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irc log FDSCo/FDP meeting 05-Dec-2006

Here is the entire meeting log.

17:06 < quaid> <meeting>
17:06 < quaid> and sometimes we start a few minutes lae :)
17:06 < quaid> s/lae/late/
17:06  * quaid pings some FDSCo folks
17:06 < quaid> stickster_afk, BobJensen
17:07  * EvilBob waves
17:07 < EvilBob> BobJensen
17:09 < quaid>
17:09 < quaid> as something to work against
17:10 < quaid> ok, I can give the DUG status
17:10 < quaid> I'm holding it up as Publication Editor, not for any
particular re\ason other than ...
17:10 < quaid> i) how do we signify the real content v. Docs/Drafts/?
17:10 < quaid> ii) I want to do a final read through.
17:11 < quaid> we have a problem of content scattered in many locations
17:11 < quaid> and now we have the Docs/Drafts/ URL itself linked from
the splash\ page
17:11 < quaid> which in hindsight was a mistake
17:11 < quaid> we should have done a link to Docs/DesktopUserGuide and
done a red\irect to the draft until publish.
17:12 < quaid> but we need a way to signify a "version for the latest FC
and "this is for the next FC version"
17:12 < quaid> Docs/ is the former, Docs/Drafts/ is the latter
17:12 < quaid> so ...
17:12 < quaid> how does it sound to ...
17:12 < quaid> have a big link on Docs/Drafts/DesktopUserGuide that
links to the \published version on Docs/
17:13 < quaid> then let the Drafts/ go back to being a draft for F*7
17:13 < EvilBob> +1
17:16 < quaid> yeah, hadn't articulated that before, but it makes sense
now that \I write it out :)
17:17 < vnk_fd> is DUG considered completed?
17:18 < quaid> well, except for my publication edit
17:18 < quaid> we can add to it with FC6 content once live, though
17:18 < quaid> publication edit is me reading every page one last time
to normali\ze markup, wordsmith, etc.
17:19 < quaid> I just set that for Thursday this week (07 Dec)
17:19 < quaid> if I don't have time before then, I have some time that
afternoon \to work on it.
17:19 < quaid> the meta problem here is that not enough people can fill
the "Publ\ication Editor" role
17:19 < quaid> partially because the knowledge to do that role is not
updated :7
17:19 < EvilBob> Don't forget we have to also work ont he r-n the end of
the week\ also but they should not take much time
17:20 < quaid> ok, I'm not primary on that but I'll back you all up
17:20 < quaid> also, some of you all out there might want to excercise
new XML sk\ills for that
17:20 < quaid> oh, I ran past the first agenda item
17:21 < quaid> any objections or discussion about folding f-dsco-l into
17:21 < vnk_fd> back to the original proposal for a sec?
17:21 < quaid> vnk_fd: go ahead
17:21 < vnk_fd> do we need perhaps two 'draft' areas, then
17:21  * quaid puts the 0 item on hold
17:21 < vnk_fd> one for FC7
17:21 < EvilBob> I would like us to wait 6 months before closing that
list, see i\f we can make the list useful, if we can't do that in 6
months fold it up
17:22 < vnk_fd> and the other for incomplete stuff *FC6)
17:23 < quaid> EvilBob: what do you see happening on that list in the
17:24 < quaid> EvilBob: at least on thing I think is that I should send
all FDSCo\ agenda, meeting stuff, etc. to f-docs-l at least in parallel
17:24 < EvilBob> quaid: Goes along with what I mentioned earlier about
how we use\ our meetings and lists
17:24 < quaid> EvilBob: is the concern that we bore the regular folks
with boring\ business/
17:24 < quaid> ?
17:24 < quaid> vnk_fd: that is a good question
17:24 < EvilBob> yes
17:25 < quaid> vnk_fd: maybe when we publish, we should do two things:
17:25 < quaid> 1. Copy to Docs/FooGuide
17:25 < quaid> 2. Copy to Docs/Drafts/7/FooGuide
17:25 < quaid> s/7/6/ in this case
17:26 < quaid> EvilBob: so back to the question then, what constitutes
boring bus\iness?
17:26 < EvilBob> the list is open for those that are interested we don't
prevent \list membership on that list really
17:26  * quaid pays for his opening two agenda items at the same time by
handling\ two discussions at the same time.
17:26 < quaid> EvilBob: but what about the obscurity?
17:27 < quaid> that is, I think that most of what is sent to f-dsco-l is
of inter\est to f-docs-l
17:27 < EvilBob> quaid: IMO a lot of the tools and tool chain stuff may
be boring\ to some
17:27  * quaid is appreciating a chance to knock this idea about, since
this is t\he first he is really thinking about it
17:28 < EvilBob> I will let you go back to Item 0, I need to deal with
family stu\ff for a few
17:29 < quaid> ok
17:29 < quaid> I'm willing to not decide yet on that item anyway
17:29 < vnk_fd> ok, then quickly
17:29 < vnk_fd> 1. quaid publishes to Docs/FooGuide
17:30 < vnk_fd> 1. writers do Docs/Drafts/rel.ver./FooGuide
17:31 < vnk_fd> that one should have been 2.
17:33 < quaid> well, sure, anyone can do most of those parts
17:33 < quaid> iirc about the ACLs, that is
17:33 < quaid> vnk_fd: sounds fine
17:34 < quaid> so Docs/Drafts == rawhide
17:34 < quaid> Docs/Drafts/rel.ver. == release branch
17:34 < EvilBob> rawhide == development
17:34 < quaid> oh, foo
17:34 < quaid> :)
17:36 < quaid> are we comfie with rel.ver. == a prime number?
17:36 < quaid> rather than include "FC" "FF" "F*"
17:36 < quaid> in the same way we don't have to say
17:37 < quaid> because Fedora is in the name fedoraproject.org
17:37 < quaid> ?
17:37 < quaid> s/comfie/comfortable/
17:37  * quaid is comfie with that, fwiw
17:37 < vnk_fd> simpler, the better
17:37 < EvilBob> yes
17:37 < EvilBob> less redundancy
17:38 < vnk_fd> that's if you're comfie with 6 as prime number :-)
17:38 < EvilBob> releases will still be numbered once it is Fedora
17:38 < quaid> um, I meant
17:39 < quaid> s/prime/whole/
17:39 < quaid> :)
17:39  * quaid is obviously an English Lit major and not a Math major
17:39 < quaid> ok, so be it
17:40 < vnk_fd> ok
17:43 < EvilBob> OK is item 0 covered?
17:43 < vnk_fd> yes
17:44 -!- mspevack_afk [n=mspevack fedora/mspevack] has quit ["Leaving"]
17:44 < quaid> and item 1
17:44 < EvilBob> quaid: for the record i would like to paste some of my
ideas fro\m our earlier brainstorm
17:45 < quaid> go ahead
17:45 < quaid> what subject?
17:46 < EvilBob> if FDSCo could use it's mailing list more the
"business" meeting\ could be 15-30 minutes and then we shift gears to
work with everyone brainstormi\ng, one on one colab, groups working on
training or what ever is needed it would \make the FDSCo meeting less
important because we talk on list, it would also be m\ore inclusive for
the FDSCo members that are in other time zones would also make \docs in
general more inclusive because we can
17:46 < EvilBob>  take what we work on in the "free time" of the
meetings to the \general docs list also
17:47 < EvilBob> Meeting format idea and how it relates to us having two
mailing \lists
17:47 < quaid> ok
17:48 < quaid> to do that people would actually have to respond and
solve busines\s on list
17:48  * quaid looks at the agenda
17:48 < quaid> I can see stuff that would be best to discuss on list
17:49 < quaid> but it seems like its worth keeping on f-docs-l
17:49 < quaid> EvilBob: what constitutes business then?
17:50 < EvilBob> I have not figured that out yet... LOL
17:50 < quaid> heh
17:50 < EvilBob> Tools and Tool chain, can be a bit geeky to
non-programmer types\ for one
17:50 < quaid> well, i do think more on-list discussion would save us on
some sub\jects
17:51 < quaid> hmm
17:51 < quaid> that would beg a separate tools list, not to push that
content to \fdsco list
17:51 < quaid> even then, hmmm
17:51 < EvilBob> I agree, I would think that we start by pushing to
fdsco-list an\d then if right we move out to docs-list
17:52 < quaid> but the toolchain is not a steering committee exclusive
17:52 < EvilBob> some of the development stuff that we talkabout as
fdsco may not\ be of interest to our writers
17:52 < quaid> also, one of our goals is the production of a toolchain,
so we nee\d one location that everyone can get updates about it from.
17:52 < quaid> it is coincidental that most of the toolchain folks are
on FDSCo
17:53 < quaid> but not exclusive
17:53 < EvilBob> Yes I agree
17:53 < quaid> tsekine and glezos for example have contributed to the
discussion,\ on f-docs-l
17:53 < quaid> patches, etc.
17:53 < EvilBob> open the list up so those that are interested in teh
development\ of our tools and tool chain can join
17:53 < quaid> well, I think I'd first want to hear from the general
list that to\ols needs a separate discussion area
17:53 < EvilBob> +1
17:54 < EvilBob> would be a "refocusing" of the fdsco list IMO
17:54 < quaid> well, not really
17:54 < EvilBob> rather than kill that list and start another
17:55 < quaid> I don't agree with pushing tools to that list, personally
17:55 < quaid> it's more confusing
17:55 < quaid> my instinct is to fold into one list and handle it all
17:55 < quaid> that the more we spread, the more we lose
17:55 < EvilBob> as long as most of our contributors are OK with that I
will be a\lso
17:56 < quaid> can you ask the question on list?  just the general "move
tools or\ leave here" question, not where.
17:56  * quaid doesn't want to overstay his posting for the week
17:56 < EvilBob> Sure i will ask tonight
17:57 < EvilBob> Item 1 closed IMO
17:57 < EvilBob> address again next week based on list input
17:58 < quaid> sure
17:59 < quaid> ok, we've got megacoder and eitch MIA with a couple of
important p\rojects on them
17:59 < quaid> so I'll send email directly to find out what their status
17:59  * quaid has been updating
\ngCommittee/TaskSchedule as we're going along
17:59 < quaid> next we can address from there with present company is
the relnote\s update
17:59 < quaid> EvilBob: anything we need to think about there?
18:00 < EvilBob> on the subject of open projects, we have a large number
of items\ on our taskSchedule that are quite old and should ether be
handed off or flat ou\
t killed
18:01 < EvilBob> in the stalled section
18:01 < quaid> stalled == bad press?
18:01 < EvilBob> Evaluate and integrate RPM Guide into Building Packages
Guide as\ an example
18:02 < quaid> well, we can work on that as part of the working meeting
18:02 < EvilBob> tht item was drafted by ignacio and he is completely
MIA, what d\o we do with that draft?
18:03 < EvilBob> he does not answer emails or phone calls, no response
by postal \mail either
18:04 < EvilBob> I was just wondering if we had a policy on orphaned
18:04 < quaid> we don't yet
18:04 < quaid> we could move them to an orphan section of some kind, but
we don't\ want them to disappear
18:06 < EvilBob> there is at least one item on there (stalled section)
that I kno\w I cold out the guys from the unity project to work on
18:06  * quaid finished his edits to
18:06 < EvilBob> s/cold/could
18:06 < quaid> that is, the updates for the day are done there
18:06 < quaid> one second, let me formally wrap up the business
18:06 < EvilBob> sure
18:07 < quaid> I want to move the FLOSS docs summit back to the list for
discussi\on, John and I have proposed two related directions, and that's
where it sits
18:07 < quaid> maybe this is all in his and my mind, I dunno :)
18:07 < EvilBob> are you editing that page?
18:08 < EvilBob> If so can you please fix my WikiName on the release
notes item
18:08 < EvilBob> BobJensen
18:09 < quaid> ok
18:10 < quaid> done
18:10 < EvilBob> thanks
18:12 < BobJensen> Where are we with the moin update and plone
18:13 < quaid> ok, that was all the agenda items
18:13 < quaid> we can go back to discussing stale stuff
18:13 < quaid> oh, sorry
18:13 < quaid> you are right, there are those items
18:14 < BobJensen> who are the contacts for those items and how much do
we pick a\t the scabs?
18:14 < BobJensen> LOL
18:16 < quaid> ok, on Moin for the docbook and 1.6 stuff
18:16 < quaid> we need someone to help with the Python in Moin Moin and
most like\ly be the maintainer
18:16 < quaid> of that code
18:16 < quaid> for us and for Moin Moin
18:17 < quaid> hmm
18:17 < BobJensen> OK so we need a "help wanted" page on the wiki see if
we can't\ get a snake charmer
18:17 < quaid> I posted to f-infrastructure-;
18:17 < BobJensen> OK
18:17 < quaid> nneed to do the same to f-websites-l
18:17 < quaid> and maybe ask whoever packages it for Fedora
18:18 < quaid> ok, I split the tasks out on the task schedule
18:18 < quaid> the 1.5.6 upgrade is happening already, see the list for
testing r\equest
18:18 < BobJensen> I am going to put an open request out on the Fedora
Unity site\s for a python developer for some stuff we need done there,
maybe we can find som\e one to come over to docs to help also
18:19 < quaid> cool
18:19 < quaid> I posted to f-websites-l
18:20 < quaid> we'll see if that helps, and I'll try to find the
packager from FE
18:20  * quaid doesn't know how to do that
18:20 < BobJensen> I can track that down easy enough, should be on the
owners lis\t
18:21 < BobJensen> When I get the maintainers name I will pass the
contact info o\n to you if you don't find it first
18:23 < quaid> ok, thx
18:23 < BobJensen>
18:24 < BobJensen> It is Thias from FreshRPMs matthias rpmforge net
18:26 < quaid> ah, ok
18:26 < quaid> he probably doesn't want to help with the Python, but
we'll ask :)
18:26 < quaid> hmmm
18:26  * quaid ponders filing all this as a bug request :)
18:27 < BobJensen> BZ is many time the best way to reach him I am told
18:28 < quaid> ok, I'll try that
18:29 < BobJensen> Jon "daMaestro" Steffan is the lead packager for Zope
and Plon\e now, He got a python work out over the last week on another
project with me
18:30 < BobJensen> s/packager/packager for Extras
18:31 < BobJensen> I had not looked at my Docs email I now see the email
from pau\lo about the test
18:34 < BobJensen> quaid: need to take a little break here and put the
kids to be\d, will see you in a few
18:34 < quaid> ok, bug filed
18:34 < quaid> ok
18:35  * quaid works on more stuff
18:42 < cdehaan> Meeting closed or still running?
18:43 -!- cdehaan [n=Cody dynamic-addr-88-162 resnet rochester edu] has
quit []
18:44 -!- jmbuser [n=jmbuser 195 229 25 134] has joined #fedora-docs
18:44 < jmbuser> Good morning!
18:44 < quaid> jmbuser: good morning
18:45 < quaid> see, one reason to hang out, jmbuser eventually wakes up
18:45 < jmbuser> Yawwwwn (tired, not bored)
18:47 < jmbuser> Did I miss anything? :-)
18:52 < quaid> well
18:52 -!- cdehaan [n=cdehaan dynamic-addr-88-167 resnet rochester edu]
has joined\ #fedora-docs
18:52 < quaid> the business stuff was discussed :)
18:52 < quaid> cdehaan: we are done with the agenda and are just in
'working meet\ing' mode
18:52 < cdehaan> OK
18:54 < jmbuser> Very good
18:56 < jmbuser> mether: The customizing yum section is developing
19:00 < quaid> aye
19:00 < quaid> mether is great for a well organized brain dump of good
stuff :)
19:03 < jmbuser> quaid: As is your Docs Projects Workflow - I see I
already have \violated the wiki editing process
19:04 < quaid> uh, oh
19:04 < quaid> jmbuser: what did you do ? :)
19:05 < quaid> jmbuser: we just made that up an hour or so ago, so it is
adaptive\ v. set in stone
19:05 -!- cdehaan [n=cdehaan dynamic-addr-88-167 resnet rochester edu]
has quit [\Remote closed the connection]
19:06 < jmbuser> quaid:Is this a old process (in which I plead ignorance
of the l\aw - I want a lawyer) or a new one (better to seek forgiveness
than ask permissio\n)?
19:06 < jmbuser> quaid: Ok
19:06  * quaid thinks his previous line crossed jmbuser in the ether
19:06 < quaid> yeah :)
19:06 < quaid> jmbuser: tell me what you did differently?  I forget ...
19:07 < jmbuser> quaid: No, it was too good to waste
19:08 < jmbuser> I took the Work Flow Ideas, copied it to my sandbox,
chopped it \up and moved it back to the docsproject area as "ready to
19:12 < quaid> oh, interesting
19:13 < quaid> I consider that to be different
19:13 < quaid> that is project documentation
19:13 < quaid> which is different from "Fedora documentation for
19:13 < quaid> the latter goes in Docs/ and Docs/Drafts
19:13 < quaid> the former in DocsProject/
19:14 < quaid> and you are right, what you did is a 100% legit workflow
for i) ne\w ideas and ii) new project content
19:14 < jmbuser> quaid:That's good
19:15 -!- cdehaan [n=cdehaan dynamic-addr-88-167 resnet rochester edu]
has joined\ #fedora-docs
19:15 -!- cdehaan [n=cdehaan dynamic-addr-88-167 resnet rochester edu]
has left #\fedora-docs ["Ex-Chat"]
19:15 -!- cdehaan [n=cdehaan dynamic-addr-88-167 resnet rochester edu]
has joined\ #fedora-docs
19:20  * vnk_fd must go, battery dying
19:21 -!- vnk_fd [n=vnk 202-74-202-139 static woosh co nz] has quit
19:26 -!- megacoder [n=MegaCode c-71-231-222-164 hsd1 or comcast net]
has joined \#fedora-docs
19:29 < quaid> megacoder: howdy
19:29 < megacoder> who are you ;-?
19:29 < megacoder> hi; long time no C
19:30 < quaid> how are you?
19:31 -!- cdehaan [n=cdehaan dynamic-addr-88-167 resnet rochester edu]
has quit [\Remote closed the connection]
19:32 < megacoder> Well enough; I've been buried deep in the bowels of
Boeing fro\m can til can't.
19:32 < megacoder> That's OK, nobody calls a consultant when things are
19:32 < quaid> ye ha!
19:34 < quaid> megacoder: I was actually going to summon you to find out
if you h\ave made or are going to be able to make progress on ...
19:34 < megacoder> no, and no.  I'm just snowed and have very little
available ti\me.
19:35 < quaid> ok coolio
19:35 < megacoder> I've missed the goings on and am skipping supper to
drop by.
19:36 < megacoder> Of course, at 23 stone, that's not _that_ much of a
19:37 < quaid> :D
19:37 < quaid> well, don't starve much for us
19:38 < quaid> I really should do minutes for these meetings, but I
often forget
19:38 < megacoder> np, I sometimes fast for hours
19:39 < megacoder> I was gonna try to sit in on stickster's XML tutorial
on Satur\day, for moral support
19:40 < jmbuser> quaid:Yes, please do minutes or post the irc - have you
ever use\d irc2html?
19:42 < quaid> nope
19:44 < quaid> jmbuser: i always post the IRC, but it is nice for others
to do a \summary or minutes, but I'm not always that nice
19:44 < jmbuser> quaid: It's a perl script that "pretty prints" chat
logs and con\verts it to html - as the name implies - and the license is
19:45 < jmbuser> quaid:copyrighted, but free use with attribution
19:48  * quaid just pastes the plain text, since he doesn't send HTML
email anywa\y
19:49 < jmbuser> quaid:I volunteer to do meeting minutes, but it's
better if I wa\s actually able to attend the meeting.
19:49 < quaid> jmbuser: :)
19:49 < quaid> jmbuser: we're still struggling with what is going to be
a good ti\me
19:50 < jmbuser> quaid: One of the challenges of a global community -
time zones \and sleep cycles
19:50 < quaid> I'm going to close now and send a final IRC log, since I
need to p\ut some moppets to bed
19:50 < quaid> jmbuser: word
19:51 < jmbuser> Signing off to go to work
19:51 < quaid> we will probably  move to  a rotating schedule of some
kind, so at\ least we are kind in revolution
19:51 < quaid> </meeting>

Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor    ^     Fedora Documentation Project 
 Sr. Developer Relations Mgr.     |  fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject
   quaid.108.redhat.com           |          gpg key: AD0E0C41
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