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FDSCo meeting 08 Aug 2006 IRC log



minutes-lite coming to f-docs-l in about a minit:

<quaid> <meeting>
<ghenry> we on for 10 then?
* quaid is chewing lunch
<quaid> stickster: all right, we fixed the chip and decided to skip the
crown work for the day :)
<stickster> quaid: neato
<stickster> Ready for a kickass meeting then?
<quaid> you bet
<stickster> WOOHOO!
<quaid> let's see who is here
<quaid> me, stickster 
<quaid> Eitch: ?
<stickster> ghenry: ?
* EvilBob waves
<quaid> ghenry I saw
<quaid> ok, that's good
<stickster> Sweet, I may have missed him while my wlan was giving me
fits
<ghenry> here
<stickster> :-)
<stickster> That's quorum, let's goferit
<quaid> so, i didn't get that agenda finished
<quaid> but instead will go and open the task schedule and ready for a
big edit
<quaid> to make it less scary
<quaid> one thing in the wind for short term is the web-only relnotes
<stickster> *nod
<stickster> Shall we start then?
<quaid> yeah
<stickster> booya
<quaid> oh, I thought we were started
<stickster> <meeting>
<quaid> :)
<stickster> heh
<stickster> Stickler for routine
<quaid> uh, actually, you are in a nested meeting now 
<quaid> but I won't be a stickler
<stickster> Oh darn it
<stickster> </meeting>
<stickster> I missed it, sorry
<stickster> You take a nap for one minute around here....
<quaid> ok, here's what I think is up in the world, tel lme what I
missed:
<quaid> 0. web relnotes
<quaid> 1. status on fp.o/wiki and other docbook wiki stuff
<quaid> 2. any news on the cms front?
<quaid> 3. improvements for trans process
<quaid> 4. packaging fun
<quaid> 5. anyone know what is up with gnu classpath and gcj and all
that?
<quaid> 6. AOB
<stickster> I would suggest axing #2 -- I believe there is no news there
to be had yet
<quaid> ok
<-- couf has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
<quaid> did test2 go out?
<stickster> Yup, torrents already flying
<stickster> I got a copy
<quaid> just for the fun of it, anyone have some time to work on that
after we meet?
<stickster> And served out several gigs too :-)
--- coufer is now known as couf
<quaid> EvilBob perhaps?
<stickster> I can
<stickster> Yeah, Bob!
<stickster> w00t
<quaid> I
<quaid> I'm here too
<f13> 'packaging fun' ?
<quaid> just a status check, see if there is anything we need to do
<f13> oh this is an agenda?
<quaid> we didn't get the FAQ resolved for example
<quaid> aye
<stickster> yup
<f13> right-o
* quaid is super ad-hoc these days
* f13 is in middle of Rel-eng summit and is a bit brain mushy
<stickster> It's a new you, I like it
<EvilBob> I will be available
<stickster> f13: lay off the sauce
<f13> mmm sauce
<stickster> To reiterate earlier feelings: FAQ in a package seems like
overkill to me, but if we do package it, let's do it separately from
relnotes
<quaid> uh, just to go in order and complete in one line
<stickster> Or, if we do, it needs to live in the same PO.  Nuff said.
<stickster> Oh, whoops
<quaid> we have the latest version of the MoinMoin running on a test
server, thanks mmcgrath++, and we're waiting for some pointers from
mvirkkil about when we should do another update against CVS.
<quaid> this was good, we've learned what packages are needed to be on
the machine, I think this supports our efforts to quickly update the
main Wiki when the DocBook code is finished.
<quaid> this would fix any number of other things and might cause us to
do ... well, I dunno, other stuff.
<EvilBob> Cool
<quaid> something to think about.
<stickster> Is this going to be part of mainline MM, or an add-on of
some sort?
<stickster> Any coordination needed with FE, or a maintainer?
<stickster> (I know that mvirkkil is working with upstream, I mean
Fedora specifically)
<quaid> mainline
<stickster> So it might be good to communicate any new requirements to
the FE maintainer of the moin package?
<quaid> the FE packager would just grab the latest from CVS, but we
should give them the heads up.
<quaid> uh, yeah :)
<stickster> right
<stickster> Looks like Matthias Saou
<quaid> how do we check who the maintainer in?
--> kanarip (i=kanarip fedora/kanarip) has joined #fedora-docs
<quaid> ojk
<stickster> Ooo, look how connected I am, it's *scary* :-D
<quaid> what is matthias' nick?
* stickster sits down in back of bus after quaid yells at him
<stickster> Oh man, what is this, stump stickster day?  dern it :-)
<stickster> Honestly, can't remember... might be matthias
<f13> thais
<stickster> there ya go, f13 always has the answers
<quaid> we can ask mmcgrath to make it part of the process for updating
the server, that's really FI's loop anyway
* quaid goes to add that to the ticket
<f13> I think its thias, I could be wrong.
<f13> he doesn't irc much
<stickster> I think you're right
<stickster> and again, right
<quaid> ok, on to packaging
<quaid> or back to ...
<quaid> so, let's solve this FAQ thing
<stickster> Heh
<stickster> Let's
<quaid> I'm curious about EvilBob's opinion
<quaid> one question is, does it present harm to the user to have the
FAQ (outdated) on disk?
<stickster> I suppose combing through the history on the wiki page would
tell us the rate of churn and how that's affected the content
<quaid> with a HUGE caveat at the top ... or even in the title -- Fedora
OnDisk FAQ (Outdated by the time you read it)
<stickster> Actually it looks like very low churn over at least the past
3 4 months
<stickster> s/3 4/4
<stickster> grrrr s/3 4/4/
<quaid> yeah
<EvilBob> If the FAQ content does not change that fast I would not think
it would matter
<quaid> the point is, we want to get people to the online version,
anyway
<quaid> that is a doorway to more stuff, where the local is not
<quaid> but a prominent header should do that.
<EvilBob> the problem is most FAQ chages come post-release int he first
30-45 days
<quaid> true
<quaid> but if it's a package, we can update it ... although again, a
pristine install does not have that
<stickster> If we get a FDSCo majority -- ghenry? -- to buy into this,
I'd be into packaging it -- again, either (1) a separate package from
fedora-release-notes, or (2) integrated into the f-r-n PO
<EvilBob> from that point it would be rather static until the next
release
<quaid> stickster: trans requsted separate PO, and I see why :)
<stickster> Big, right?
<ghenry> sperate sounds good
<quaid> stickster: could it be one package but separate PO?
<EvilBob> I would think a stand-alone item would be better
<quaid> another question ... does fedora-faq belong in Core?
<stickster> quaid: Maybe that would be easy if we had more tool guruship
around here, but since I've been doing that work, I don't want to risk
the timeline at this point by trying to jackhammer too much stuff in
<stickster> So my vote is +1 separate package
<ghenry> +
<quaid> k
<EvilBob> +1 also
<quaid> I'm happy with that, easier to update
<-- [splinux] has quit ("Ex-Chat")
<quaid> but can we get it into Core?  does it belong there? *cough* f13
*cough*
<stickster> If it's possible, we can make it available from the default
Web browser -- f13 and I can surely figure out how -- and we can make
fedora-release-notes depend on fedora-faq then
<stickster> Actually, make that fedora-release-faq for good measure
<quaid> related question, do we want to get a new splash page and put
the relnotes a layer deeper?
<quaid> ok, f-r-faq
<stickster> We do but we are running out of time to get all this put
together properly... I would say hold off on that until FC7 when there
is more of an overall appearance push
<stickster> That way we can take advantage of the Art Project's
advancements
<quaid> ok
<stickster> Am I being a wuss?
<quaid> what we've kludged together works
<quaid> no
<quaid> you are being smart
<quaid> this is between final tests anyway
<quaid> I mean, we could "just do it"
<stickster> Did you just say I was a wuss?  :-D
<quaid> but none of us are Web designers :0
<EvilBob> Heh
<EvilBob> OK fine
<quaid> well, what do ya'll think?
<stickster> It was a GREAT mockup by glezos though
<stickster> Need to scale it for low-res, but GREAT nonetheless
<EvilBob> Well I think we can take some ideas and make it happen
<stickster> EvilBob: ....?
<stickster> details?
<quaid> yeah, what dat?
* quaid disrecalls
<EvilBob> Give me a link to the mockup, I should be able to have a
template for the end of the week if that is what we need/want
<EvilBob> I'm just saying if there is somehting out there, why lay low
for a release, let see if we can make the move
<mmcgrath> quaid: ping
<quaid> mmcgrath: pong
* quaid pictures a little stickster on his right shoulder and a little
EvilBob on his left shoulder
<quaid> Do it!
<quaid> Don't do it!
<EvilBob> LOL
--> MrTomLapy (n=mrtom i05m-87-90-247-108 d4 club-internet fr) has
joined #fedora-Docs
<stickster> "I'm gonna lead you down the path of righteousness."
<quaid> stickster: was glezos markup on f-docs-l?
<mmcgrath> I got your ticket, are you ready to promote the cvs moin to
rpm and then into the production wiki?  Or are you just looking for a
newer test version?
<stickster> "I'm gonna lead you down the path that ROCKS."
* quaid goes to dig
<stickster> Not sure, but it's definitely in his wiki area, EvilBob
<stickster> Check there
<quaid> ah, ok
<stickster>
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DimitrisGlezos/SystemHomepage?highlight=%
28glezos%29
<-- Rasther has quit ("Fui embora")
<stickster> Caveats:  There's a lot listed in that page that is
*definitely* not ready to push out to the community, like the GSG, DUG,
and AG
<stickster> But the idea is sound
<quaid> damn, dude, let's recruit glezos to help
<EvilBob> Oh and dfong has some great new icons
<stickster> Yes, but until something makes them official let's stick
with Bluecurve (or whatever standard Fedora is called right now)
<stickster> There is a lot of discussion on fedora-artwork-l about this
topic and it would be wrong of us to jump the shark
<EvilBob> stickster: the blueCurve and beyond stuff is awesome...But I
agree
<stickster> Me too, I'm a big dfong fan
<EvilBob> May I take the lead on this, contact glezos for input and see
what we can come up with?
<quaid> ok
<quaid> EvilBob: yeah, can you reply on list too?
<quaid> 26 july message
<EvilBob> Yup
<EvilBob> will do that
* quaid writes inhis approval, too
<stickster> The good part is, we own /usr/share/doc/HTML/index.html now,
so if we can do it, we can... uh, do it
<quaid> yay!  the little evil guy won
<stickster> Hey wait a minute, that's me
<quaid> stickster: that was my next question
<stickster> Or IS it?
<stickster> Yes?
<quaid> stickster: you never know
<stickster> muahahahaha
<quaid> to make sure we own the page
<stickster> Yup, it's part of the fedora-release-notes package which is
now in fc6t2 IIRC
<quaid> it used to be in release-notes, so influencing CSS etc. was
harder
<stickster> Hmm... hang
<quaid> is that package where we can commit changes to CVS?
<quaid> or do we have to pass through f13?
<quaid> oh, I mean, i can commit changes :)(
<stickster> Yup, we own fedora.css there
* quaid requests f13 to give him ACLs to fedora-release-notes
<stickster> And we can introduce other css as needed
<quaid> oh, you bet
<stickster> We go through f13 as gatekeeper right now, which has not
been painful, I hope he agrees
<quaid> yeah, i'm happy to make a parallel path, if he wants, or I can
piss off :)
<stickster> quaid: We make changes to the package directly in
release-notes/ in Docs CVS, I just alert f13 when it's ready for new
push
* quaid has committed to release-notes before, fwiw
<quaid> oh, ok
<quaid> that's fine
* quaid forgot that, sort of
<stickster> Think of release-notes/devel/ as being the model for what
our packaging may become
<stickster> The spec file lives there, we can build a SRPM, alert a Core
Cabal member like f13, and he imports the .src.rpm to Core after doing
QA and other sanity checks
<stickster> QA == "making sure Paul didn't f*** up again"
<quaid> roger dodger
<EvilBob> hehehe
<quaid> ok, what is left on agenda ... "trans process", "gcj", "AOB"
<quaid> any other business we should tackle?
<stickster> I have 1 AOB, otherwise nope
<quaid> such as if we want to try a different time for the meeting?
<stickster> I mean, uh, Yeah!
<quaid> ok, let's AOB and push the others off
<quaid> you go
<stickster> No, trans is my AOB now that I think of it :-D
<quaid> ah, good
<stickster> We have one or more translators who can't get a second... I
would like to publish their work in good faith for now
<stickster> I know it's going back on our checks & balances idea, but if
it's genuinely hurting our ability to i18n-ize stuff....
<stickster> Case in point, the "nl" translator just spoke to me earlier
about this problem
<EvilBob> Do we have a list of these?
<stickster> He is trying diligently to get more translators involved but
is having limited success
<quaid> ok
<stickster> I don't have a list, but if we want to compile one, I'll put
him on it and we can let others appeal case-by-case
<quaid> it would help recruiting if we got the stuff up
<stickster> That's what I was thinking -- avoid catch-22
<quaid> there is a circle there, and being in test mode, we can risk
un-QA'd trans
<EvilBob> maybe we can atleast ask the general community to review
<stickster> I can blog it to the Planet FWIW
<quaid> right, nothing like an incomplete translation in the public to
attract help :)
<stickster> quaid too, for that matter
<quaid> ok
<EvilBob> I know I have a .nl that would review a translation for us
<stickster> yeah? get him/her into the process!
<quaid> stickster: can you go on a publishing spree?
<stickster> cool
<stickster> I have done a little today, but sure, yeah
<stickster> I'll leave you guys to the relnotes unless you need anything
from me
<quaid> well, then EvilBob and I can focus on the relnotes for a bit
<quaid> yeah 
<quaid> :)
<quaid> i think that's enough for today
<quaid> anything else?
<stickster> Remember that once we have something solid, we can also push
a new package to Rawhide ;-)  yeah baby!
<stickster> Oh, on gcj, I haven't tried it for ages
<stickster> Tommy's been pretty busy but I can ask him to give it a
whirl if he gets a chance
<stickster> FOP is the name of the app, right?  Just so I don't make a
complete fool of myself
<stickster> Fraternal Order of Publishing
<EvilBob> quaid I need about 30 minutes to eat and get the family
situated
* kanarip is .nl
<kanarip> hi everyone :)
<stickster> Hi kanarip
<EvilBob> stickster: I have a .nl on his way to review that translation,
see there he is
<stickster> Cool!
<EvilBob> Next?
<EvilBob> LOL
<couf> kanarip: didn't see you're back
<stickster> couf: I guess we have your second :-D
<stickster> Another problem solved by Bob
<kanarip> couf, pay attention ;P
<couf> kanarip: shall do :-p
<stickster> EvilBob -- bringing people together since 2005
<stickster> quaid: I think that's it then!
<stickster> Best. Meeting. Ever.
* f13 missed the entire thing :/
<stickster> couf: I'll rely on you to get kanarip into the action
<stickster> Or vice versa :-)
<kanarip> i'm already into the action\
<stickster> f13: I told you man, sauce BAD.
<couf> look at that, needs no push, cool ;-)
<quaid> </meeting>
<stickster> *pffffff* <tummy mode="dunlop"/>
<f13> <brain mode="esplode"/>
-- 
Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor    ^     Fedora Documentation Project 
 Sr. Developer Relations Mgr.     |  fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject
   quaid.108.redhat.com           |          gpg key: AD0E0C41
////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

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