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IRC Log FDSCo Meeting Jan 03 2006

(21:09:04) quaid: <meeting>
(21:09:23) quaid:
(21:11:53) quaid: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsRawhide
(21:12:00) quaid: if you have any suggestions for improvement, add them
to that page
(21:13:11) quaid: I've forgotten already what we discussed for ideas,
but this page will give sopwith and i something to work from.
(21:13:30) quaid: so we don't even need to talk about that 
(21:13:32) stickster: You mean DocsRawhide?
(21:13:34) quaid: yes
(21:13:35) stickster: nm ok
(21:13:46) mether: quaid, docsrawhide has the confusion of being docs
meant for rawhide
(21:13:52) mether: quaid, you guys need a better name
(21:14:01) stickster: I disagree, that would be RawhideDocs ;-)
(21:14:05) quaid: yep
(21:14:17) stickster: We had one we liked but I think it was taken or
(21:14:32) elliss: There was a list of the ideas on the minutes for a
previous meeting...hunting for the mail
(21:14:46) megacoder: How about "Not ready for prime time docs"?
(21:14:49) mether: stickster, you think people would differntiate
between docsrawhide and rawhideddocs. you are being way too clever
(21:15:13) stickster: Sorry, joking
(21:15:13) quaid: the problem is
(21:15:23) quaid: Docs Rawhide is totally accurate
(21:15:30) quaid: we need to think of documentation as being like the
rest of the code
(21:15:32) mether: quaid, how about we do a "whats wrong with the fedora
docs survey"?
(21:15:43) mether: quaid, end users dont really think like that
(21:15:50) quaid: mether: it's on the agenda
(21:16:07) quaid: mether: docs rawhide is not for your average end user
(21:16:13) stickster: Disco
(21:16:22) quaid: nor is rawhide
(21:16:29) stickster: Disco again
(21:16:46) quaid: we can just make it clear at the top of the page, and
populate RawhideDocs in a similar fashion.
(21:17:05) quaid: I'm sure it will confuse people, but since it's not
really a title for average people, we don't have to consider their
confusion as highly :)
(21:17:18) stickster:
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-dsco-list/2005-December/msg00004.html - IRC minutes from 13 Dec 2005, some DocsRawhide there
(21:17:44) stickster: ideas included: (1) email build errors to doc
maintainers; (2) building branches other than current; (3) listing of
docs on Fedora Project websites
(21:18:19) quaid: adding ....
(21:18:45) stickster:
http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2005-December/msg00045.html was the short version
(21:19:20) quaid: added
(21:20:05) quaid: we can always change the name/term later
(21:20:13) quaid: WetInk or something :)
(21:20:40) quaid: </topic>?
(21:21:07) stickster: node
(21:21:09) stickster: *nod
(21:21:28) quaid: how about ... on to congratulating stickster and
megacoder on their packaging progress!
(21:21:34) stickster: Woo-hoo!!!
(21:21:41) quaid: and see if there is anything you fellas need from us?
(21:21:43) megacoder: I second that emotion!
(21:21:55) stickster: Makefile rules need to be sanitized and moved to
the .common area, but it demonstrably works
(21:22:20) stickster: One thing that has been implicated is the new
rpm-info.xml file
(21:22:22) quaid: what do you think we'll have packaged for test2?
docs-common, example-tutorial ...
(21:22:42) stickster: Actually, example-tutorial may not itself be quite
ready yet! :-D
(21:22:49) quaid: perhaps we can get some testing on the IG if you
provide a package
(21:23:16) stickster: I've made a info2rpminfo.xsl so people can get the
beginnings of a rpm-info.xml file out of their existing doc
(21:24:14) megacoder: Far freakin' out!
(21:24:47) stickster: The idea is: (1) make rpm-info.xml using that XSL
file; (2) fix as necessary; (3) remove <bookinfo> or <articleinfo>
section from existing doc, replace with entity referencing new
fdp-info.xml file; (4) uh, panic because we're not quite Makefile-ready
(21:24:58) quaid: is that ready for testing?
(21:25:02) quaid: heh
(21:25:08) quaid: ok, not quite ready for testing
(21:25:35) stickster: Yeah, not quite... as soon as Tommy reviews my
work, strangles it mercifully in the cradle, and replaces it with
something better in Makefile.common :-D
(21:25:46) stickster: But we are VERY VERY CLOSE.
(21:25:54) megacoder: We will need a new DG section on creating the
rpm-info.xml file.
(21:25:58) stickster: Like, "dude I can smell it" close.
(21:26:05) quaid: *sniff, sniff*
(21:26:06) stickster: megacoder: Thanks for that segue --
(21:26:35) stickster: Because I was going to suggest that Tommy take up
the scrubbing and porting to Makefile.common, while I work on the
(21:26:38) stickster: Now's the time!
(21:26:40) stickster: NOW!
(21:26:46) stickster: I mean, uh... NOW!
(21:26:46) megacoder: stickster; How "reviewable" is what you have now?
(21:27:04) stickster: I didn't want to puff up too much over it, but I
think it's actually not bad
(21:27:20) megacoder: +OK, I get the drift, but I wish you wouldn't
express yourself so passively ;-)
(21:27:23) stickster: It's certainly completely readable and there's
nothing kludged for example-tutorial
(21:27:38) stickster: IOW, I think it will work if you're happy with
what you see
(21:27:48) megacoder: Let it out, man!
(21:27:58) stickster: I ROCK!!!! I MEAN, TRULY ROCK!!!!
(21:28:12) stickster: *pant, heave*
(21:28:17) megacoder: OK, I'll mangle it for a while. I'll keep you in
the loop.
(21:28:22) stickster: :-) cool
(21:28:31) megacoder: Lord, it's hard to be humble when you're perfect
in every way...
(21:29:17) stickster: megacoder: I'm thinking I'll write a quick wiki
page, not just for our reference but as scratch pad for the DG
(21:29:55) quaid: +10 baby!
(21:29:58) megacoder: Good. I'll review it, too.
(21:29:59) quaid: the whole thing
(21:30:27) stickster: Great
(21:30:38) megacoder: And the best darn thing is that if you can type
"make rpm" you can have one.
(21:31:01) stickster: Exactly... also, by the way, that makes one with
the "DRAFT" watermark if you're not building out of official CVS
(21:31:16) quaid: even leeter
(21:31:43) quaid: people have to have clue to un-draft it, at which
point they are like the dude with his own root password -- unsupportable
and on their own and happy about it.
(21:32:26) stickster: disco
(21:32:41) quaid: ok, anything else on this topic?
(21:32:54) megacoder: Um, maybe. 
(21:33:07) stickster: fire away kemo sabe
(21:33:28) megacoder: The infrastructure for doc generation has such a
high degree of nift, that other folks will probably use it.
(21:33:42) quaid: yep
(21:33:45) megacoder: They should really have a painless way to un-draft
(21:34:02) quaid: make not-draft?
(21:34:03) stickster: It's not too painful... you just send a flag to
the rpm building process
(21:34:08) megacoder: But I don't think "make HTMLCSSEXTRA=foo xxx" is
too high.
(21:34:18) quaid: ah, cool, yeah
(21:34:22) megacoder: of a bar.
(21:34:31) quaid: as long as it's well documented
(21:34:48) megacoder: Just wanted to point out that this is dead simple
as long as we don't forget to doc it.
(21:34:53) megacoder: </rant>
(21:35:00) stickster: megacoder: one thing to look for as you're
(21:35:03) quaid: yeah, I'm working up an initial mission statement for
us, and I want it to include this mission -- providing documentation
frameworks and tools, as well as content.
(21:35:18) megacoder: fer sure
(21:35:47) stickster: There's a big nasty sed in there which it might be
good to abstract out in some way... you'll jump on it, I'm sure
(21:36:28) megacoder: Perhaps the "xmlstarlet" might be a good
substitute; I'll consider it.
(21:37:01) megacoder: As we allowed to consider / utilize Fedora Extras
tools for this?
(21:37:03) stickster: Actually, we might even be able to do it with XSL;
I think when I put it in, I wasn't yet comfortable with that idea
(21:37:24) megacoder: Yeah, xmlstarlet is just a convenience wrapper for
(21:37:26) stickster: right
(21:37:59) stickster: OK, sorry quaid
(21:38:27) quaid: </topic>?
(21:38:31) stickster: k
(21:38:42) quaid: beat writers
(21:38:47) quaid: I'm OK with the gaps we have right now
(21:38:56) quaid: and don't want to burn ill will with more active
(21:39:11) ***stickster will brb
(21:39:12) quaid: I think the gaps will show themselves as ppl in those
projects realize they are not getting coverage.
(21:39:40) quaid: so ... I'm thinking of moving this recruiting of beat
writers down to priority 2 and moving on.
(21:39:41) quaid: thoughts?
(21:40:14) megacoder: That should work. The squeeking wheel is the first
to know it needs grease.
(21:41:00) stickster: agree
(21:41:34) quaid: coo'
(21:41:48) quaid: ok, moved and moving on
(21:41:52) quaid: </topic>
(21:42:34) quaid: with the time we have left
(21:42:46) quaid: I move we skip to the end of the priorty 1 items and
discuss the survey results, as suggested
(21:42:53) quaid: and table the rest to update next week.
(21:43:19) stickster: no objection here
(21:43:22) megacoder: I so move.
(21:43:36) megacoder: Er, I second.
(21:43:39) stickster: I *so* third.
(21:43:43) quaid: all right, moving on
(21:44:21) ***stickster and megacoder are quaid's lapdogs today,
(21:44:37) calennert left the room (quit: "heading home").
(21:45:01) stickster: hmm, need to generate more conflict... what to do,
what to do? Ahh! *picks up pie*
(21:46:03) megacoder: NO! Pick up sticks!
(21:46:04) stickster: Speaking of pie in the face, I guess at least a
few people looked at the results/summary
(21:46:29) quaid: first thing to say, I saw those results a month ago or
so (internally) and I took the chance to point out some of my favorite
(21:46:43) quaid: and to point out that the support in beat writers, for
example, is helping.
(21:47:42) stickster: Yes it is... so people *want* a thriving Docs
Project, but other than with (most) beats right now, they just don't
want to *be* the Docs Project
(21:48:05) quaid: did you see my marketing campaign suggestions?
(21:48:12) megacoder: no
(21:48:15) quaid: "Put your survey answers where your mouth is."
(21:48:35) stickster: One day, we'll be like Queen
(21:48:48) quaid: "X% of you think Fedora documentation sucks. If that %
includes you, you can make it suck less."
(21:48:49) megacoder: Well, the first two priorities were "stable" and
"new features". Huh?
(21:48:55) stickster: I loved that band WAY before Wayne's World made
them cool again
(21:49:23) stickster: megacoder: Right, that would be the big tug-of-war
that knocked us out of first place :-D
(21:50:11) megacoder: Well, a survey that puts emphasis on "A" and "not
A" makes me a little cautious.
(21:50:22) quaid: there is one part that I know will help
(21:50:35) quaid: Red Hat has put zero in the way of resources into
Fedora content stuff
(21:50:49) quaid: I seriously expect that to change over the next 12 to
18 months.
(21:51:02) quaid: that will grow the project and have the effect of
attracting more interest.
(21:51:05) stickster: Well, to be fair, they were just giving people a
way to vote for what they want... some people want A, others not A --
same goes for release schedule -- some love 6 mos, others want 1 yr +
(21:51:06) megacoder: Maybe that timing could be front-end loaded?
(21:51:16) quaid: megacoder: I'm trying :)
(21:51:53) megacoder: Do we need to dig a trench to lower the bar
(21:51:53) quaid: conceptually it is already there, that is, I think I
am now doing my job and not just my volunteer work.
(21:51:59) quaid: but that is not in my job description yet, so ...
(21:52:52) quaid: well, that darn Wiki front-end to DocBook stuff would
be the icing
(21:53:09) quaid: but our internal help is on other things that are more
biz important :/
(21:53:43) quaid: I think that is a core, following the experience of
Mozilla devel docs
(21:53:58) quaid: that we need to have a useful Wiki or easier way for
people to work.
(21:54:19) megacoder: I've found a sf.net project for DB import into
OpenOffice; some dedicated RH support for that would be useful and
anti-Wiki enough for me.
(21:54:21) quaid: same with CMS ... that kind of workbench only helps us
to integrate new people more easily, make them productive from the
(21:56:16) quaid: well
(21:56:21) quaid: what can we take out of that survey?
(21:56:44) elliss: A lot of the people filling it were experienced users
(21:56:45) EvilBob: I have a question
(21:56:47) megacoder: <aside> The DB import project url is
http://xml.openoffice.org/xmerge/docbook/ and if/when it works would
allow OO to be the main editing tools. </aside>
(21:57:16) stickster: megacoder: You can see the current stuff in the
openoffice.org-xsltfilter package if you have it installed
(21:57:27) stickster: sorry if you knew that
(21:57:30) EvilBob: Is there a way that the formal RHEL documentation
can be edited to e relevent to Fedora?
(21:57:38) stickster: EvilBob: Unfortunately, not with its licensing, no
(21:57:50) stickster: EvilBob: That's one of the very first things we
had to live with on the project
(21:58:00) ***EvilBob just shakes his head
(21:58:00) quaid: and even if that changes ...
(21:58:07) stickster: You'll probably find several discussion threads
about it early in the list archives
(21:58:11) quaid: it won't solve anything, having a bunch of content and
no one to work on it
(21:58:17) stickster: quaid: good point
(21:58:17) quaid: but
(21:58:21) megacoder: stickster; that's for export, not import.
(21:58:29) quaid: if it comes with help from RH to at least shepherd ...
that would be good
(21:58:43) stickster: Actually it does both as I remember -- there's a
docbooktosoffheadings.xsl and a sofftodocbookheadings.xsl
(21:58:55) stickster: But I don't think it's incredibly full-featured
(21:59:09) quaid: OO.org is something we should encourage, yes
(21:59:13) quaid: when it works right
(21:59:24) quaid: maybe we do need a template or something customized we
can upstream?
(21:59:45) elliss: That might work for tutorials
(21:59:47) stickster: This is something I might like to take another
look at once FC5 goes gold and we have some packages rolling
(21:59:58) stickster: Now that I've had the opportunity to learn some
(22:00:19) stickster: It's no longer Greek, now it's German
(22:01:02) quaid: kewl
(22:01:10) megacoder: Wait until it's linqua franca
(22:02:42) _stickster_ [n=pfrields ip68-110-253-201 dc dc cox net]
entered the room.
(22:02:50) quaid: doppelganger!
(22:03:15) _stickster_: quaid: sorry, laptop had been giving me fits so
I abandoned it for the downstairs office
(22:03:31) stickster left the room ("I'm melting!").
(22:05:40) _stickster_: So...
(22:06:33) _stickster_: Has anyone had any contact re: screencast
scripting etc.?
(22:06:58) ***quaid forgot to send out the call
(22:07:24) _stickster_: oops
(22:08:37) quaid: I'll finish it now
(22:09:02) _stickster_ is now known as stickster
(22:09:17) megacoder: I'm jumping out of quaid lap after that faux-paw!
(22:09:24) megacoder: (sic!)
(22:09:30) quaid: boo hoo
(22:10:20) stickster: OK... are we to AOB now?
(22:11:51) quaid: sure
(22:13:02) stickster: I want to encourage people to talk on the list
about the IG and make sure people buy into the redesign
(22:13:32) stickster: Sonar_Guy has done some work already on the wiki
and hopefully we can build off that design in CVS
(22:13:39) megacoder: Why is a redesign necessary? What is the
shortcoming of the current layout?
(22:14:21) EvilBob: Not so much a redesign, but a remapping
(22:14:35) EvilBob: so it covers all the bases for a new user
(22:14:37) stickster: The introduction and first few chapters are a
little touch and go... the flow is hard for a newb to follow
(22:14:49) stickster: The information is there, it's just not easy to
(22:15:16) stickster: And it's less than explicit about a few things
that are probably /de rigeur/ for long time users but less so for a
(22:15:17) megacoder: I see that the current few chapters are
feature-oriented instead of being task-oriented.
(22:15:31) megacoder: s/current/first/
(22:15:53) stickster: Right, we're trying to make it a better flow
(22:16:21) megacoder: Is now the time for suggestions, or will there be
a different forum?
(22:16:23) stickster: But rather than puff the document up into endless
permutations of "if you already chose A, now do this; if you already
chose B, now do this"... 
(22:16:55) stickster: ...we want to get the flow right, so that it's
"Pick one from column A, one from column B, et al.", followed by "Here
are your choices for column A, etc."
(22:17:05) stickster: I would like to keep them on-list if possible
(22:17:13) stickster: (the suggestions, that is)
(22:17:43) stickster: I think this is a chance for the larger community
to step up and pitch in their comments as well
(22:18:00) stickster: The thing is, we will NEVER please 100% of the
(22:18:09) stickster: If we can make it work for 90% we've done a good
job IMHO
(22:18:12) megacoder: OK. I'm going to lobby for a per-method
walkthrough chapter for each installation media followed by a "choosing
packages" and a "first boot" common chapter.
(22:18:41) stickster: megacoder: Go fer it
(22:19:02) megacoder: as if...
(22:19:15) megacoder: sorry; that looked wrong. withdrawn
(22:19:39) stickster: :-D
(22:20:26) Sonar_Guy: Ok, I am here now.
(22:20:30) elliss: Stickster: can you or SonicGuy post a summary of your
ideas/discussion to the list ?
(22:20:44) Sonar_Guy: Yes I can.
(22:21:07) elliss: Thanks.
(22:21:08) stickster: elliss: I think Sonar_Guy did that yesterday, at
least in part
(22:21:20) stickster: oops, or maybe not (?)
(22:22:09) stickster:
(22:22:10) Sonar_Guy: No not really, but the idea for a layout in on the
wiki http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/InstallationGuide/
(22:23:34) elliss: OK. Feel free to hack the DocBook and post a copy of
the HTML it builds
(22:23:37) stickster: Sonar_Guy: Don't feel like you have to attack this
stuff by yourself
(22:23:44) stickster: You don't have to bring a complete finished
product for us to consider it
(22:23:56) elliss: That may be quicker than replicating it all in Wiki
(22:24:32) elliss: Since it looks like you just want to change the first
couple of files/chapters
(22:24:42) Sonar_Guy: Will do, it is all new to me so this may take a
little bit of time.
(22:25:05) stickster: Sonar_Guy: All the more reason to do the part
that's easy for you now, and let elliss and I pick up the baton as we
move into areas with which you're less familiar
(22:25:12) Sonar_Guy: right most of it will follow your original flow,
it is the installation method I would like to see changed.
(22:25:30) elliss: Sonar_Guy: I'm around here on Thursdays and Mondays
(22:25:50) elliss: Sometimes Wednesday as well
(22:25:51) EvilBob: Yes we cleared a lot of confusion up in FedoraUnity
(22:25:53) Sonar_Guy: Well I got the files from the CVS and it looks
pretty easy to modify once I started looking at it.
(22:26:17) stickster: Right
(22:26:35) stickster: You could simply issue patches to the list
(22:26:51) stickster: Or whatever you're comfortable with -- just post
the files on the wiki as Attachments
(22:27:03) stickster: We could use it as sort of a "drop box" during
this proces
(22:27:17) calennert [n=calenner 66-191-55-096 dhcp gnvl sc charter com]
entered the room.
(22:27:24) elliss: Perhaps attach patches to the BZ bug we have going
(22:27:49) quaid: I've invited the RHEL IG maintainer to watch/chime in
on any list discussion
(22:27:50) Sonar_Guy: Ok, that works for me. I did not really want to
play with CVS write, so I will do that and put the modified files in the
(22:28:50) quaid: </meeting>


Stuart Ellis

stuart elsn org

Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/

GPG key ID: 7098ABEA
GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E  9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA

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