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IRC Log FDSCo Meeting January 24 2006

(21:05:42) quaid: <meeting>
(21:05:53) quaid: greetings amig{o,a}s
(21:06:53) megacoder: Good morning, teacher.
(21:08:33) quaid: oh, gee
(21:09:40) ***quaid had his chat tab stolen
(21:09:45) quaid: my least favorite xchat "feature"
(21:09:54) quaid: Ok, so ...
(21:10:13) quaid: I forget ... are we discussing the OPL?
(21:10:27) quaid: is this a good time to start a first in-meeting
(21:10:46) quaid: because IMO that is a pressing need, for AOB?
(21:11:02) quaid:
(21:11:16) ***quaid adds the OPL research and report to the Open Tasks
(21:11:29) elliss: Do we have a quorum ?
(21:11:42) quaid: elliss, megacoder, stickster, g2, quaid 
(21:11:51) stickster: Here
(21:12:06) megacoder: +sleeping
(21:12:10) BobJensen: quaid: FedoraUnity also has questions abotu the
lic options to make sure we are inline with Fedora-Docs
(21:13:17) quaid: good
(21:13:20) quaid: let's get those all solved
(21:13:34) quaid: I'll role through the open tasks then we can discuss
the OPL, ok?
(21:13:47) elliss: Ok
(21:13:50) Bob-Laptop: Let 'er rip boss
(21:14:08) quaid: DocsRawhide is still taking suggestions :)
(21:14:18) quaid: Packaging is in open season
(21:14:29) quaid: megacoder, stickster: anything for our earn?
(21:15:00) megacoder: I think we're down to the fine-tuning stage.
Stickster, you agree?
(21:15:09) G2: brb. Ben is being a pain tonight. Will NOT sleep!!
(21:15:11) stickster: I had a chance to make a few minor corrections
over the weekend to ensure rpm-info.xml stays sane... but yes, I'd say
that too
(21:15:37) quaid: sweet
(21:15:58) stickster: Still needed -- getting things through Fedora
Extras process... we may need to coordinate this with FESCo
(21:16:10) megacoder: I don't think the CVS release-notes or
installation-guide will build RPM's yet.
(21:16:21) MicroBob [n=upirc pdpc/supporter/sustaining/BobJensen]
entered the room.
(21:17:10) megacoder: stickster; what sort of things?
(21:20:00) stickster: Sorry, I am peeking in momentarily -- I am on
Pacific time and at work right now
(21:20:11) stickster: things = packages
(21:20:41) stickster: megacoder: I'll take a look at relnotes, IG
tonight if I can
(21:22:06) megacoder: OK. I get errors on the translated documents; just
"make rpm" and stand back.
(21:22:51) stickster: megacoder: I see a problem in that ja_JP is
missing some translations
(21:23:07) megacoder: BTW: the relnotes has their own cobbled-up "make
rpm" stuff that I haven't taken out.
(21:23:16) megacoder: s/has/have/g
(21:23:33) stickster: megacoder: You should feel free -- I think quaid
copied them in from my example-tutorial crapfest
(21:23:49) quaid: prolly
(21:24:00) quaid: in fact, the entire Makefile can be replaced, I reckon
(21:24:16) megacoder: Very good. I'll fire up vi and get on it.
(21:24:27) quaid: ok, then
(21:24:31) quaid: General Recruiting
(21:24:49) quaid: I am doing another internal recruiting email, for
Fedora in general.
(21:25:07) stickster: We have had a *LOT* of people signing up
(21:25:10) ***stickster is happy
(21:25:15) quaid: true
(21:25:30) quaid: I continue to think our best recruiting is just the
work that we do
(21:25:33) quaid: and being visible about it 
(21:25:40) quaid: so, in that regards, good on ya'll
(21:25:51) MicroBob: quaid, I have been sending people to the docs wiki
pages when I hear things in #fedora
(21:26:07) quaid: yeah, we need to spearhead moving over to fp.o pretty
(21:26:31) elliss: The Wiki definitely helps.
(21:26:33) quaid: MicroBob: a good on you, too, mate!
(21:26:58) quaid: I am trying hard to get our internal DocBook Wiki
needs to be worked on within a Fedora context as a joint project
(21:27:07) quaid: so, we'll see how that goes, soon I hope
(21:28:17) quaid: ok
(21:28:19) quaid: Wiki2XML
(21:28:31) quaid: nman64, MicroBob, and I discussed this last week
(21:28:40) quaid: I think that XIncludes are going to save us hassle
(21:28:49) quaid: and allow us to have the Wiki be truly canonial for
the beats right now
(21:28:57) quaid: but it requires that we give up pretty tagging
(21:29:02) quaid: to accept whatever the Wiki gives us for now
(21:29:14) quaid: i.e., a Wiki is a lossy compression scheme (to quote
(21:29:56) quaid: so, I'm thinking that we want the Wiki2XML stuff to be
a F Websites project, we give whatever resources and support we have
over there
(21:30:09) quaid: and it will certainly end up requiring Infrastructure
(21:30:39) stickster: *nod
(21:30:53) quaid: Ok, trans
(21:31:04) quaid: Bernd wrote the i18n.redhat.com cgi stuff
(21:31:12) quaid: and he is too swamped to get is integrated right now
(21:31:20) quaid: I asked if I got community resources, could that help
(21:31:23) quaid: and possibly, yes
(21:31:32) quaid: the major hurdle is that Trans is still on i18n.r.c
(21:31:46) quaid: once we are in cvs.fedora together, it's easier to do
the fun stuff
(21:32:06) quaid: and we can set dates for stuff and have it ready, and
the i18n.r.c stuff handles the trans itself
(21:32:18) quaid: we are likely to pick up more languages translated
across all the content, I hope :)
(21:32:55) quaid: megacoder: if you are available to help with any of
this, I'd like to connect you with Bernd, your trust level might be high
enough to get you started on something for it.
(21:33:18) megacoder: Fine. 
(21:33:28) quaid: thxc
(21:33:33) quaid: "Thanks C!"
(21:33:44) quaid: ok, about relnotes
(21:34:01) quaid: we had a first meeting last week, MicroBob is going to
shadow me on the test3 notes and *hopefully* we
(21:34:10) quaid: we'll work up some better automation
(21:34:18) quaid: XIncludes in particular
(21:34:28) quaid: helping
(21:34:57) quaid: if megacoder or stickster or anyone else even
partially groks XIncludes, let's have a discussion on f-websites-l about
how to do this, OK?
(21:35:01) megacoder: You got a pointer about xincludes with DB?
(21:35:08) quaid: it's not really a DB thing
(21:35:11) quaid: it's an XML thing
(21:35:18) quaid: but they can be used like ENTITY but more pow'ful
(21:35:34) quaid: i.e., the target file can be a real XML doc with <!
(21:35:47) megacoder: Not me. I've tried getting it to work with DB but
had trouble adding the xi: namespace to a DB document.
(21:35:51) quaid: and when you XInclude it, you say, make this thing be
a section, appendix, book etc.
(21:35:58) G2: I've played with them, but they're a pain
(21:36:04) quaid: ok, well, that experience will help
(21:36:17) quaid: oh, right, I never reported on xmldiff :)
(21:36:22) G2: WE did it for the Amanda docs conversion to DB XMl
(21:36:22) quaid: which didn't act as I expected
(21:36:39) G2: All the manpages were included with XIncludes
(21:36:39) megacoder: My interest was that every XML snipped could have
its own <!DOCTYPE> referencing the proper DTD and avoid all this
emacs-preloading stuff.
(21:36:51) quaid: megacoder: that's another bennie
(21:37:02) G2: use nxml-mode
(21:37:09) quaid: he uses vi
(21:37:13) megacoder: I'll not use either ;-)
(21:37:20) megacoder: "jedit.org" for me.
(21:37:21) quaid: and other editors such as J-edit
(21:37:22) quaid: ah, right
(21:37:37) quaid: and Conglomerate (RIP?) would want the doctype
(21:37:43) megacoder: But I'd like to get the <!DOCTYPE> inserted so we
could edit files indivirually.
(21:37:50) quaid: yep
(21:37:57) G2: yes, that's a good point
(21:37:58) quaid: so, we're going to work on that for the relnotes
(21:38:04) G2: with entitys you can't
(21:38:05) quaid: the Wiki outputs <articles>
(21:38:07) megacoder: All this for free if we can get xincludes to
(21:38:27) quaid: and we want to pull them in as <chapter>s and
(21:38:32) G2: we should co the amanda docs for tips on this
(21:38:50) G2: we converted manpages to db xml with doclifter and then
used xincludes
(21:38:51) quaid: cool
(21:38:55) quaid: nice
(21:39:30) G2: I have example code if needed
(21:39:35) quaid: please :)
(21:39:43) quaid: so, is this a f-websites-l or f-docs-l discussion?
(21:39:49) G2: docs
(21:39:53) quaid: everyone is on f-docs-l
(21:39:55) quaid: ok
(21:40:01) G2: nowt to do with websites ;-)
(21:40:05) quaid: nman64's script is still working to get us XML
(21:40:09) quaid: well, the pre-part does :)
(21:40:22) megacoder: If we're done with that, you mentioned xmldiff?
(21:40:28) quaid: oh, right
(21:40:42) quaid: it seemed to produce a standard -u diff
(21:40:48) quaid: all the tags were visible, etc.
(21:40:49) quaid: now
(21:40:56) quaid: I don't think the XML matched that well
(21:41:08) quaid: which is why I got to thinking about how to use the
existing XML without cut-n-paste
(21:41:26) G2: is this conversion from the wiki?
(21:41:31) quaid: I'm not sure we need it, with the current 1:1 of files
to Wiki beats
(21:41:37) quaid: yeah, and it had to cross files
(21:41:45) quaid: now it mayn't need to, if XIncludes work
(21:41:50) quaid: but I do want a working xmldiff
(21:41:57) megacoder: Try the different xmldiff options.
(21:42:05) quaid: I forget, stickster and I talked about it
(21:42:14) quaid: we need an IRC logging bot
(21:42:39) Bob-Laptop: quaid, I will set one up for us
(21:42:47) quaid: cool, thanks
(21:43:06) quaid: I have the log around here somewhere, but it would be
nice to grep for it locally and use the logbot output as URL :)
(21:43:12) quaid: or even to google for it, eventually
(21:43:16) stickster: quaid: Which xmldiff are you using? The Logilab
(21:43:24) quaid: see, that's what I can't remember
(21:43:51) stickster: :-) The Logilab one outputs changes in Xupdate XML
spec, or other primitives
(21:43:52) quaid: DecisionSoft one
(21:44:03) stickster: I have the Logilab one in Fedora Extras... ALMOST
(21:44:08) quaid: ok
(21:44:15) stickster: There's a build problem with ppc I haven't licked
(21:44:23) stickster: Or was it x86_64? Anyhoo...
(21:44:24) quaid: we'll use it on another project, I'm hoping we can
just have the wiki be canonical
(21:44:39) quaid: so, since we spoke last
(21:44:46) quaid: I did try to get some action on a few toolchain items:
(21:44:54) quaid: * bugged twaugh about xmlto changes, no response yet
(21:44:59) megacoder: I didn't like that one because I couldn't get a
stable version to play with. When its FE'ed, I'll look at it again.
(21:45:10) quaid: * need to bug agreen about Java details, are those
going to make it into FC5 since the schedule slipped so much?
(21:45:24) mutk [n=mutk pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mutk] entered the
(21:46:22) ***quaid does that latter bugging right now
(21:47:46) quaid:
(21:47:51) quaid: that seems to be the status page
(21:47:55) quaid: it's the Batik problem :)
(21:48:44) quaid: OK, so, I'll let you know when I hear more about that
(21:48:58) quaid: I skipped the f.r.c/docs to fp.o/docs move
(21:49:03) quaid: which I don't have a status on
(21:49:14) quaid: it's waiting on a CMS
(21:49:23) quaid: because we don't want to bother to move the existing
PHP cr4p
(21:49:30) quaid: which has worked quite well, etc.!!!
(21:49:36) ***quaid doesn't disparage crap that works
(21:49:45) quaid: but we don't want to move to the new house with the
dust from the old house, you dig>?
(21:49:51) ***MicroBob bites his lip
(21:49:56) quaid: so, that waits for that
(21:50:03) quaid: MicroBob: or speak out, your choice :)
(21:50:28) MicroBob: not the sysadmin, not my place
(21:50:33) quaid: oic
(21:50:37) quaid: yeah, that's OT :)
(21:50:41) ***quaid is all politick n shit
(21:50:49) MicroBob: yup
(21:51:01) quaid: oh, look, the colophon item is done, I'll move that
down to completed
(21:51:37) G2: Here are your xincludes. Took me a while.
(21:51:38) G2:
(21:52:10) G2: <xi:include href="doctype.xml"/> 
(21:52:13) G2: etc.
(21:52:20) G2: <xi:include href="entities.xml"/> 
(21:52:30) G2: easy
(21:52:47) quaid: does it derive the hierarchy from it's position in the
(21:52:54) G2: Note the book id
(21:52:55) quaid: or do you need to specify what element it is? 
(21:52:57) G2: yes
(21:53:00) G2: <book id="The Official AMANDA Documentation" lang="en"
(21:53:00) G2: xmlns:xi="http://www.w3.org/2003/XInclude";>
(21:54:02) megacoder: Sweet. I'm getting xi: ideas...
(21:54:25) megacoder: I've always hated &entities;
(21:54:29) quaid: yep
(21:54:39) quaid: XIncludes were supposed to be a promise, but I never
knew what for ,but I do now :)
(21:54:48) G2: every include has the doctype at the top
(21:54:51) quaid: ok, 
(21:54:52) quaid: a few minutes for the OPL
(21:54:55) quaid: <aob>
(21:54:57) G2: k
(21:55:07) quaid: So, we're talking about moving over to the OPL without
(21:55:09) G2: automatic scripts?
(21:55:11) quaid: v. the GNU FDL
(21:55:14) ***BobJensen sits back down
(21:55:15) G2: sorry, go on
(21:55:26) G2: See Debian moved
(21:55:32) quaid: yep
(21:55:47) quaid: we've been discussing this since last Summer (Northern
Hemisphere, that is)
(21:56:00) quaid: ain't no time like the present
(21:56:21) quaid: I'd like us to all be ready to discuss, explain
(21:56:29) quaid: why? how? who? when?
(21:56:33) quaid: so, we have:
(21:56:38) quaid: well
(21:56:42) quaid: maybe we need a Wiki page for this?
(21:56:44) quaid: thoughts?
(21:56:46) G2: yes
(21:56:54) BobJensen: I think that would be a good idea
(21:56:58) G2: So much bad about GNU at the moment
(21:57:04) G2: It makes me feel bad
(21:57:08) stickster: Guys, I want to participate but I'm in the middle
of a discussion in a workshop, and will have to duck out
(21:57:10) G2: After what GNU has done
(21:57:19) G2: for us all
(21:57:22) BobJensen: Later stickster 
(21:57:31) stickster: Still monitoring, just away
(21:57:39) quaid: G2: just the GFDL? or are there rumblings about the
GPL v3?
(21:57:56) G2: both
(21:58:01) G2: Just seems mad
(21:58:22) G2: We wouldn't have Linux or any of this stuff without RMS's
(21:58:24) quaid: haven't heard any v3 rumblings, but I'm not listening.
(21:58:26) G2: Anyway....
(21:58:27) quaid: no doubt!
(21:58:38) quaid: I understand why they wrote the GFDL, but I think it
was the wrong decision
(21:58:43) quaid: it's OK to make wrong decisions, we all do it
(21:59:53) G2: so, a wiki page
(21:59:56) quaid:
(22:00:15) quaid: and we can migrate content to DocsProject/OPL
(22:00:21) BobJensen: what are the pluses and minuses of each lic type
(22:00:26) quaid: and that is canonical for our OPL discussions in the
(22:00:37) quaid: BobJensen: risks getting into a put-down of the GFDL
(22:00:49) quaid: how do we do that with out being negative toward
it ... too much, that is?
(22:00:49) G2: this iwll have been discussed before. Can we try to find
a summary somewhere?
(22:01:01) quaid: we are not saying that the GFDL has to be removed, but
that the OPL has to be added
(22:01:27) quaid: here, I'll take a stab at the page
(22:01:39) quaid: and then send a link to f-dsco-l to start discussions
(22:01:50) quaid: we want people to pick up the rumor as we are going,
so that there aren't surprises :)
(22:02:04) quaid: and we get a chance to answer and learn from some
objections, early on, before a Big Announcement
(22:02:08) quaid: sensible?
(22:02:23) megacoder: +1
(22:02:29) quaid: BobJensen: if you aren't on f-dsco-l, I invite you to
join in :)
(22:02:42) quaid: everyone else, too, what the heck!
(22:02:42) quaid: :)
(22:02:55) elliss: G2: Draft Debian statement is here:
(22:03:01) quaid: OK, I'm done for the day


Stuart Ellis

stuart elsn org

Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/

GPG key ID: 7098ABEA
GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E  9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA

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