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IRC Log FDSCo Meeting 28th March 2006

(22:06:28) stickster: <meeting>
(22:06:33) stickster: Hi everybody
(22:06:41) ghenry: hi
(22:06:48) megacoder: goodmorning, teacher
(22:06:52) stickster: Heh
(22:07:10) stickster: I'm going to just roll down the usual list:
(22:08:06) stickster: OPL change... I'm going to take this to the
completed list. The jargon-buster has been purged of non-OPL'able
content, so it can be republished, tonight if possible
(22:08:26) stickster: Is there any other open issue with OPL that
anyone's aware of?
(22:09:21) megacoder: stickster, I don't think you will be able to CVS
(22:09:31) megacoder: In fact, nobody can CVS
(22:09:33) elliss: Right.
(22:09:36) megacoder: gebroken
(22:09:44) stickster: Really? the cvschroot doesn't work?
(22:09:52) megacoder: "ssh denied"
(22:09:53) ***stickster hasn't tried it yet, just catching up with mail
(22:10:23) megacoder: nman64 asserts the server is offline.
(22:10:30) megacoder: Sopwith, got any insight?
(22:10:49) stickster: crapola
(22:11:12) Sopwith: megacoder: CVS just isn't working for now. Sorry...
(22:11:52) megacoder: Could the outage be announced on the Fed ML's?
Lots of folk are down and wondering what's up.
(22:12:05) ***megacoder notices kewl pun
(22:12:37) stickster: Sopwith: How can you laugh, when you know I'm
(22:12:44) ***stickster runs away
(22:13:12) stickster: All right, I'll split that task out so we can
credit OPL work
(22:14:02) stickster: OK, DocsRawhide
(22:14:27) stickster: We need someone to help troubleshoot this. I was
going to try to do this with nman64_away, but I just don't have the time
(22:14:38) stickster: Is there anyone willing to lend Patrick a hand?
(22:14:53) elliss: What is the issue (broadly) ?
(22:15:27) stickster: The webtest.f.r.c host uses (or is supposed to
use) the "build-docs" stuff in our infrastructure/ module to hourly
check out and build drafts of all the active documents
(22:15:53) megacoder: Can non-RH'ers apply?
(22:15:54) stickster: It is clearly not working. Certain things are
being built, like specfiles from the XSL, but the docs are not.
(22:16:13) stickster: megacoder: I don't see why not. In fact, I would
think nman64_away should have some backup admins in the community.
(22:16:32) stickster: Would you like to take up the cause?
(22:17:03) stickster: (there may already be some people with said
access, but I doubt any of them know our toolchain as intimately as
(22:17:09) ***megacoder pauses to reflect
(22:17:32) megacoder: Yeah, get me access and I'll give it a once-over.
(22:18:16) stickster: I don't have any granting privileges there... I
don't even have access myself! Just email Patrick and let your sparkling
personality do the rest. :-)
(22:19:16) Sopwith left the room (quit: "Leaving").
(22:19:18) stickster: ghenry: Recruiting is next up...
(22:19:33) stickster: We seem to have a steady influx of new folks since
pre-FC5, hopefully more soon
(22:19:41) Eitch: hey guys, look at this:
http://www.devin.com.br/eitch/tmp/sex.txt lol
(22:19:52) megacoder: stickster, just to be clear: which patrick?
(22:20:02) stickster: Sorry, Patrick Barnes (nman64)
(22:20:08) megacoder: roger that
(22:20:11) stickster: cool
(22:20:30) stickster: Eitch: meeting in progress, we'll get back to
you :-)
(22:20:44) Eitch: uh, sorry, didn't see
(22:21:08) stickster: ghenry: Contributor list is relatively up to date,
yes? I haven't been able to spend as much time on the list in the last
few weeks as I usually do
(22:22:08) stickster: I know Gavin may be busy parenting :-) he can come
back async when he's ready
(22:22:21) stickster: BobJensen: You out there?
(22:23:25) stickster: I was hoping to get some information on what
people think of how the "wiki as canon" process is working, and what its
future is...
(22:23:35) ghenry: It very out of date
(22:23:43) ghenry: Need to get up to speed with it
(22:23:58) stickster: ghenry: Do you need some help? That might not be a
bad "get acquainted" task for one of our newcomers
(22:24:12) stickster: Easy thing for them, to comb the archives and
check against the wiki list
(22:24:42) ghenry: would be nice
(22:24:54) ghenry: not enough time just now ;-)
(22:25:11) stickster: ghenry: Lance Benjamin <lance benjamin gmail com>
(22:25:28) stickster: Picked at random out of my Evo folder
(22:25:29) ghenry: cool
(22:25:33) ghenry: I'll ping him
(22:25:42) stickster: Just cc the list, we'll cheer him on as needed :-)
(22:26:29) BobJensen: stickster: I am
(22:26:36) stickster: BOB!!!!!!!!!!!!
(22:26:44) BobJensen: sorry was napping
(22:26:55) stickster: (Imagine that like "Norm!!!" on Cheers)
(22:26:59) Eitch left the room (quit: "mv Eitch /home").
(22:27:55) stickster: BobJensen: Do you have any reportable status,
thoughts, musings, etc. on wiki process for docs? Anything on the
(22:28:27) BobJensen: I have some targets set out for a Release Notes
(22:28:36) BobJensen: sent out
(22:28:56) stickster: Oh right, there's a relnotes freeze coming
shortly, yes? 
(22:29:12) BobJensen: we are targeting a freeze and snap shot on Tuesday
(22:29:26) BobJensen: Push to trans on Thursday
(22:29:47) stickster: Cool
(22:30:02) BobJensen: update the web on the 15th and maybe get us our
own package in to the mix so we can push updates to the users
(22:30:52) BobJensen: I would like to split the release notes out of the
fedora-release package
(22:31:03) stickster: BobJensen: That's a fine idea IMHO.
(22:31:35) BobJensen: that way as we have updates we would not goof with
the main release package
(22:32:25) Sopwith [n=sopwith nat-pool-rdu redhat com] entered the room.
(22:32:29) BobJensen: We have a number of open bugs and ites that have
been eailed that I would like to clear up before tuesday
(22:32:42) stickster: We'd just need to coordainte with Jeremy to make
sure that (a) package ends up in Core, probably as a dependency for
fedora-release; and (2) we have some avenue to coordinate updates,
whether with him or otherwise
(22:32:50) elliss: Can that be done without issuing a new release
package to tidy up ?
(22:32:57) Sopwith left the room ("Leaving").
(22:33:08) stickster: elliss: I think that would be the best idea,
(22:33:20) BobJensen: stickster: working with Jeremey or Jesse will be
part of the task IMO
(22:33:29) stickster: BobJensen: Absolutely...
(22:33:58) stickster: This has interesting implications for the
wiki-ized process, though.
(22:34:40) stickster: Does anyone know what the CMS project status is,
generally at least?
(22:35:40) BobJensen: stickster: I think nman64 will have the most info
for us
(22:36:14) stickster: OK, we can hit him up for that later
(22:36:17) BobJensen: stickster: moving the beats to a CMS other than
the Wiki will get a big +1 from me I know
(22:36:46) stickster: A lot of the improvements we need to make for
transitioning canonical docs online for community support revolve around
how well they will support export to DocBook
(22:36:48) BobJensen: IMHO the Wiki works but is not as good as it could
(22:37:10) stickster: I think it depends on how you define "works" :-)
(22:37:32) stickster: If "works" means, "can be used to produce our
docs," then yes, it's great...
(22:37:43) BobJensen: stickster: I am to the point I refuse to question
the value of Wiki in some company
(22:37:49) stickster: Heh
(22:38:07) stickster: I'm a big fan of it in most practice, because it
encourages community support
(22:38:24) stickster: But unfortunately, it's very bad for sharing with
our code system (i.e. build, CVS, etc.)
(22:38:32) BobJensen: true
(22:39:50) ghenry: night all. Too late for me now. Tired old man at
27 ;-)
(22:39:54) BobJensen: zope + plone works quite well, one thing I know we
need is a change-log for it
(22:40:03) BobJensen: Night Mr. Henry
(22:40:12) stickster: 'night ghenry!
(22:40:26) stickster: My personal definition of works, fwiw, is "Can be
used to display and export our docs into DocBook without sucking away
countless hours of spare time for everyone involved" :-D
(22:41:25) elliss: We may need to accept a subset of DocBook for that
(22:41:35) BobJensen: Parenting Duty...Back in 10
(22:41:42) elliss: Other stuff isn't as rich
(22:42:09) stickster: elliss: A CMS module that reads DocBook out of CVS
in order to display it would be the best answer IMHO
(22:42:19) elliss: Sure.
(22:42:45) stickster: Said module would of course have to keep track of
diffs between CMS'ish edits and what's actually in CVS, but that may not
be as bad as it sounds
(22:42:47) elliss: We just have to accept that <command> and
<application> aren't differentiated
(22:42:52) elliss: Stuff like that
(22:43:12) stickster: Yeah, not differentiated on screen, sure
(22:43:44) elliss: Not in markup, because some one has to mark it up...
(22:43:49) stickster: The said diffs could be piled up and exported with
a button for the author to fit into CVS as needed, dropping the patches
from the "todo" list as they're handled
(22:44:04) elliss: It's not an issue with raw DocBook editing
(22:44:28) stickster: Right... it's only an issue with stuff that people
edit directly on the CMS
(22:44:34) ghenry left the room (quit: "oops").
(22:44:40) megacoder: Can someone point me to a definitive grammar for
the wiki markup?
(22:45:53) stickster:
(22:46:29) megacoder: Is this the _only_ wiki mark-up that is accepted?
(22:46:43) stickster: What means "accepted"? :-)
(22:47:06) megacoder: How can I make a wiki->db converter without
knowing the input grammar?
(22:47:39) elliss: megacoder: That's an accepted subset of what MoinMoin
(22:47:41) stickster: MM will accept whatever is listed in its internal
docs... this grammar is the "official" ruleset.
(22:47:59) megacoder: And that would be where?
(22:48:02) stickster: All stuff on the fp.o wiki should adhere to it,
but having said that, of course it probably doesn't.
(22:48:11) stickster: megacoder: Help
(22:48:20) megacoder: halp?
(22:48:31) stickster: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/HelpOnEditing
(22:48:52) stickster: Just another reason to hate wiki-as-canon :-(
(22:49:03) stickster: Oh wait, that was my outside voice. ;-D
(22:49:28) megacoder: I'd rather have .txt or .html as canononical
(22:49:49) megacoder: anything with a formal grammar
(22:49:50) stickster: Well that certainly would simplify the tagging
(22:50:01) stickster: You mean like DocBook? ;-)
(22:50:17) stickster: sorry
(22:50:34) elliss: MoinMoin also accepts ReStructured Text
(22:50:46) megacoder: exacto-pygmalian-ly
(22:51:01) elliss: Which is a simpler markup devised for Python help
(22:51:33) stickster: "simpler" == "less useful as a sub for DocBook"
(22:51:39) stickster: Heh
(22:51:48) ***stickster loves DocBook.
(22:51:56) elliss: Everything is less than DocBook
(22:52:05) stickster: "Maybe you should just MARRY DocBook then!"
(22:52:07) elliss: For good and ill
(22:52:08) stickster: :-D
(22:52:24) stickster: elliss: true dat
(22:52:38) stickster: Once you go DocBook, you never go back
(22:52:55) stickster: OK, before I go too far down *THAT* particular
(22:53:03) elliss: I've almost learned to love Emacs because of it...
(22:53:14) stickster: elliss: Shh, don't tell megacoder.
(22:53:19) stickster: Oh crap
(22:53:23) stickster: Outside voice again
(22:53:28) elliss: *almost*
(22:53:32) stickster: :-D
(22:53:33) megacoder: NOW IF YOU ASK ME (oops)
(22:53:39) stickster: LOL
(22:54:26) stickster: All right, I'm a big proponent of the 50-minute
rule for meetings. Looking down the list at
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/FedoraDocsSchedule, is there
anything pressing we need to address?
(22:54:54) stickster: AOB: DocGuide, by the way -- Karsten and I have
been talking about this already and I imagine we'll do some
head-smashing at FUDCon on this issue as time allows
(22:55:00) stickster: Anybody else going to FUDCon Boston?
(22:56:24) ***quaid notes he has been brainstorming out of band :/
(22:56:38) stickster: Right, we heard the thunder in the distance
(22:56:53) stickster: anyone?
(22:56:55) stickster: anyone?
(22:56:58) stickster: Bueller?
(22:57:11) elliss: It's a long to Boston from here :)
(22:57:16) elliss: long way
(22:57:26) megacoder: too fer north
(22:57:48) elliss: Big ocean. Too far to paddle
(22:58:10) stickster: All right, AOB?
(22:58:22) elliss: Minor.
(22:58:32) stickster: by all means...
(22:58:45) elliss: I need to do a BPB release of the IG a bit later
(22:59:05) elliss: Missing a screen from the Setup Agent that was in the
final release
(22:59:34) elliss: There's also a updated yum tutorial for FC5 in CVS
(22:59:47) stickster: elliss: Right, saw that on list and didn't have a
chance yet to publish
(22:59:56) stickster: Once CVS is back up this shouldn't be a hassle
(23:00:03) elliss: Maybe I ought to grapple with the Web CVS stuff
(23:00:20) stickster: I think that's a fine idea
(23:00:26) elliss: I keep thinking that it'll all be CMS'd soon
(23:00:31) stickster: quaid: Can you facilitate Stuart getting some
appropriate access?
(23:01:21) stickster: elliss: I have no idea when that's going to
happen, but the Infrastructure guys seem to surprise us routinely
(23:01:47) stickster: quaid: Or is this something about which you feel
comfortable with me inquiring?
(23:02:46) stickster: I have the list of uebermenschen, so I can email
them if I don't hear back from quaid shortly
(23:03:04) elliss: I think I may be member of the "web" group in
Accounts - I'll look when I update my SSH keys
(23:03:21) stickster: elliss: excellent, just let me know so I or quaid
can let the Man know
(23:03:47) stickster: elliss: Does that close your AOB?
(23:03:52) elliss: Yes.
(23:03:59) stickster: All righty, one last thing...
(23:04:47) stickster: If anyone has any input for the Fedora Docs talk
at FUDCon, feel free to mail the list, me, or quaid.
(23:04:51) stickster: That's it from here
(23:04:59) stickster: 5...
(23:05:01) stickster: 4...
(23:05:03) stickster: 3...
(23:05:06) stickster: 2...
(23:05:08) stickster: 1...
(23:05:12) stickster: </meeting>


Stuart Ellis

stuart elsn org

Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/

GPG key ID: 7098ABEA
GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E  9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA

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