elliss>	Just looked at Samba docs page:
Sep 20 13:22:03 <elliss>	They are offering PDFs of daily builds
Sep 20 13:22:17 <quaid>	we will soon :)
Sep 20 13:22:31 <elliss>	So like G2 says, they presumably have a
automated system in place
Sep 20 13:22:35 <quaid>	Sopwith has the autobuild on his to-do list, and
we just need to get the PDF working
Sep 20 13:23:00 <quaid>	G2: what are they using? SGML and jadetex?
Sep 20 13:23:18 <G2>	elliss: I tried porting some of our docs, but the
build failed. THey use some kind of hybrid system
Sep 20 13:23:30 <G2>	let me check my AManda archive
Sep 20 13:23:33 <G2>	2 secs
Sep 20 13:23:46 <tcf>	the PDFs on http://www.samba.org/samba/docs/ say
they are generated from LaTeX with hyperref package
Sep 20 13:23:53 <tcf>	are you sure they are written in DocBook XML?
Sep 20 13:24:26 <G2>	I tagged them
Sep 20 13:24:29 <G2>	Amanda that is
Sep 20 13:24:39 <quaid>	probably does a db2tex
Sep 20 13:24:39 <tcf>	ah, ok, maybe they are moving that way then
Sep 20 13:24:52 <tcf>	quaid: maybe so
Sep 20 13:25:06 <G2>	http://www.amanda.org/docs/using.html
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Sep 20 13:25:28 2005

**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Sep 20 13:25:33 2005

Sep 20 13:25:33 -->	You are now talking on #fedora-docs
Sep 20 13:25:33 ---	Topic for #fedora-docs is Fedora Documentation
Project -=- Discussions between writers, editors, and developers about
documentation -=- For end-user support, use #fedora -=-
http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -=- Interested in documentation?
Sep 20 13:25:33 ---	Topic for #fedora-docs set by quaid at Mon Aug 15
09:51:32 2005
Sep 20 13:25:37 <quaid>	I hate X-chat
Sep 20 13:25:41 <quaid>	I really doooooo!
Sep 20 13:26:06 <quaid>	ok, moving on
Sep 20 13:26:23 <quaid>	in that, I don't want to trudge down another
sidepath for tools
Sep 20 13:26:32 <quaid>	I really really really want us to be on the main
Sep 20 13:27:30 *	quaid makes a note to contact agreen about this, too
Sep 20 13:28:14 <quaid>	I'm removing the target date on the
staging/autobuild server until we hear more from Sopwith 
Sep 20 13:28:31 <Sopwith>	Yea
Sep 20 13:28:38 <Sopwith>	I am really backlogged at this point.
Sep 20 13:28:40 <quaid>	I'm also removing the codename, it just got
usurped in my life, and we aren't really using it anyway
Sep 20 13:28:55 <G2>	Here's the Makefile for the Docs tree that Amanda
and Samba use: http://www.perl.me.uk/Makefile
Sep 20 13:29:06 <G2>	Looks like latex and all sorts
Sep 20 13:29:12 <quaid>	yeek
Sep 20 13:29:13 <quaid>	yeah
Sep 20 13:29:28 <quaid>	*shudder*
Sep 20 13:29:44 <G2>	xsltproc and pngs in their PDFs!!!!
Sep 20 13:29:50 *	G2 drools
Sep 20 13:30:08 <tcf>	G2: pdfetex was used to generate the PDF FWIW
Sep 20 13:30:20 <G2>	k
Sep 20 13:30:52 <G2>	Can't we steel ideas from their build tree?
Sep 20 13:31:08 <G2>	s/steel/steal
Sep 20 13:31:15 <quaid>	yes
Sep 20 13:31:26 <quaid>	but see above comments about paths
Sep 20 13:31:26 <G2>	And they do Plucker format too
Sep 20 13:31:36 <stickster>	I don't see why not -- they're doing
xsltproc to go to latex, then pdflatex to make the pdf's -- I'm not good
at reading Makefiles, so sue me :-)
Sep 20 13:31:48 <stickster>	At least, I think that's what they're
Sep 20 13:31:48 <G2>	quaid: ?
Sep 20 13:31:54 <quaid>	we are trying to use DocBook as close to the way
that DocBook developers are doing it.
Sep 20 13:32:07 <G2>	quaid: Can they build PDFs?
Sep 20 13:32:09 <quaid>	the mainline direction is Saxon and FOP
Sep 20 13:32:17 <stickster>	Hm
Sep 20 13:32:24 <quaid>	sure, because they are not dedicated to FLOSS
Sep 20 13:32:44 <quaid>	so they use a proprietary XSL-FO engine
Sep 20 13:32:46 <stickster>	I don't understand how reliance on Java is
dedication to FOSS, but maybe that's just me
Sep 20 13:33:00 <quaid>	stickster: that's why we're trying to use gcj
Sep 20 13:33:08 <quaid>	it compiles fun under other JREs
Sep 20 13:33:15 <G2>	Of course, I forgot.
Sep 20 13:33:32 <quaid>	stickster: I know about the wider issues of
Java, but ... 
Sep 20 13:33:39 <quaid>	s/fun/fine/
Sep 20 13:33:41 <G2>	I remember though, in the days of RH7.2, PDF
generation worked
Sep 20 13:33:46 <quaid>	yep
Sep 20 13:33:53 <G2>	What changed?
Sep 20 13:33:55 <quaid>	and we did the RHEL 4 docs with SGML because of
Sep 20 13:34:06 <tcf>	G2: that was DocBook SGML
Sep 20 13:34:15 <G2>	Doh, aye that's right
Sep 20 13:34:17 <quaid>	yeah, XSLT is different
Sep 20 13:34:29 <G2>	I know the difference ;-) Just forgot
Sep 20 13:34:31 <quaid>	look, internally we're doing the same thing
Sep 20 13:34:39 <tcf>	yep, much better for ->XHTML production, not so
good for ->PDF
Sep 20 13:34:49 <quaid>	the difference is, we have the option of
compiling FOP using a proprietary JRE if we need to in order to make our
Sep 20 13:35:14 <quaid>	but, it's in RH's best interest overall to get
this stuff in Extras and compiling under gcj
Sep 20 13:35:19 <quaid>	I just need to make someone see that light
Sep 20 13:35:23 *	G2 senses quaid irritation and will stop ushing ;-)
Sep 20 13:35:30 <G2>	pushing rather
Sep 20 13:35:35 <quaid>	well, no, not irritation :)
Sep 20 13:35:40 <quaid>	but I think I see the line clearly
Sep 20 13:36:00 <quaid>	and I'm happy to reiterate it, or point at past
threads where we resolved this to my satisfaction
Sep 20 13:36:10 <quaid>	ok, a question then
Sep 20 13:36:15 <G2>	go one.
Sep 20 13:36:30 <quaid>	does anyone want to personally pursue one of
these alternate paths so we can get an interim solution in our
Sep 20 13:36:33 ---	mumumu_ee is now known as mu_furo_e
Sep 20 13:37:11 <quaid>	I'm sketchy about want to assign such a
resource, but if anyone wants to grab the GNOME tools and rework
them ... well, it's all GPL, right :)
Sep 20 13:37:36 <G2>	REmind me of the Gnome tools?
Sep 20 13:37:46 <stickster>	My plate is full
Sep 20 13:38:08 <quaid>	G2: sorry, samba
Sep 20 13:38:10 <quaid>	I meant
Sep 20 13:38:28 <quaid>	I'll leave the question hanging for now.
Sep 20 13:38:49 <tcf>	I would love to if I had time
Sep 20 13:38:57 <quaid>	if you all think I'm taking us blindly or
idiotically in the wrong direction, let's move this to the list
Sep 20 13:39:03 <tcf>	I've bookmarked everything just in case
Sep 20 13:39:03 <quaid>	talk about alternatives, etc.
Sep 20 13:39:16 <stickster>	ok
Sep 20 13:39:30 <quaid>	about the staging server, I'll see what I can do
to score Sopwith some help that he can use
Sep 20 13:39:56 <quaid>	on to trans :)
Sep 20 13:40:04 <quaid>	Tommy got the i18n version out, awesome
Sep 20 13:40:12 <G2>	Well done!!!!
Sep 20 13:40:20 <quaid>	translators are signing up for CVS in the onsie-
Sep 20 13:40:44 <G2>	no threesies ;-)
Sep 20 13:41:04 <quaid>	yeah, too bad
Sep 20 13:41:13 <G2>	Quick try of the Samba docs: compilation error:
file http://db2latex.sourceforge.net/xsl/qandaset.mod.xsl line 366
element template
Sep 20 13:41:30 <stickster>	I have no idea how I'm going to hook up RPM
building with the translation aspect
Sep 20 13:41:34 <G2>	Seen this before. I think I asked the docs project
about this last year
Sep 20 13:41:46 <quaid>	stickster: you don't have to, for the most part
Sep 20 13:41:54 <quaid>	stickster: at least, not for the first round
Sep 20 13:42:32 <quaid>	stickster: the relnotes are in fedora-release,
and we are going to put the IG in there too, right?  so it's not your
worry,just make sure the -de.html is there.
Sep 20 13:42:48 <quaid>	about trans, I need to find out what our
solution for CVS is going to be for FC5
Sep 20 13:43:13 <quaid>	I think we're going to use our CVS and move it
all to trans CVS later, like /cvs/docs to /cvs/trans
Sep 20 13:43:36 <quaid>	but their CVS is still on elvis.r.c and needs to
move to cvs.f.r.c
Sep 20 13:43:38 <quaid>	and etc.
Sep 20 13:43:56 <quaid>	downside is, we don't get to use their file
locking capabilities and automatic PO generation, etc.
Sep 20 13:44:10 <quaid>	so, it raises the bar on the translators, they
need to be savvy
Sep 20 13:45:10 *	quaid writes email to sarahs
Sep 20 13:45:45 <quaid>	recruit for beat writers
Sep 20 13:45:57 <quaid>	we've had two sign ups from the onslaught so far
Sep 20 13:46:03 <quaid>	today I'm going to pressure the project
Sep 20 13:46:31 <G2>	Shall I e-mail the Samba team to ask about using
their build tree for the time being? I can work out the technical
details sometime tomorrow, hopefully
Sep 20 13:46:57 <quaid>	you mean their actual build system?
Sep 20 13:47:20 <G2>	John is on the Open Source Consortium Executive
Council, as I am, so I can get hold of him direct.
Sep 20 13:47:24 <G2>	The docs
Sep 20 13:47:39 <G2>	Well, so could you guys probably too.
Sep 20 13:47:50 <quaid>	G2: do you mean, their servers grab from CVS, do
the builds, and make URLs available for us to mirror over?
Sep 20 13:48:02 <quaid>	or you mean, use their tree/tools on our
Sep 20 13:48:10 <G2>	quaid: tools.
Sep 20 13:48:21 <G2>	I remember Stefan asking them and getting
Sep 20 13:48:33 <quaid>	right, if we could all get local, working
versions, that would allow us to manually create and post them
Sep 20 13:48:36 <quaid>	which is better than nothing
Sep 20 13:48:52 <quaid>	are their tools non-free?
Sep 20 13:48:53 *	G2 didn't mean to sound stupid re the council
Sep 20 13:49:09 <quaid>	:D
Sep 20 13:49:12 <quaid>	nah, use your contacts :)
Sep 20 13:49:29 <G2>	quaid: no, but if I ask, I can get tips/help on the
conversion , like Stefan did
Sep 20 13:49:31 <G2>	brb
Sep 20 13:49:39 <quaid>	anyway, yeah, if we can get a free toolchain
that works on FC 3 and/or 4, that would help
Sep 20 13:51:05 <G2>	aye
Sep 20 13:51:31 *	G2 is not still doing pirate day talk, aye is a
Scotland thing ;-)
Sep 20 13:51:34 *	quaid sees the table is borken
Sep 20 13:51:41 <quaid>	aye
Sep 20 13:52:10 <quaid>	elliss: so, about MoinMoin output to DocBook ...
Sep 20 13:52:27 <quaid>	nman64 also has an installation and we can ask
him to run some tests for us ...
Sep 20 13:52:36 <quaid>	here's what our need is:
Sep 20 13:53:01 <quaid>	two days before trans freeze, we take a snapshot
of the Wiki, meaning we convert all of Docs/Beats.* into DocBook
Sep 20 13:53:23 <quaid>	what would be _awesome_ is if we could enough
lead time to generate a process or even some scripts that help automate
cleaning up the XML
Sep 20 13:54:43 <quaid>	so, if we had some samples of input and desired
output, megacoder could use some script-fu to chop the <article> and
other unecc. XML, run the xmlformat, and make available for us to use or
paste into the relnotes XML.
Sep 20 13:55:01 <G2>	sounds ambitious
Sep 20 13:55:05 <elliss>	It's pretty easy to produce samples manually
Sep 20 13:55:33 <elliss>	I've dropped source from FedoraWiki into my
laptop's MoinMoin install
Sep 20 13:55:46 <quaid>	cool
Sep 20 13:56:02 <quaid>	what you are doing with the admin guide is
probably a good example to use for now
Sep 20 13:56:25 <quaid>	can you output to XML and put the whole thing up
as a tarball somewhere, then post to f-docs-l?
Sep 20 13:57:12 <elliss>	admin guide is still a skeleton
Sep 20 13:57:38 <elliss>	I can yoink something like XenQuckstart in a
couple of minutes
Sep 20 13:58:00 <elliss>	I keep mentioning it because it's a prettry
good example
Sep 20 13:58:04 <elliss>	pretty
Sep 20 13:58:15 <elliss>	Though only single page of course
Sep 20 13:58:50 <elliss>	I'll post something and send a link to the list
Sep 20 13:59:38 <quaid>	oh, right, yeah, FedoraXenQuickstart or whatever
Sep 20 13:59:40 <quaid>	thx
Sep 20 14:00:06 <elliss>	Note that it's only DocBook fragment
Sep 20 14:00:30 <elliss>	The admonition things are particularly hideous,
as well :)
Sep 20 14:01:20 <elliss>	So manually tweaking is probably going to be
required to polish up anything from the Wiki
Sep 20 14:01:25 <quaid>	ok
Sep 20 14:01:42 <quaid>	but if it's consistently ugly, that's something
we can create first a process, then some scripts out of
Sep 20 14:01:55 <quaid>	wow, we made it to the end of priority 1 items
Sep 20 14:02:06 <quaid>	in only fifty real minutes
Sep 20 14:02:24 <quaid>	everyone, please review the rest of
Sep 20 14:02:45 <quaid>	see what you need to move stuff forward, change
the Wiki to reflect whatever, ask questions on list, etc.
Sep 20 14:02:53 <stickster>	I made a mockup .src.rpm for the install-
Sep 20 14:03:14 <tcf>	seems like some of the docs guide tasks could be
Sep 20 14:03:18 <quaid>	ya!
Sep 20 14:03:20 <stickster>	Definitely
Sep 20 14:03:31 *	quaid piled tasks in last week :)
Sep 20 14:03:58 <tcf>	let's continue the thread of docs guide updates on
the list and then we can figure out how to combine
Sep 20 14:04:31 <stickster>	k
Sep 20 14:04:32 <G2>	Sent e-mail to John Terpstra
Sep 20 14:05:10 *	quaid fixes the broken Wiki table
Sep 20 14:05:28 <quaid>	</meeting>

Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/
gpg fingerprint:  2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115    5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41   
                       Red Hat SELinux Guide

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