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IRC Log FDSCo Meeting 17 January 2005

(21:11:22) quaid: <meeting>
(21:13:26) quaid:
(21:13:55) quaid: hmm
(21:13:58) quaid: I can't seem to edit that page
(21:14:08) quaid: it says immutable
(21:14:31) elliss: Expired login ?
(21:15:41) quaid: probably
(21:15:48) quaid: never had that happen before
(21:15:52) nman64: No, there seems to be a problem.
(21:16:14) mether: nman64, yes. there is a problem. I am not able to
edit any pages
(21:16:25) megacoder: All pages seem immutable.
(21:16:50) BobJensen: Oh fun
(21:17:10) BobJensen: I hope we did not break the Wiki, I was just
starting to like it
(21:17:11) quaid: all right, well
(21:17:22) quaid: ok, short meeting needed anyway
(21:17:32) nman64: If you want to carry on with the meeting, I'll see
about getting it fixed.
(21:17:51) quaid: the only thing on my mind is getting a replacement
editor-in-chief for the relnotes
(21:17:57) quaid: and getting some more automation around it
(21:18:33) BobJensen: Oh a job is open?
(21:18:49) quaid: depends on what you mean by job :)
(21:18:53) BobJensen: LOL
(21:18:55) mether: BobJensen, its all yours
(21:19:00) quaid: yeah, I'm firing myself because of multiple missed
(21:19:07) quaid: but I need a replacement first
(21:19:14) BobJensen: quaid: If you will train me I will sign up
(21:19:18) quaid: done
(21:19:21) quaid: I'
(21:19:23) quaid: I'
(21:19:25) quaid: arrgh!
(21:19:41) BobJensen: Your studdering
(21:19:49) quaid: BobJensen: I'll get with you in the next few days and
we can work out a co-joined effort for test3, identify what needs
automation and how, etc.
(21:19:51) mether: quaid, are you firing yourself off the chair. we have
a predence in Fedora Extras now
(21:20:01) BobJensen: quaid: works for me
(21:20:09) quaid: mether: only from E-in-C duties for the relnotes
(21:20:10) G2: Sorry guys
(21:20:20) quaid: which I have wanted to hand off for six months anyway
(21:20:50) G2: I need to get one of those "I won't fix your computer, as
you're family" t-shirts
(21:21:16) quaid: I think we can use XIncludes to pull in the <article>s
that Moin Moin outputs
(21:21:17) stickster: quaid: Expired signons on wiki are running
rampant... same thing happened to me last night. Signing on again fixed
it for me
(21:21:19) megacoder: I you don't want to do it, screw it up.
(21:21:24) quaid: that will help with the automation of content
(21:21:35) quaid: stickster: thanks for your save yesterday, btw
(21:21:58) stickster: quaid: Sorry I wasn't comfortable doing the whole
thing... I got enough done for us to get by at least
(21:22:19) stickster: The whole tag thing was confusing me... was I
supposed to tag the new rpm-info.xml in some way to match something
already frozen? You can see my confusion
(21:22:31) StillBob [n=evilbob pdpc/supporter/sustaining/BobJensen]
entered the room.
(21:22:39) stickster: Or maybe not, since I am a dolt
(21:23:07) ***quaid can't find a logout now :)
(21:23:21) quaid: stickster: it didn't exist back then
(21:23:37) StillBob left the room (quit: Client Quit).
(21:23:43) quaid: stickster: the solution would be to fix what I didn't
do, which is to tag the earlier version of the Makefile that didn't need
the rpm0-info,.xml
(21:23:52) stickster: OIC
(21:24:06) quaid: I just made that up, too!
(21:24:17) stickster: Shh... I won't tell anyone if you... D'OH!!
(21:24:28) StillBob [n=evilbob pdpc/supporter/sustaining/BobJensen]
entered the room.
(21:24:37) EvilBob left the room (quit: Nick collision from services.).
(21:25:04) StillBob is now known as EvilBob
(21:25:09) G2: Noone going to say hi? ;-)
(21:25:26) stickster: Hi G2 
(21:25:27) quaid: G2: hi!
(21:25:29) megacoder: HI, G2!
(21:25:30) G2: Ha
(21:25:38) megacoder: HI, G2!
(21:25:39) megacoder: HI, G2!
(21:25:41) megacoder: HI, G2!
(21:25:42) megacoder: HI, G2!
(21:25:43) megacoder: HI, G2!
(21:25:43) megacoder: HI, G2!
(21:25:45) EvilBob: Hi G2 
(21:25:45) megacoder: HI, G2!
(21:25:46) stickster: quaid: Immutable page problem is hitting me too
(21:25:54) stickster: nman64: I am signed in but pages are immutable for
(21:26:01) stickster: I am listed in EditGroup
(21:26:06) nman64: I know. We're looking into it.
(21:26:15) stickster: nman64: OK, sorry to bug ya
(21:26:20) nman64: np
(21:26:31) EvilBob: hey nman64 is somethign wrong with the wiki...
(21:26:36) ***EvilBob hides
(21:26:37) ***stickster checks chatlog... *KONK*
(21:27:06) nman64: Ya know, EvilBob, I'm not sure. Maybe I should look
into it. ;-)
(21:27:26) EvilBob: hehehe
(21:27:49) EvilBob: I bet it is a PHP exploit.. oh never mind
(21:27:54) EvilBob: LOL
(21:27:58) quaid: so, the other thing, which I would want to talk with
nman64 about, but we can fill him in later ...
(21:28:06) quaid: is how to better pull and push content from the Wiki
(21:28:25) quaid: the rest of that schedule of tasks ... well, we can
talk about that, too, first
(21:28:29) quaid: then will do my AOB, I guess
(21:28:41) quaid: So ... looking at our tasks, any updates? in order,
(21:28:46) quaid:
(21:28:51) stickster: Rawhide?
(21:29:07) quaid: DocsRawhide -- still collecting ideas, no new
movement, need a dedicate infrastructure help I reckon
(21:29:15) stickster: *nod
(21:29:16) quaid: Packagin'?
(21:29:35) stickster: Yup... since I'm here, I was going to mention
again how important it is for people to start converting to the new
(21:29:50) stickster:
(21:29:55) megacoder: Essential, even.
(21:30:06) stickster: *disco
(21:30:27) stickster: I.e., builds won't work until you convert, which I
suppose is a great way of getting 100% compliance :-D
(21:31:00) megacoder: I thought that would be the gentlest nudge.
(21:31:05) elliss: Should we be using clog as standard from this point ?
(21:31:19) quaid: clog?
(21:31:22) stickster: make clog
(21:31:34) stickster: It's a great idea, but you can always edit the XML
by hand... using make clog ensures you will get valid XML
(21:31:43) stickster: (So does a DTD-aware editor like vi, Emacs, etc.)
(21:31:59) megacoder: jedit.org!
(21:32:00) stickster: So, yes, use "make clog" when you make a revision
to the document
(21:32:16) stickster: And use "make colophon" if you ever need to add an
additional author, editor, or translator
(21:32:59) stickster: (Currently you also have to manually add an
<author/>, <editor/>, <translator/> element, but that's pretty easy...
we will try to make it easier with an auto-tool
(21:33:40) elliss: Naive question: could the version etc. entities
currently in the main file come from the rpm-info.xml ?
(21:33:51) stickster: They do
(21:33:53) stickster: Oh
(21:33:54) stickster: sorry
(21:34:37) megacoder: All of the "meta-information", such as authors,
versions, and change log info, goes in the rpm info file. Everything
else is derived from that.
(21:34:49) stickster: megacoder: He's talking about DOCBASE, DOCVERSION,
(21:35:12) megacoder: Oh. OK, just advertising, then.
(21:35:13) stickster: So I suppose the answer is "yes, if we write a
li'l sump'n sump'n to write a doc-specific entities file on the side"
(21:35:25) stickster: The answer is also "no, not right now" :-)
(21:35:33) stickster: elliss: But not naive, a GREAT question
(21:35:46) elliss: OK. I'll just be careful to keep the bits in sync
(21:35:57) stickster: I thought the same thing last night when I wrote
one of my emails... "Gee, it sure would be nice if people didn't have to
remember to make 2 changes instead of just 1"
(21:36:11) megacoder: Actually, that fits into the
"fdp-info-${LANG}.xml" file rather well, I think.
(21:36:13) stickster: elliss: So, yes, consider it now on the drawing
(21:36:24) stickster: megacoder: Unfortunately we can't declare entities
(21:36:43) stickster: We would have to have a system entity in the
prolog, and then write it as a separate file
(21:36:45) megacoder: Just an implementation detail, though.
(21:36:58) stickster: The ideer's the same
(21:37:13) quaid: stickster: can you declare XIncludes?
(21:37:45) stickster: I have no idea... does MarkJ ever show up here any
more? let's get an answer from him
(21:37:52) stickster: And kick his tush off FDSCo otherwise
(21:37:53) stickster: :-D
(21:38:01) nman64: Okay, wiki should be fixed. You /might/ need to
logout and back in.
(21:38:27) stickster: nman64: looking good
(21:38:33) quaid: stickster: don't know that we kick people off other
than for negligence of duty ... and without duties, you can't be
negligent, right?
(21:38:37) stickster: right
(21:38:40) elliss: nman64: Thanks.
(21:38:40) quaid: stickster: but we can make a motion to replace his
(21:38:44) stickster: sorry, I was joking only
(21:38:47) quaid: on the active board
(21:38:48) EvilBob: WOW and service with a smile, I am impressed
(21:39:02) quaid: stickster: well, I actually was going to ask
(21:39:12) quaid: if we wanted to review the # of active FDSCo members
and increase it?
(21:39:19) quaid: or do we not want to suck the blood of more people
(21:39:21) quaid: ?
(21:39:29) stickster: Increase, no
(21:39:39) megacoder: TCF?
(21:39:46) stickster: I was thinking the size was a little large for the
number of active participants we have
(21:40:00) quaid: well, the inactive go go inactive
(21:40:05) quaid: s/go go/could go/
(21:40:15) elliss: Reserve members :)
(21:40:24) quaid: active == quaid, stickster, megacoder, g2, elliss 
(21:40:25) stickster: Call 'em up and move 'em out
(21:40:27) quaid: is five big enough?
(21:40:44) stickster: When we have a community of about 10-12, I would
think so :-D
(21:40:51) quaid: there ya go
(21:41:04) megacoder: Is there a current problem we're having due to
(21:41:06) stickster: Bob, Ig, Rahul, Scott, Scott's wife, a couple
(21:41:13) stickster: megacoder: Speak for yourself
(21:41:17) quaid: yeah, gregdek asked me last night if it was time for
me to pass on the hat around here, and I said first we need to get all
the way dressed.
(21:41:56) ***stickster is getting ready to duck out, sorry
(21:41:57) elliss: If there's an obvious candidate, IMO we should
increase the size rather than not 
(21:42:03) elliss: OK. Second naive question on packaging: what will the
end outcome be, i.e. where will the built RPMs go for FC5 ?
(21:42:09) stickster: FE
(21:42:18) EvilBob: OK Kid duty here, will be back as StillBob
(21:42:38) quaid: stickster won't be here next week?
(21:42:39) G2: Size isn't everything boys ;-)
(21:42:44) quaid: on this meeting, I mean
(21:43:00) stickster: Crap, probably not... out of town on business
(21:43:04) quaid: elliss: the thing is, for a while the only cool thing
we had to offer people was this committee
(21:43:06) G2: Ha
(21:43:19) elliss: Suggestion: could we have a script in FC to pull in
the Docs set from FE ?
(21:43:19) stickster: Now we have punch and pie too
(21:43:35) quaid: which docs set?
(21:43:46) elliss: IG, yum, mirror...
(21:44:00) stickster: The only problem with doing it in FC is that FE is
built more as a rolling repo, so changes get communicated out more
(21:44:01) nman64: With properly defined groups, that script would
simply be 'yum groupinstall blah'.
(21:44:26) elliss: nman64: Yes, with a graphical wrapper :)
(21:44:39) stickster: Now that FE works out of the box, it might make a
better fit
(21:45:23) stickster: Plus, you can make a good case that docs are not
"vital" per se to the Core functionality, and the move has generally
been to reduce its size
(21:45:41) elliss: I'd make the opposite case :)
(21:46:00) megacoder: What's another ISO image, more or less?
(21:46:04) Sonar_Guy [n=sglaser ip70-174-58-25 hr hr cox net] entered
the room.
(21:46:25) stickster: :-) The only thing I could see keeping on the Core
disc set would be a copy of the IG, and *maybe* the yum doc
(21:46:53) nman64: The IG? "Congratulations, you've just installed
Fedora Core! Now, here's how to install Fedora Core!"
(21:46:54) stickster: But even that... most people need the IG *before*
they get the ISO's, so I'm not sure that really helps as much as we
might think
(21:47:00) stickster: nman64: disco
(21:47:06) elliss: I was thinking the IG, and the Getting Started Guide
(when ready)
(21:47:10) megacoder: Rel Notes would be appropriate, don't you thing.
(21:47:15) megacoder: s/thing/think/g
(21:47:20) nman64: megacoder: We already have those. ;-)
(21:47:24) stickster: relnotes goes without saying -- or maybe not :-)
-- they're there already
(21:47:30) StillBob [n=bobjense pdpc/supporter/sustaining/BobJensen]
entered the room.
(21:47:31) elliss: GSG may well have something on graphical package
install, I guess
(21:47:34) stickster: included as part of fedora-release pkg
(21:47:36) nman64: GSG, definitely.
(21:48:16) stickster: I think the best thing we could have would be a
prominent mention and a URL at the top of the relnotes, and the FIRST
PAGE that comes up from that link says, "yum fedora-doc-*" or something
to that effect
(21:48:32) stickster: From that point on, it's on their Help menu,
Documentation submenu, etc.
(21:48:50) stickster: Or maybe even put the commands themselves at the
top of the relnotes
(21:49:23) elliss: I think that we could have a couple of dedicated
relnotes sessions
(21:49:27) StillBob: Marty and I are thinking that the GSG would fit
between the IG and Desktop Guides, are we thinking correctly?
(21:49:36) stickster: stickster: I think you're right FWIW
(21:49:41) elliss: StillBob: I thought so
(21:49:46) stickster: GSG is for Grandma
(21:49:56) stickster: Grandma's Starting Guide
(21:50:01) StillBob: LOL
(21:50:03) stickster: OK, really I have to run now
(21:50:05) stickster: Bye all
(21:50:10) StillBob: you are being a stinkster again
(21:50:16) stickster: *snif
(21:50:18) stickster left the room (quit: "Ex-Chat").
(21:51:53) quaid: well well
(21:52:37) quaid: anything else?
(21:52:49) StillBob: quaid: can we set a time for our first meeting on
teh RelNotes?
(21:52:53) quaid: aye
(21:53:30) quaid: StillBob: I'd like nman64 to be there, because much of
what is there right now could use some love before we do it again
(21:53:38) quaid: i.e., I don't want to teach a process that I want to
(21:53:45) StillBob: Sure
(21:53:50) StillBob: that is logical
(21:54:13) quaid: I think there are better ways to get the content out
of the Wiki right now without having to rewrite MOin MOin
(21:54:23) quaid: so ...
(21:54:41) G2: so
(21:54:59) quaid: StillBob: let'
(21:55:06) ***nman64 harkens.
(21:55:08) quaid: s get nman64's attention when he notices us
(21:55:10) quaid: ah ha!
(21:55:19) StillBob: Just let me know, thursdays are the only bad
evening for me normally
(21:55:46) StillBob: I am also commonly available in the day time
(21:58:01) quaid: tomorrow afternoon would be OK for me
(21:58:05) quaid: or Thursday all day
(21:58:17) quaid: Tonight late and Wed. late are also OK
(21:59:04) StillBob: wednesday eve we are hacking zope + plone for
Fedora Unity
(21:59:22) StillBob: Tonight I am doing a Ham Radio Install
(21:59:48) quaid: cool!
(22:00:00) StillBob: lets shoot for thursday in the day if that is ok
with Patrick
(22:00:27) quaid: 11 am PST/1 pm CST?
(22:00:36) StillBob: that is perfect for me
(22:01:13) quaid: we can talk ideas with nman64 first, then let him go
and follow with the details between the two of us about access, details,
(22:01:56) nman64: I can't promise that time, but I'll try my damnedest.
(22:02:55) quaid: ok, if there is a better time?
(22:03:02) quaid: we can always talk with you later, too
(22:03:09) quaid: after StillBob understands stuff better :)
(22:03:22) nman64: Later hours are easiest for me.
(22:03:29) quaid: roger that
(22:04:06) G2: Minutes of that going to be avail?
(22:05:00) StillBob: want to do this wednesday about 10pm cst / 8pm pst?
(22:05:17) StillBob: that I should be able to do
(22:05:19) nman64: That'd be good for me.
(22:05:35) quaid: ok, I'll be here
(22:05:40) StillBob: I can do my fedora unity stuff and then shift gears
(22:05:45) quaid: StillBob: let's keep Thu. open as a time to continue,
just in case
(22:05:58) StillBob: quaid: sounds great
(22:06:10) quaid: </meeting>


Stuart Ellis

stuart elsn org

Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/

GPG key ID: 7098ABEA
GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E  9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA

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